Deputy Leader of UK calls Scots Extremists

Originally posted by jrmcleod
reply to post by alldaylong

 

Yes they had a global empire, but that global empire was failing many years before oil was discovered.

My point is, if Scotland was independent in say 1746 (Jacobite Rebellion), the UK empire would still have failed when it did, if it was even to have come into existence with an independent Scotland. England wouldn't have made the oil discoveries. Scotland would have.

Without Scotland as part of the UK, most of the success of the UK financially in the last 60 years or so would have been Scotlands, not Englands. The discovery of oil in the UK allowed the UK to "boom" and the multi different industries and vast amounts of wealth brought in were because of oil discovered in SCOTTISH waters.

England owes Scotland...not the other way around

EPIC FAIL...

Where did you purchase your crystal ball from? How do you know Scotland would have discovered North Sea Oil? The first rig was operated by BP (Thats BRITISH Petroleum).It was called Sea Gem and it operated off the coast of Lincolnshire ENGLAND.

Epic Fail number 2

reply to post by jrmcleod


Sorry, this thread is about alternate timelines, what-if's or other dimensions.

I am dealing with the situation as it is now and has been for 300 years, you know, when Scotland came begging to form a Union because you bankrupted yourself after the debacle of the Darian scheme.....

The situation as it is now is such that it took English (plus the Welsh and NI..lets not forget them in all this) taxpayer money to prop up two huge Scottish banks that had got greedy, like the rest of them.

reply to post by alldaylong


Here is the link to the Sea gem Rig:-

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by jrmcleod

Yes maybe you have done this argument but you are unable to tell what would have happened in a different time line. It is utter speculation, nothing more.

If Scotland WERE independent at the turn of the centuary

If my Aunty had balls she'd be my Uncle.

That's a totally irrelevant arguement.

Who knows what would have happened?

Arguing about what might have been is one of the most utterly useless things ever, the real here and now are what's important - anything else is escapist fantasy.

reply to post by Freeborn


Well...IF i was told and read from somewhere very credible...in fact it would have to be from the SNP's mouth that we would become fully incorporated with Europe and adopted the Euro etc....

I would vote NO to independence...there you have it

I want a Scotland who answers to herself and looks after herself and keeps herself to herself...

reply to post by alldaylong


David Cameron's father is Scots? So what? This has some relevance here?

No doubt you will use this little snippet when England goes down the tubes.

I'm not interested in the historical divisions or the ancestry of those involved in ruling the UK. Scotland wants independence, it is a right! Scotland has already made its decision on this, witness the almost complete destruction of all other political parties in Scotland.

reply to post by alldaylong


Didn't you know?

All North Sea oil is Scottish, apparently. Regardless if the rig is off England or in English waters, it's still theirs!

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by jrmcleod
reply to post by alldaylong

 

Yes they had a global empire, but that global empire was failing many years before oil was discovered.

My point is, if Scotland was independent in say 1746 (Jacobite Rebellion), the UK empire would still have failed when it did, if it was even to have come into existence with an independent Scotland. England wouldn't have made the oil discoveries. Scotland would have.

Without Scotland as part of the UK, most of the success of the UK financially in the last 60 years or so would have been Scotlands, not Englands. The discovery of oil in the UK allowed the UK to "boom" and the multi different industries and vast amounts of wealth brought in were because of oil discovered in SCOTTISH waters.

England owes Scotland...not the other way around

EPIC FAIL...

Where did you purchase your crystal ball from? How do you know Scotland would have discovered North Sea Oil? The first rig was operated by BP (Thats BRITISH Petroleum).It was called Sea Gem and it operated off the coast of Lincolnshire ENGLAND.

Epic Fail number 2

Commercial extraction of oil on the shores of the North Sea dates back to 1851, when James Young retorted oil from torbanite (boghead coal, or oil shale) mined in the Midland Valley of Scotland

Source

reply to post by jrmcleod


Well, that's not what is going to happen.

