Open challenge to christians....

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by filosophia

 

nice vid.

Problem is, OP is challenging christians to order things to move around based on faith.... not martial arts.

Or wait, are you suggesting that martial artists are actually breaking things based on christian faith....and not chi-energy or whatever it is that they use?

This is a straw man, allow me to explain. If i break rocks with explosives, you will say i am cheating because i use a machine. if i use my hands, you accuse me of cheating because i did not use my mind. if i use my mind to destroy, alter, transform, or ignore the idea of a rock, you accuse me of cheating by not operating in the material world.

therefore, it is a straw man because you set up in your mind an immaterial force that can not do anything, then you ask for it to do something material which it cant do, then you somehow connect this to a chritians fault.

No, it's not. It is a valid point.

According to the anonymous writers of the biographies of Jesus (commonly known as "gospels") - Jesus CLEARLY SAID THAT.

It was not figurative, he told them, if they but had faith as much as a mustard seed - then they could move mountains around.

Perfectly valid.

Awaiting the christians.

reply to post by filosophia

This is a straw man, allow me to explain. If i break rocks with explosives, you will say i am cheating because i use a machine. if i use my hands, you accuse me of cheating because i did not use my mind. if i use my mind to destroy, alter, transform, or ignore the idea of a rock, you accuse me of cheating by not operating in the material world.

Explosives? Machines? Im sorry... these is an unnecassary diversion.

You will notice that the OP refers SPECIFICALLY to christians with "faith as much as a mustard seed" who can move mountains by merely asking them to do so. It says nothing of explosives or machines. Or was that too difficult for you to get?

I am assuming, you are a christian and have "faith" as much as a mustard seed. If so, speak to a mountain or a rock and ask it to move and let us know. If you are not a christian, you can move and break as many rocks as you please,using machines or explosives, this thread does not apply to you.

therefore, it is a straw man because you set up in your mind an immaterial force that can not do anything, then you ask for it to do something material which it cant do, then you somehow connect this to a chritians fault.

Well, the christians bible says that through enough faith, he can move mountains by speaking to it. Hence the challenge, or a humble request for a demonstration.

No, it's not. It is a valid point.

According to the anonymous writers of the biographies of Jesus (commonly known as "gospels") - Jesus CLEARLY SAID THAT.

So based off ANONYMOUS writers you know what Jesus CLEARLY said. And you say that MY faith is hard to understand?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


have you ever heard of an analogy before? thats what the explosives comment was for. Do you want me to answer the OP using only the phrase "mustard seed?"


I did answer your question with a video, maybe videos are a diversion as well?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Here is how to move a mountain only through faith: sit and meditate for two thousand years and in time erosion will destroy the mountain. Presto, you have done it without lifting a finger. But if you want it done sooner, explosives.

reply to post by filosophia

have you ever heard of an analogy before? thats what the explosives comment was for. Do you want me to answer the OP using only the phrase "mustard seed?"


I did answer your question with a video, maybe videos are a diversion as well?

Listen buddy, I do know that martial artists are capable of superhuman feats through special training and exercises and chi-energy or whatever. I am not debating that here.

And martial artists breaking stuff with their bare hands, does NOT APPLY to christians whos bible tells them that faith as big as a mustard seed lets them move mountains.

This thread APPLIES to those very christians.

I repeat.. this thread applies to christians who believe the bible. NOT non-christian martial artists who believe in something else.

Hope thats clear to you. Thanks.

reply to post by filosophia

Here is how to move a mountain only through faith: sit and meditate for two thousand years and in time erosion will destroy the mountain. Presto, you have done it without lifting a finger. But if you want it done sooner, explosives.

Jesus didnt say anything about using explosives or meditation.
Please read the biblical verse mentioned in the OP. I think you missed it.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


So you are doubting my Christian faith?Who made you the judge of who is Christian or not? I hate to break it to you but there are over 100 sects of christianity and not all take the bible literally.

so you should have named your title "attn only christians who believe the bible hundred percent literally" and at that point i would remove the word 'open' before the word challenge.

if you want a text book bible answer it is easy: moses parted the red sea, only with his faith, thus jesus is correct. Jesus healed the sick with prayer, so if he says he can move mountains, then it must be true. That is at least what a christian would say.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It works the same way as when the Buddha would refer or be refered to in a divine, almost magical way. The Pali Canon says, foe instance, that as soon as Gautama was born, he could walk on two legs and speak fluently. Some things must have an importance attached to them. We lack that mostly in our language. They did this sort of thing in non-Biblical works, especially Jewish historians such as Flavius Josephus.

