It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Open challenge to christians....

page: 7
8
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:32 PM
link   
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi
 
I read a commentary from a Christian scholar that said tested is a better word to use instead of tempted ...I believe he was tested to show that He couldn't fail ...Kind of like testing a bridge to carry 50 tons when it was specked in to 100 tons .....They don't test bridges to see if they will brake only to be sure they will withstand what they were designed to do ....peace




posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:36 PM
link   
OP, you're asking for some pretty hefty evidence to counter your "open challenge."
You're challenging "Christians" about a passage that is, quite literally, a "challenge" from the Teacher to his believers, in itself! (^_^)

While I am not a 'believer,' I have some gaining interest in spiritual/religious areas (none in particular over another)
My interpretation of the scripture that you had issue with could be a literal 'mountain' or an 'extreme feat.' Both, are entirely valid from my point of view.

But for any entity that is 'not of this space' to create change in our space, they must abide by the rules and conditions in our space, no?

Some examples that may help give shape to this passage (forgive me, I am going off memory):

1. An orphanage in the early 1900's was to be shut down due to financial woes, and through prayer and fasting by the head minister, eventually enough funds had been donated/gathered to keep the establishment open and still able to care for their children.

2. Although the human body is amazing and extremely resilient by itself, there are numerous cases of cancers/disease that are just too far gone, scientifically, to expect any recovery. However through prayer and some faith, their bodies can be healed. (My grandfather was one of these)

3. A neighbor of mine, highly religious fella, was to lose his farm and his home because his well water had dried up, and was told it would not be possible to revive the well. Him, distraught was left only with his faith, in the face of losing everything he and his family, had worked for. Through prayer and great surprise, his well water had become replenished and is currently doing everything in his power to remain diligent on his land.

4. Canaan Agricultural School is a christian-based organization, which began in the mountains of Korea, after the Korean War. The war had left the land barren, and its people disheartened. Through the work, and faith, of one family, they were able to make an entire mountain (once untenable) into a thriving ecosystem for agriculture, livestock, and wildlife. Beginning in the mountains of Korea, they have become an international effort to rekindle growth and prosperity through hard work and faith in 1st and 3rd world countries all around the globe. Literal mountains have been moved in some of these countries.

5. I currently own a farm, and there was a time, at the beginning, that I required more usable land. Unfortunately, the property was a mess, filled with trash and debris; impossible by normal standards. I, being one of no faith (at the time) saw no purpose to my father's prayers. I thought them to be unfounded and silly; thinking that it was just a pipe-dream seeing as how I had absolutely not enough funding to get the job done by any other means. However, to my surprise after a week of distress, I began receiving calls from neighbors and their friends. First it began with asking if I had some junk metal to scrap, then soon turned into mysteriously ambitious volunteers wanting experience 'getting their hands dirty.' You can imagine my surprise after, a few weeks, I had a new 20 acre field, the exact size I had required! A literal trash mountain was moved!

Now I don't fully subscribe to any faith/religion, but I don't see how it is helpful to keep such a narrow mindset when thinking about things beyond our field of vision. I'm sure that as critical thinkers, in the modern age, that we see that everything has a provable modus operandi, but sometimes the world works in such a way to give credence to things like faith and religion (at least until we can understand them in our own way).

Now, I don't know if I've satisfied your quota of your 'open challenge,' but that was not really my intention. I just think the world and our history are much larger than we could ever imagine. Having a bias in any type of scientific method will invalidate any results (i.e. MONSANTO!!!! rawr)~

Sorry to ramble, I ended up with more than the one-liner I had made up.

-bojimbo



edit on 10-1-2012 by bojimbo because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-1-2012 by bojimbo because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-1-2012 by bojimbo because: typoooooooooooooos



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by borntowatch
 




Now when is a part of the bible to be taken figuratively? Dare I suggest common sense?


What about applying "common sense" to the following....
- Jesus walking on water
- Jesus raising the dead
- Jesus himself rising from the dead
- Jesus returning in the sky followed by an army

Does your common sense tell you those are figurative as well?? Or do you take it literally just because its there in your bible.


I think he could do it, but I don't believe a scrap of it, really. I'm happy to accept that the impossible has remained impossible, although

- The way Lazarus is written that one is probably true, to me
- Resurrection, definitely meant as literal, but I think ascending has much wider implications than what is represented in the scope of the bible
- Returning to the sky followed by an army? Well, that would be literal.

.. it's just that fables are past down like this all the time.

Another example would be the immaculate conception, also

Father & Son & Holy spirit - This is pieced together from scattered remnants of preexisting religions.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Jesus said....


For verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
-Matthew 17:20





Thanks!
edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: grammar

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: added verse in green

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Matthew 4:7-Jesus said to him, "Again, Scripture says, 'Never tempt the Lord your God.' "
Why oh why would I want to tick Him off anymore than I already have? Especially from someone who wouldn't believe what they are seeing? Why don't you ask Him to help you see? You don't have to believe to ask God for something. He'll still hear you.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 10:58 PM
link   
The good thing about Biblical eschatology is the volume of explanations online. Here's a few for you to help you with Jesus' metaphors:

www3.sympatico.ca...

stronginfaith.org... in context refers to casting out evil spirits.

bible.cc...



