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Deputy Leader of UK calls Scots Extremists

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posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by Hendrix92TheUniverse
Please forgive me, I am American, who has been all over the world.

And to me, some of the English people, are the most arrogant people on planet Earth.

England, afraid that its once mighty empire might dissolve, into the true states that once existed, will go kicking and screaming into the night, forever cursing those, who would want to rule themselves.

Only my opinion.
edit on 9-1-2012 by Hendrix92TheUniverse because: (no reason given)


And you would be correct. Well said. !




posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Gotcha on Scotland now. I remember when it got it's independence so I was kind of thrown by this thread. So it is not deemed a Nation of it's own? Wow, I thought it was it's own country.

I am all to familiar with Wales. A red .ed step-child to England. Kind of a shame really.

As for Jamaica, I am familiar with there current PM wanting to separate from the Commonwealth. I was just wondering if that was what Scotland was up to.

I have a little more clarity. It's a very complex thing for me as an American to grasp the regional, political aspects of the UK and it's inner workings etc. I know it's straight foward for those who have brought up around it and are informed enough. I prefer to ask people who actually live there and know what they are talking about than just hitting google and believing whatever wikipedia might say.

Thank you for taking the time.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:19 AM
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Just look at the House of Commons, half empty. Just shows how important Scotland is to the Union.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by Flint2011
Gotcha on Scotland now. I remember when it got it's independence so I was kind of thrown by this thread. So it is not deemed a Nation of it's own? Wow, I thought it was it's own country.


It is and it isn't..It's people a certainly a "nation" and they are a self Governing entity.


Originally posted by Flint2011
I am all to familiar with Wales. A red .ed step-child to England. Kind of a shame really.


Wales is a bit different as it was never a real country anyway but a collection of pre-Norman minor Kingdoms, much like England was until Edward united the various tribes, not long prior to the Norman conquest as it happens.


Originally posted by Flint2011
As for Jamaica, I am familiar with there current PM wanting to separate from the Commonwealth. I was just wondering if that was what Scotland was up to.


Jamaica will remain in the Commonwealth, just won't have a monarch if they follow through. India is an example of a country without the Queen as HoS, but still a Commonwealth member.


Originally posted by Flint2011
I have a little more clarity. It's a very complex thing for me as an American to grasp the regional, political aspects of the UK and it's inner workings etc. I know it's straight foward for those who have brought up around it and are informed enough. I prefer to ask people who actually live there and know what they are talking about than just hitting google and believing whatever wikipedia might say.

Thank you for taking the time.


Not a problem! It is genuinely refreshing to see your kind of attitude around these parts



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by Numpty1
 


Unfortunately Parliament is full of self-centred, egotistical carear politicians whose sole interests are personal advancement and gain.
More the reason why we need urgent and radical reform.

It would be no different if it was something to do with N,E. England or any other part of the hinterlands.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by shauny

Originally posted by Hendrix92TheUniverse
Please forgive me, I am American, who has been all over the world.

And to me, some of the English people, are the most arrogant people on planet Earth.

England, afraid that its once mighty empire might dissolve, into the true states that once existed, will go kicking and screaming into the night, forever cursing those, who would want to rule themselves.

Only my opinion.


And you would be correct. Well said. !


Would he now? Why with the gross generalisations? Would you be ok if I said all Scots were alcoholic, wife beating, heroin smoking, ginger skirt wearers? Of course you wouldn't, it's a totally uncalled for generalisation based on nothing but bigotry and tired old stereotypes.

It's a shame that there is so much thinly veiled racism from some Scots on here and even more of a shame it is being allowed, not only on ATS but it seems to be acceptable in society for everyone to rag on the English, but god forbid we do it back...



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Numpty1
 


Unfortunately Parliament is full of self-centred, egotistical carear politicians whose sole interests are personal advancement and gain.
More the reason why we need urgent and radical reform.

It would be no different if it was something to do with N,E. England or any other part of the hinterlands.


Looked full enough when dealing with the High Speed Rail link.
But I agree on a complete overhaul of the system being needed.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


So Jamaica would stil be a commonwealth? Wow, I thought that any nation that did away with the Monarchy was no longer a commonwealth. I am so in the dark. I thought I was just in the shade.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 




Indeed and you know well I tried to get some traction on starting a movement, but it died a death. I would be willing to get it going again, but recruiting is hard as ATS forbids it and most "normal" people are apathetic, at best and at worst, totally ignorant.