Salmond is more pro-EU than Blair or Clegg! He wants Scotland in the EU and has said as much, leading to the EU Commission saying such a thing is not guaranteed as technically they'd need to re-negotiate accession.

But, in all likelyhood the EU will grant you instand membership and you would be another small nation being bullied around by Germany, France and the Brussels Elite.

What would you rather, be part of the Union and at least have some say in affairs, or be swallowed up the EU and be Germany's bitch.

Historically, when Scotland was independant, it was used in the same way. For a long time, you guys were the bitch of France and/or Spain who wanted to curtail England. Scotland invaded England more times than the other way around and usually at the behest of some big nob on the Continent.

Where do i begin here, you see my Mother was Scottish, my Father is English, I was conceived in Wales and born in Cornwall, so i see myself as a Briton belonging to the Island of Britain.

That being said, i am for an Independent Scotland, i believe the Scots are perfectly capable of running their own affairs and being the son of a Scot i probably won't need my Passport.

It would be a mistake for my Scottish brethren to think that North Sea Oil will provide enough capital, there would have to be substantial investment in other areas to make Independence work, that means finance, but finance from whom ?

I think the Scottish Pound would have to be retained and a Central Bank of Scotland given full Fiscal powers.
The European Union is no longer an option now that we see what has happened to Ireland and Greece.
So Scotland will have to go completely Independent.

I am also an English Democrat, we wish to see an English Parliament in which we can discuss English affairs, the Independence of Scotland is therefore mutually desired by our two camps.
The ultimate goal is to end the Act of Union, to reinstate the Nations of Scotland, England and Wales, and then to begin a co-operation of mutual benefit, we are all Brits after all.

There are other issues of course, what happens to UK plc ? what happens to the Commonwealth ? do we keep the Queen or elect a Head of State ?
England could become a Republic once more.
Scotland may choose a Stuart to be the Monarch.
The Windsors may move to Wales.

There is a lot to be untangled and reworked if these plans come to fruition.

Cosmic..

Additional....Nick Clegg..Complete Asshat.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by alldaylong

 

Didn't you know?

All North Sea oil is Scottish, apparently. Regardless if the rig is off England or in English waters, it's still theirs!

Thats not what i am saying, nor have i ever said that...

If you read through the particulars of the "The Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999" and "The Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999", then technically 95% of all so-called "British" oil reserves fall within Scottish Waters. Assuming Scotland was to become independent, then there'd probably be a set of international rulings; probably at the International Court of Justice in The Hague and it would confirm existing legal boundaries. Scotland would then be legitimately entitled to the royalties from the sale of oil, which even in 1974 was seen as dangerous

legislation.gov.uk

reply to post by Numpty1


I agree Scotland has a right to self-determination, the same as anyone.
And as such I agree that there should be a referendum on independance.
I just think it would be the worst thing possible if they voted for it as Scotland would become an insignificant nonentity.....and Scotland deserves more than that.

As I stated previously, there is much wrong with and within The Union - but the complete dissolution of The Union is not the answer.
There is much that unites us and we are stronger together than we are divided.

If Scotland voted for independance then the rest of the UK would demand a complete severance of ties, there would be no cushty little arrangement as was agreed with Ireland.

Just out of interest, ( I don't find the SNP extremist btw) but how many people who vote SNP actually agree with Scottish independence? I only ask because I've voted Plaid Cymru, but don't fully agree with Welsh independence, I find Plaid a credible Left wing alternative to Welsh Labour, so is the SNPs popularity due to the Scots actually wanting independence or general Scottish dissolution with Labour? I don't agree with the break up with the UK, I don't want our dysfunctional family to break up, Who'd get the kids? :-) Obviously, though if it's decided democratically by the Scots then so be it :-)

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by jrmcleod

 

Well, that's not what is going to happen.