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:22 PM
link   
I am just curious.
Why are people always challenging Christians?
What is it to you what they believe?
What do you believe?
Who are you people?
What are your backgrounds?
Are you trying to show you are more intelligent than those who believe in Christianity?
Are you searching or trying to discredit?
What is your agenda?

Answer these questions and then your questions may may have some credibility. If not, they are not worth answering because Christians will not change your mind and your will not change theirs. This is how wars have started. Spiritual belief is very personal. Why do you want to destroy it?



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:28 PM
link   
The funniest epic fail many Christians have is they worship Jesus.
not one verse in ANY form says too do that
..effectively rendering them powerless and unable to ascend or do anything at all...since they feel lowly and weak...they knowingly give all their power away lol..
and to whom ??? Likely a deceiver!!
edit on 10-1-2012 by GrinchNoMore because: spelling



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:34 PM
link   
there is a reason why Christ spoke in parables

lets approach this verse in 2 ways: literally and metaphorically

at face value, faith would be a mustard seed that is able to move mountains, like a crazy magic mustard with infinite physical powers!

metaphorically: even if your faith in Christ is as little as a mustard seed, you will be able to tell mountains, or what seems to be like insurmountable obstacles in your life, to move.

Phillippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by RealAmericanPatriot
 




Hey Moderators! Troll Alert!


This is not trolling.

Its right there in your bible. Read Matthew 17:20
And this is the religion section of ATS.


Or are we to assume you dont even have faith as big as a mustard seed, thereby rendering you unable to move mountains.... like Jesus said you could, only if you had enough faith.



edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)


I dislike religion, but I dislike people who get it wrong when trying to bash religion, and get smug about it.

The mountain here is not a physical mountain. You may have troubles in your life, seemingly impossible situations that you find yourself trapped in, and the world crushing down on you feels like an eternal problem that you cannot change. THIS is the mountain.

With the smallest amount of faith, you can overcome this mountain, move it.

that is faith, not actually moving a mountain.

and again, I dislike religion.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:54 PM
link   

Originally posted by mainidh

I dislike religion, but I dislike people who get it wrong when trying to bash religion, and get smug about it.

The mountain here is not a physical mountain.


Then those verses "I and the Father are one" and others calling Jesus the "Son of God" are also only a "figure of speech".



edit on 10/1/2012 by sHuRuLuNi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 01:06 AM
link   
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


How about do something constructive instead of taunting others. Im sure your too much of a coward to criticize a muslim or jew faith. Prove me wrong.



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 01:46 AM
link   
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 

Well, obviously, they will be destroyed by Jesus once he gets here and burn in hell for all eternity along with the muslims, hindus, buddhists etc

I'm guessing that you are being sarcastic and saying this from a point of view where you don't think any of these people are going to hell.

The way you know that this is not supposed to be taken literally is that Jesus does not go on to elaborate on how to go ahead and move mountains.
The term who be a hyperbolic expression to describe getting God's attention.
Our faith should be directed to bringing about the righteousness of God into our circumstances.



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 02:33 AM
link   
Here is a short story that can sum up this argument:

Once upon a time there was an old man named Yu Gong, and he was almost 90 years old. In front of the entrance to his home was two big mountains, for his family, it was very inconvenient for his family to come and go. One day, Yu Gong said to his family, “These two mountains in front of the entrance, they are just too inconvenient. Why not get rid of these mountains?”

His son and grandson heard this and then said right after, “What you say is true, tomorrow we shall start to do it!”

His wife felt it was too difficult to move a mountain and said, “Do you guys see how tall those mountains are? How can you guys move such large mountains? And where will you put so many rocks and stones?”

They all replied, “We only need to work hard, and then we most certainly shall be able to move those mountains. We can take all the stones on the mountains and put them into the sea.” On the second day, Yu Gong and his family began to move the mountain. His neighbor had children; they heard they wanted to move the mountain, and together happily they went to move the mountain with them together. They weren’t scared of strong winds, if it was raining, in summer they feared not heat, in winter they feared not the cold, and everyday they worked nonstop. There was an old man named Zhi Sou (智叟;the wise old man) who saw Yu Gong and his family at work moving the mountain.

He thought that this was ridiculous and said to Yu Gong, “Now you are so old, and you are near the end of the road, is it really possible to move the mountains?”

Yu Gong replied, “You still don’t have a young intelligent grandson. Even though I will die soon, I still have a so, when my son dies, I still shall have a grandson. We will move the stones on the mountain little by little and it shall become smaller. If we work everyday nonstop, why should we not be able to move this mountain?” Zhi Sou heard this, and was speechless.

So you see. People forget that not everything can or should be proven when they deem it convenient. For it takes immense time to produce a diamond from coal or a tempered spirit from lethargy and apathy.
Being a Christian adheres to having faith and emulating greatest qualities of man, some may become, others may become Buddhist, Jewish, Islamic; there are many paths to the same destination.