I know mate.
Unfortunately I was of little assisstance to you when you tried before.
I think if we were to give it another go we would have to do a lot more prep work first before we even thought about launching anything and 'going public'.



Dude, preaching to the choir! We can certainly try to force change, but it's hard work and people don't like hard work...


Again, I know.



Again, I would be willing to re-invigorate our "movement" however...


Give me some thinking time and I'll get back to you.



Good lord man, don't think like that!


Was a bit 'tongue in cheek lad', lol.



What we should be concentrating on in the first instance is getting us the fudge out of the EU, or at least re-patriate powers. Once we have that nailed, we can then sort out our internal issues.


Most definately, that is the single, most pressing issue that faces the UK at present.



but the reason it failed last time (it was quite well publicised down here btw and many wished the "experiment" of you guys would work as we fancied a bit ourselves) was it didn't address the many layers of Government and would have been a beaurocratic cluster fudge.


It most certainly was hardly publicised, discussed or debated here and it was openly portrayed in MSM as more beurocracy and red tape and freeloaders riding the gravy train.
The vast majority of my friends etc didn't have a clue about it.



I think it's mainly Londoners. I live and work in Berkshire (a Home County and a Royal one no less) and we certainly don't look down on your Northern types. In fact, I work with two Yorkshireman, a Manc and a Scot, amongst others. The worse though for being insular is, as I have said, the Londoners, which makes for very interesting debates on a night shift!


I think it's the 'Chipping Norton set' types that give a bad impression of those from the Home Counties to the rest of the country.
Although I have travelled extensively around the UK I have very little knowledge and experience of the Home Counties and the general perception is that it is full of Hoorah Henry types - if I'd ever bothered to give any real thought then it'd obvious that this assumption, like most assumptions, is likely to be pretty wide of the mark.

I'm sure we can make something of our desire to publicise the benefits of direct democracy for the UK, we just need to plan and structure it in a cohesive and professional manner.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by Numpty1
 




Looked full enough when dealing with the High Speed Rail link.


I think that's The South and The Midlands though, of course it's full...if it was about a HSR link between Leeds and Newcastle it would be empty......on second thought, the discussion simply wouldn't be taking place because it'll never happen.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by Flint2011
So Jamaica would stil be a commonwealth? Wow, I thought that any nation that did away with the Monarchy was no longer a commonwealth. I am so in the dark. I thought I was just in the shade.



It would be IN the Commonwealth, not a commonwealth.. I knwo there are types of commonwealth and I even believe there are some in the US, but it is different to The Commonwealth..

Here, have a link:

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


More likely it was full because their precious views of their second home are about to be ruined. God forbid.

I say this HSR link is going to be good for the economy, and will create within itself 40,000 jobs. Every little helps.
edit on 10-1-2012 by DAZ21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
I think that's The South and The Midlands though, of course it's full...if it was about a HSR link between Leeds and Newcastle it would be empty......on second thought, the discussion simply wouldn't be taking place because it'll never happen.


I know it's OT, but thought I;d clarify that Phase 1 is between Brum and London, Phase 2 is going to extend the line up to Manchester and Leeds.

It will link the North with the South quite nicely. Might help get rid of the "divide"....

Can't quite figure out why it is so expensive or would take so long though. In the 1800's we built railways around the world much cheaper and faster... I'm sure someone is having a laugh when they submitted the quote....



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 01:02 PM
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Is this even viable for Scotland to be independent? Our countries are so in bed with each other its unreal.

What would happen with Scottish defense budget? I know there are some Scottish Regiments in the British Army.
What would happen with Scottish foreign policy? Do you have any diplomats and embassies in other countries?
What would happen with Sport where we work as one underneath the tag Great Britain?
What would happen between the Scottish and English border? Visa wise, and movement of people wise.
Would Scotland become an EU member state and a junior one at that? So just moving all powers to Brussels
What would happen to Westminster regarding all the Scottish MPs?

Probably a million other questions but these are just the main ones I could think of which will cause problems.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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Slightly over 1/3 of Scots (roughly 35%) support independence. HOWEVER if increased devolution (aka "DevoMax") is offered then support for independence drops into the low 20% range.