And yes, I'm fully aware of my use of highly offensive Satanic images. I try to make such Christians and Muslims aware of the meaning and purpose behind them, but it many times falls on deaf ears. I've had one woman refer to my Buddha pendant as "evil" and "sinful", and that also Buddha was a "false god" or something to that extent. My help has been rejected by three different churches, but I cannot help out those who refuse it.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by filosophia

 

have you ever heard of an analogy before? thats what the explosives comment was for. Do you want me to answer the OP using only the phrase "mustard seed?"


I did answer your question with a video, maybe videos are a diversion as well?

Listen buddy, I do know that martial artists are capable of superhuman feats through special training and exercises and chi-energy or whatever. I am not debating that here.

And martial artists breaking stuff with their bare hands, does NOT APPLY to christians whos bible tells them that faith as big as a mustard seed lets them move mountains.

This thread APPLIES to those very christians.

I repeat.. this thread applies to christians who believe the bible. NOT non-christian martial artists who believe in something else.

Hope thats clear to you. Thanks.

You do know that Christianity has Eastern roots correct... just because modern Christian teachings fail to acknowledge that does not mean it is not so... "martial arts" are an Eastern practice and if you actually took the time to read further teachings of Christ you'd find that there are quite a few similarities to Buddhism and Taoism...

The "Three Wise Men" or "Three Kings" or "Magi" or however you wish to refer to them came from the East and if you really want me to dumb it down I can refer you to a Christmas Carol that starts off something like "We Three Kings of Orient are"... so to flat out state that martial arts, astrology (how'd the Three Kings find the baby Christ again), magic, and a whole assortment of other taboo or "heretical" practices are not part of the teachings of Christ is just flat out wrong... they are not teachings of the churches who purport themselves to be representative of Him... but he did warn to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing... which is what most of modern day Christianity is...

From the fundamentalist christian perspective. This verse is meant to be taken as literal with a caveat. It is not the christian doing it. It is the power of God through the christian that accomplishes the feat. Adding to that, it is the spirit of God that moves the christian to speak to the mountain. It is not by the whim of the christian, or a desire to show off, or prove anything to the unbeliever.

Jesus was telling them to have faith that God would give them the ability to accomplish whatever he told them to do. Including, move mountains if necessary.

One needs to read the gospels, and the new testament as a whole in order to keep verses such as this in context.

Originally posted by filosophia

No, it's not. It is a valid point.

According to the anonymous writers of the biographies of Jesus (commonly known as "gospels") - Jesus CLEARLY SAID THAT.

So based off ANONYMOUS writers you know what Jesus CLEARLY said. And you say that MY faith is hard to understand?

And HAVE YOU even understood what I wrote?


I am muslim. I do not subscribe to those ANONYMOUS writings. That is why I stated it.

I cannot say "Jesus said that" because I do not know if he REALLY SAID IT - but Christians believe he did - so, if they believe he did say that, then they should pretty please show us now how they can move mountains. Providing that they have at least as little faith as a mustard seed, that is.


Clear now?

Originally posted by ManjushriPrajna
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

It works the same way as when the Buddha would refer or be refered to in a divine, almost magical way. The Pali Canon says, foe instance, that as soon as Gautama was born, he could walk on two legs and speak fluently. Some things must have an importance attached to them. We lack that mostly in our language. They did this sort of thing in non-Biblical works, especially Jewish historians such as Flavius Josephus.

And yes, I'm fully aware of my use of highly offensive Satanic images. I try to make such Christians and Muslims aware of the meaning and purpose behind them, but it many times falls on deaf ears. I've had one woman refer to my Buddha pendant as "evil" and "sinful", and that also Buddha was a "false god" or something to that extent. My help has been rejected by three different churches, but I cannot help out those who refuse it.

Remember that time that Jesus was all like "man... screw the 'Great Satan Buddha' and then launched an all out battle of biblical proportions on his followers"...

Yeah... me neither...

Last I checked Jesus the Christ wanted people to "reach enlightenment" and achieve "God consciousness"... gee... wherever could he have got that from... hmmm...

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


i already answered the op question: moses parted the red sea, jesus healed the sick, so according to the bible all these things are possible, that is at least the textbook answer. And have you never heard of the theory that the bible could have ben mistranslated? I dont put much faith in what anonymous writers say, and the king james bible was edited by a king, not a very trustworthy profession.

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi

Originally posted by filosophia

No, it's not. It is a valid point.

According to the anonymous writers of the biographies of Jesus (commonly known as "gospels") - Jesus CLEARLY SAID THAT.