Salmond is more pro-EU than Blair or Clegg! He wants Scotland in the EU and has said as much, leading to the EU Commission saying such a thing is not guaranteed as technically they'd need to re-negotiate accession.

But, in all likelyhood the EU will grant you instand membership and you would be another small nation being bullied around by Germany, France and the Brussels Elite.

What would you rather, be part of the Union and at least have some say in affairs, or be swallowed up the EU and be Germany's bitch.

Historically, when Scotland was independant, it was used in the same way. For a long time, you guys were the bitch of France and/or Spain who wanted to curtail England. Scotland invaded England more times than the other way around and usually at the behest of some big nob on the Continent.

As i said...if there was NO choice in the matter, Union or EU...

It would be the Union every day of the week

Originally posted by Cosmic4life

The Windsors may move to Wales.

.

edit on 9-1-2012 by Cosmic4life because: (no reason given)

No if I have anything to do with it :-)

Yes they had a global empire, but that global empire was failing many years before oil was discovered.

reply to post by jrmcleod


THEY??

Interesting use of the word THEY there chap! Dont you mean WE?

Hmmmn

The problems in Ireland? Caused by SCOTTISH landowners
The problems in the Carribean with slave sugar plantations? SCOTTISH land/slave owners
The Australian Abbo massacres? SCOTTISH landowners

It seems that some Scottish people have short memories concerning the expansion of the empire, but I applaude their success at passing the blame of all those things squarely on English shoulders. However they habe had many years of practice at blaming the English for everything so its hardly surprising hey?

However

I still say WE are stronger together, after all, those political national boundaries only exist on man made maps zand in peoples minds who think that they own a specific plot of any land.. Those borders do not exist.. This is ONE ISLAND and belongs to all that dwell on it!

Originally posted by EvanB

This is ONE ISLAND and belongs to all that dwell on it!

Couldn't agree more :-)

Originally posted by jrmcleod

Compare you image with the one I have below (it's the best I could find that you don't have to pay for, sorry):

www.ian-stewart.eu...

It most certainly is no where near 95% of reserves being Scottish. The entire of the Southern Fields would be English and a reasonable slice of the bottom portion of the Northern fields would be English too. You have to remember that the border between England and Scotland is not going to be a straight line out to sea and, depending on the method used, could vary wildly.

Originally posted by jrmcleod
reply to post by Freeborn

 

Well...IF i was told and read from somewhere very credible...in fact it would have to be from the SNP's mouth that we would become fully incorporated with Europe and adopted the Euro etc....

I would vote NO to independence...there you have it

I want a Scotland who answers to herself and looks after herself and keeps herself to herself...

Why? We're all the same people living on one island. We have been a united country for 300 years. We need to stop arguing amongst ourselves and unite against the real problem...the El-ite, the City of London, the Royal family etc etc. I totally agree with devolved powers, because England needs it's own Parliament. We need to have the same approach as the idealism that created the US. A highly regulated, smaller, federal government, with each state having the right to say no to the British Government. US Constitution style.

reply to post by stumason

Historically, when Scotland was independant, it was used in the same way. For a long time, you guys were the bitch of France and/or Spain who wanted to curtail England. Scotland invaded England more times than the other way around and usually at the behest of some big nob on the Continent.

If I could applaud you I would.

I was going to post exactly the same thing.

Yes Scotland has been screwed over by London....but so has every other region within the UK.

Scotland is not unique by any stretch of the imagination.

But Scotland has been used, manipulated, crapped on and let down by continental Europeans throughout their 'independant' history.
They have been incited to invade on numerous occassions and have always been let down.
Yet those evil bastard English have always fogiven them and taken them back into the fold.

And with typical Celtic romanticism every single event in Scottish history has the English portrayed as the bastards, even The Highland Clearances are wrongly attributed to England, and every single fault or problem with Scottish society a result of English policies and negligence etc without even the slightest acceptance of their own repsonsiblity for their own failings.