The reason why the SNP are upset is because they don't really support independence, it's just a ploy they use to get Westminister to send them more money. They know Scotland isent economically stable enough to handle independence especially once the North Sea oil deposits run out then they are screwed.

The SNP would do well to peruse a more crown dependency (like the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) like relationship with the UK rather than full blown independence.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by RebellionOutlaw
Is this even viable for Scotland to be independent? Our countries are so in bed with each other its unreal.

What would happen with Scottish defense budget? I know there are some Scottish Regiments in the British Army.
What would happen with Scottish foreign policy? Do you have any diplomats and embassies in other countries?
What would happen with Sport where we work as one underneath the tag Great Britain?
What would happen between the Scottish and English border? Visa wise, and movement of people wise.
Would Scotland become an EU member state and a junior one at that? So just moving all powers to Brussels
What would happen to Westminster regarding all the Scottish MPs?

Probably a million other questions but these are just the main ones I could think of which will cause problems.


Mr Outlaw,

Some of those are perfectly reasonable questions. Whilst these are not definitive answers - let me attempt to answer some of them.

Is it viable? Clearly, yes, it is viable though no-one suggests there are not going to be issues but many states in existence today have separated from their previous political entities, ie. Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Bosnia from the former Yugoslavia; the Czechs from the Slovaks; and all the states that were formerly part of the Soviet Union.

Defense? Supporters of the Union often tell us that we must take our percentage share of the national debt. I agree that this is fair and equitable. That also means we take our percentage share of the existing British forces equipment, ie. surface ships, helicopters, tanks, aircraft etc.....after all, we also paid our share of those. Clearly, this will be the subject of negotiations but as we don't want any share of the nuclear submarine force, we can perhaps be recompensed in other areas. The Scottish Regiments you speak of were amalgamated by Westminster governments, they will be reconstituted.

Foreign policy? See answer above. It is clear that a Scottish state would assume some office space in existing UK embassies and consulates. It is not unusual for some countries to represent other 'friendly nations' through their diplomatic missions in some parts of the world. I think Scotland and the rest of the UK could work in this manner.

Sport? Hardly a pressing issue. Just as we already do in many sports - we would assume separate identities.

Borders? There would be little change to the current border, if any. We would hardly view the English as a 'hostile' nation who needed to be 'policed' at our border. The change may come on the English side as our immigration policy may be slightly more relaxed as we have a declining population.

EU? Despite the scaremongering - in all likelihood, yes, as a successor state. Some will say that position belongs to the rest of the UK, however the United Kingdom which is the current member, will no longer exist. Perhaps, both Scotland and the rest of the UK (whatever it is then called - clearly United Kingdom will be inappropriate) will have to renegotiate EU membership but can you imagine the EU preventing entry to either of them?

Scottish MPs at Westminster? There would be none. Simple.

Hope that helps.
edit on 10-1-2012 by YeshuaPiso because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by ChrisF231
Slightly over 1/3 of Scots (roughly 35%) support independence. HOWEVER if increased devolution (aka "DevoMax") is offered then support for independence drops into the low 20% range.

The reason why the SNP are upset is because they don't really support independence, it's just a ploy they use to get Westminister to send them more money. They know Scotland isent economically stable enough to handle independence especially once the North Sea oil deposits run out then they are screwed.

The SNP would do well to peruse a more crown dependency (like the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) like relationship with the UK rather than full blown independence.





Hi Chris,

Depends on where you get your polling information.

The most up to date polls have support for Independence at 38%, with the remaining 62% either against, supporters of Devo-Max OR Undecided.

A week is a long time in politics. Two and a half years is a lifetime and it is clear the Westminster parties have still to understand the undercurrents in Scotland. It will be a close run thing when the referendum happens.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by RebellionOutlaw
Is this even viable for Scotland to be independent? Our countries are so in bed with each other its unreal.

What would happen with Scottish defense budget? I know there are some Scottish Regiments in the British Army.
What would happen with Scottish foreign policy? Do you have any diplomats and embassies in other countries?
What would happen with Sport where we work as one underneath the tag Great Britain?
What would happen between the Scottish and English border? Visa wise, and movement of people wise.
Would Scotland become an EU member state and a junior one at that? So just moving all powers to Brussels
What would happen to Westminster regarding all the Scottish MPs?

Probably a million other questions but these are just the main ones I could think of which will cause problems.