So based off ANONYMOUS writers you know what Jesus CLEARLY said. And you say that MY faith is hard to understand?

And HAVE YOU even understood what I wrote?


I am muslim. I do not subscribe to those ANONYMOUS writings. That is why I stated it.

I cannot say "Jesus said that" because I do not know if he REALLY SAID IT - but Christians believe he did - so, if they believe he did say that, then they should pretty please show us now how they can move mountains. Providing that they have at least as little faith as a mustard seed, that is.


Clear now?

Did you hear the Qur'an or read it... and if you read it who wrote it since Muhammad was illiterate... and if you're Muslim why do you not show your religion enough respect to capitalize it...

reply to post by SwissMarked

You do know that Christianity has Eastern roots correct...

I would'nt mind if Christianity had eastern roots... thats besides the point.
I am addressing the "bible only" christians who believe everything else other than christianity including eastern religions and philosophies are "satanic".

I must say, I find it rather Ironic how none of the "bible only" christians have been ignoring this challenge.

reply to post by filosophia


you and the Buddhist fellow are confusing things

using chi to break rocks or shatter/move mountains [ala DBZ]
is an Act of Will founded on Knowledge

not faith.



i've asked the op's question myself many times
and the typical response is " oh no! that would be tempting god!"

but hey, thank you for not using the usually cop out

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

I dont put much faith in what anonymous writers say, and the king james bible was edited by a king, not a very trustworthy profession.

Me neither. But they do. The Christians.
So, if they believe Jesus INDEED SAID THAT - I am awaiting some of them to begin moving the mountains.

Plain and simple... you want a Christian to perform a great miracle... fine... every doubter of every religion as well as all of you that are "too smart to believe in God" get together and come up with one miracle that will shut you all up for all of eternity and I'll perform it myself with the understanding that anyone that requests a second miracle from that point on... that doubts the miracle... or questions how it was performed will be instantly smote by a faithful follower of Christ on the spot...

That being said... not every pissant with a keyboard and a hardon for Jesus get to demand a miracle... so as I said... gather round all the skeptics... come up with something good... and on 12/12/12 I myself will perform it... and when I do... then you all better get on your knees and beg for forgiveness for your insolence... or deal with the repercussions of your lack of faith...

Clock is ticking... better get organized internet Einsteins...

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

I'd like to hear exaclty what phrases in the bible are "figurative" and what phrases are "literal".

From what Ive been seeing all my life, christians love to cherry pick whats figurative/literal based on how easy it is for them to handle.

something like "X or Y will be destroyed" or "thou shall not do ____" is taken as being literal, because its easy for them to imagine or accomplish.

But something like "have faith, move mountains" or "sin with eyes, rip out your eyeballs" is suddenly all figurative.

Why is that???

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Those are valid questions to which I have no answer. There will be some things that other people could more easily accomplish than me, and there may be some things that I could more easily accomplish than some other people. In that case it may seem more plausible for us to have different interpretations as to what is literal and what is figurative. I'm not saying that makes it right to pick and choose, that's just why it happens. It's a matter of convenience for each person, because human nature being itself we look out for ourselves and our ego first. The inconvenience comes when people pick things that are convenient to the individual and the collective begins to look pretty bad then.

I see you mention the eye plucking part. For those who want a reference, it comes from here:

Matthew 5:29 (NIV) "If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

That's rather difficult to want to do. So, I think most people take it figuratively like you said. I'll say this, it's most likely literal, that's the best way I can see to interpret it. People back in the time the text is based had a strong tendency to chop, poke, and pluck body parts. Even though I may interpret it as literal, I'm in no way, shape, or form capable of doing such a thing. Does that mean I'm going to say it's figurative because that'd be convenient? No, I'll admit that I'm incapable of living up to that approach and therefore cannot rip my own eye out. I just can't do it. And, on the same note if we could somehow end up measuring faith, and we say that the passage about moving mountains by faith is literal, I still don't expect the mountain to move because I know for a fact I haven't got that big of a faith.

I may be a Christian but I'm not perfect, I don't have a rock solid understanding of the Bible, and questions like you're asking are some of the same ones I often have myself. I usually just call it like I see it, I've had many discussions with other Christians who got sort of irate at the abstractions and analogies that I've used. I'm open to the fact that I'm wrong, that's one reason I don't bash other people's beliefs. I have no way to know 100% for sure that I'm right, and I'm not going to be arrogant enough to say that I am. That being said, I am a Christian and I'll discuss my faith with those who are curious, and I'll talk about these things without shoving it down your throat. That's why I'm here participating in this thread, I too would like some answers sometimes, and often times answers come from intellectual exchange.