OS



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 03:36 AM
link   
reply to post by OmegaSynthesis
 


Nice story..

Someone like Jesus makes the impossible possible. People who cant see this may lack the ability to see where someone discovers new things as if all it takes is a bit light being shone in the subject.

If the seed is the faith and the mountain something impossible to move, this is a parable about using faith 'know' that everything is possible.



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 03:58 AM
link   
Over and over Christ addresses His disciples and common audience as "ye of little faith" ...

Seems obvious to me

He was illustrating just HOW deficient and "little" our faith is ... seeing as it doesn't even amount to that of a mustard seed.

Regards,

FTE
edit on 11-1-2012 by followtheevidence because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 04:40 AM
link   

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Can you perform brain surgery? No? then surely brain surgery must be a mythical act of magic then right? Just because you cant do something does not mean it is impossible. I told you many ways to move a mountain, yet you continue to ask for more. Your craving is unquenchable. It is like the parable of the arrow, if you get struck by an arrow do you first ask who shot it or do you remove it? If this was a real life situation you would forego climbing the mountain and instead wave a bible in the air and call christians fools because the mountain would not move. Then when someone tried to give you advice, you would say you want a less intelligent christian to stand before you and agree that everything you say is true and you are their lord and savior.

you are right that i cant move a mountain, but then again i never had any motivation to, if a mountain got in my way i think learning to climb it would be more efficient than trying to move it with my mind. But then again you dont want my advice, you only want advice from someone you can look down at.
edit on 10-1-2012 by filosophia because: (no reason given)


When one has been struck by an arrow, do not remove it without knowing what kind of arrow head was on that arrow.

One maybe able to climb a mountain but not everyone can, and sometimes moving a mountain can create enormous benefits to a society.

Past civilzation maybe able to move a mountain with enough time and manpower, and place that success on their faith in the task, religion or God.

However, modern methods can do the same task alot faster without needing any faith in God and can often do so in less than one generation.

Even faster in the future I would imagine.

Science has proven that it can move mountains faster and more effectively than faith, so far in our history.

Don't need God to what our human creativity, intelligence and science can accomplise until faith in some God proves that it can do it faster and better without using anything resembling our understanding of science and technologies thus far...

Technologically advanced aliens have deceived our kind and created religions placing themselves as God/Gods.

These days, science can even re-attach and replace lost limbs on amputees with those from a corpse. No faith required...

No need to wait for God to heal amputees or move mountains.
edit on 11-1-2012 by ixiy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 06:07 AM
link   

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by SwissMarked
 




You do know that Christianity has Eastern roots correct...


I would'nt mind if Christianity had eastern roots... thats besides the point.
I am addressing the "bible only" christians who believe everything else other than christianity including eastern religions and philosophies are "satanic".

I must say, I find it rather Ironic how none of the "bible only" christians have been ignoring this challenge.


Typical, when cornered the fine tuning comes in so no one is valid unless it fits his purpose here. Is this OP a politician?



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 08:33 AM
link   
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi
 


It always amazes me that unbelief feels an unanswered strawman in the way they want is not an answer



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 08:46 AM
link   

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by Communicationwillfreeus
 


Great to hear of an answer to your prayers.

Truly a personal "mountain" has been moved.


Thank you for your kind words, sir.



posted on Jan, 11 2012 @ 08:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi

Originally posted by Communicationwillfreeus

I am not seeing were it is described as a "stone" mountain as you are portraying it to be and it doesn't mention a hill as a relative comparison, as did you. So you are assuming, from what you used as your example verse that it is a rock.
I recently had a literal "mountain" in my life removed by what I would consider faith. My mom and her church, along with other churches in our area, have been praying for my dad. He even kept a prayer cloth in his wallet from a hospital visit with my mom's pastor, who came to see him after he had tumors and 1/3 of his stomach removed. He was diagnosed with stage 2 stomach cancer after his surgery and has been undergoing chemo and radiation for a few months. We just found out, after Christmas, that dad has no cancer in his body. The doctor kept saying, "I don't understand how it can just be gone." Dad is up to 140lbs after his 127 low.
To prove my story is not B.S. you can type in on the search engine "My Dad Has Cancer" under the moniker "turkenstein"


I am glad your father is better now. May God grant him good health and long life.

As to how the cancer is gone - well you said he had surgery and chemo.
Of course it can be an intervention of God - far be it from me to deny that, but the OP is still about literally moving mountains - it is hard, if viewed in the context, to understand those verses as a metaphor. They pretty strait forward.


edit on 10/1/2012 by sHuRuLuNi because: (no reason given)


Thank you for your kindness. Side note, the stage two diagnosis came after the surgery. The stomach removal part was due to an ulcer. The cancer was a removed growth from the stomach and it was also in the lymph nodes around the stomach. I hopes this clarifies a little bit better. I have a question I am going to post in another reply to the OP.



new topics

top topics



 
8
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join