Now now it's not fair to dwell on fine details that will cause problems.
Scotland will become independant and ironically enough that's exactly what the UK government wants!!! I mean it's so obvious and Cameron is hitting all the right Scottish nerves to ensure they do vote for independence. Look at what's happening:

(NB I don't like Cameron and I'm a Yorkshireman living in Scotland before you think I'm biased!!!!)

* Antagonising the Scots by getting involved (which as a UK Prime Minister he has every right to do)
* Angering the Scots by saying they have no legal right to have a referendum (he is legally correct)
* Further annoyance by insisting on lifting the legal problem if the referendum is a straight Yes or No (This ensures the angry Scot will vote Yes and stops Salmond having the middle route via a long term maybe yes once the economy is maybe OK to allow a split)
* Even more annoyance by putting a time limit on implementing Yes or No which again will further accelerate a move towards independence.

Cameron knows exactly what he is doing and the Scots will behave like Turkeys at Christmas. Once Scotland is independent then Westminster will be Tory led forever.

You can either believe the pro independence (misguided) fiscal analysis or look at the hard facts. Without the oil Scotland is most definitely worse off out of the UK. Per capita GDP (half of UK!!) + Barnet formula

With the Oil revenues it is marginal, could better could be worse, hard to tell. However, over time as the oil runs out then it will most definitely be worse off.

The oil will start flowing from the Falklands, Irish Sea, Welsh Coast, Liverpool bay and Scotland cannot claim that!!!!!!!!!!

The border will have to close due to massive price differentials that will occur.

Scotland CANNOT be an automatic member of the EU and MUST apply to rejoin. And don't listen to the narro minded anti Europeans who still sing songs about Hitlers balls! European growth is greater than UK and it will recover from the current crisis. Scotland as an independent very very small country will find it almost impossible to compete on its own whilst it waits in the queue to join the EU. If the EU is so horrible how come ONLY THE UK wants to leave whilst singing about WWI and the long gone Empire.

England-Wales armed forces will pull back from the Scottish bases and relocate in Northern England thus preserving employment for its OWN CITIZENS !!! DUH....I mean come on DUH!!!

Scotland will have to apply for membership of the UN and establish, at a huge expense, new embassies around the world.

There would be no more Scottish MP's in Westminster hence why the Tories will be in power forever.

Ironically enough I would rather be in an independent Scotland than an extreme right wing banker led corrupt England where the NHS is private, all schools private, no more local government, forced cheap labour for benefits (ie enforced poverty wages) etc etc. However, I can also do maths and Scotland will not survive. That's the harsh reality. So by staying in the UK we can at least curb these insane Tories at westminster.



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by RebellionOutlaw
 


Actually you no longer have to read my non-definitive answers. It seems Malcr has given you the DEFINITIVE answers - wrong but definitive!



posted on Jan, 10 2012 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by YeshuaPiso
 


You understand the contradictory statement within your opening lines? It is viable? Yes - You then go on to cite a bunch of countries which suffered major economic hardship and untold over forms of suffering due to these splits.
Also, as far as i'm aware none of them were unified as long as 300+ years? and none of them took part in conquering half the world.

So you will have "your share" of ships, etc etc - I don't thinks this will happen, they are Great British - Meaning they are English,Welsh and North Irish - Your share in that would be minimal there would be third world countries with better defense and armed forces than you would have - Meaning you would be a lot more weaker and open to exploitation than you are now.

So you will be independent but want to continue using our embassies? That isn't independence considering you are still relying on us for this - Ok then, just say this situation does take place - have fun paying our rent for us.

I think it is quite an important issue regarding sport, Great British athletes have fought alongside us for generations, our whole history of sport would have to be rewrote to accommodate these changes.

Of course the borders would change, why would we allow an open border policy to an alien nation? You could let anyone come into this country unopposed. Things would not stay the same if you became independent.

EU issue - the United Kingdom would still exist without Scotland - Scotland would have to gain membership to the EU and I hope if this happens it has to go through the same channels of all other countries that seek membership.

Without the Scottish Mps at westminster, the whole of our parliament set up would have to change drastically it would take ages to draw up plans to do this and the whole face of British politics would be different, what my vote is worth, how we vote etc - Without the Scottish Mps at westminster ( i don't know how many are there) there would x amount of empty seats, do they redistribute and make new constituencies, or do they shrink Parliament?




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