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6 Million Jews vs 30 Million Russians Killed During World War 2

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posted on Jan, 8 2012 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by OldCorp

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by Gorman91
 
This thread is about a direct comparison between the number of Jews killed and the number of Russians killed in WW-2...


It's not a very good one. In the first place, if you want to do an accurate sampling you have to determine the population.

In June of 1941, just as Hitler broke the non-aggression pact with the USSR, the Soviet population stood at 196,716,000. At wars' end, the population had been reduced to 170,548,000 - just over 26 million casualties. That's a horrific number of deaths to be sure, but it amounts to only a little more than 13% of the population.

The Jews on the other hand numbered around 9 million in 1939, of which 2/3 were slaughtered - 66.66%!

Mathematics has a way of putting things into perspective doesn't it?


While those percentages are interesting, i do not agree with your mindset. You make it sound like it was a worse tragedy that 66% of all jews died than the 13% russians. (Also that number you used, 6 million jews are shown to be wrong earlier in this thread, the actual number is 1.5 million, while the russian number is closer to the truth, but let´s go with your numbers just to illustrate)

I say a human life is equal to another, less total deaths is certainly preferable. With this, i think most people will agree.

And with that same mindset, it would be better if 100% of all jews died, and only 10% of those russians, as the total number of deaths would be less. (not to mention we would not have the Israel problem today, which amounts to countless deaths still)




posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 12:37 AM
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What is your point? Any death is tragic and made even more tragic when it happens because a charismatic psychopath like Hitler convinced people to go along with him. Stalin and Mao were even worse.

The only point I can see is you are angry at the Jews because the Nazi's killed less of them than they did Russians? That is bizarre to say the least. If that were not the case you would not mention the Jews in nearly every post you have made in your thread; you would have just made the point at first and then discussed how it was for the Russian people. Instead of that you keep going back to the Jews.

Do you really think your being sly?



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by blocula
 


My family were Russian peasant farmers, we only lost 13 of ours according to grandma



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 01:40 AM
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Personally i think the jewish holocaust recevies much more attention then other genocides because of the amount of control they have over the media.
The death's of millions or Russians throughout WWII dont count as genocide because they where by bomb or bullet and not so "controlled" as was the "final soluction"

JUDENFREI or JEWISH FREE nazi Europe

Again,personally, i feel the jewish holocaust was more business than racially or religiously motivated.
The nazi war machine needed funds to keep the war ongoing and to feed the state.The concentration camps were just a means of doing this.
The SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt or the SS economic and administrative department, was responsable for the control and later re-use of personal objects i.e watches, gold, gold teeth, fillings, clothes, shoes, glasses, wedding rings, underwear, silk underwear, literally everything confiscated was taken back to germany in WHVA crates for processing at the Reichsbank in Berlin.

The WHVA had 5 main groups -

Amt A, Finance, Law and Administration
Amt B, Supply, Administration and Equipment
Amt C, Buildings and Works
Amt D, Concentration Camps (SS-TV under SS Gruppenfuhrer Richard Glücks)
Amt W, Economics

The last, "AMT W" was the group responsable for slave labour in the camps, using prisoners in concentration camps for slave labour in factories such as Seimens or Krupps, still household names.

For them it was more economic, not racial, but to hide the fact it was economic they put the racial reasoning first, thus using the religion card to cover the real economic reasons.
Prior to December 1943 the WVHA collected primarily at Majdanek / Lublin Old Airfield personal property of Jews in the Lublin area alone valued at more than 180 million Reichmarks- or at the exchange rate of 2.5 $72 million. That figure included foreign currency of forty-eight countries, with $1 million in US money.

So the holocaust was, apart from a disgusting genocide, simply business for the nazi government, and a very profitable one at that.






edit on 9-1-2012 by andy1972 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 01:40 AM
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...whole point for me after reading this post is, why Palestinians have to be dying till very today cos of all death Jews in WW2? it make no sense.... das it?
or logic not count?
no logic for people...
just for Zionists Freak's...

cos they run all around... F##K them in very meaning!!!



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 02:16 AM
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We like to think we are honestly informed!

www.zundelsite.org...

www.rense.com...


Israel only existed because of holocaust guilt.


We should seriously think again, methinks.

Our notions on history are severely manipulated.

'Living is easy with eyes shut.
Misunderstanding all you see.'
edit on 9-1-2012 by pshea38 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 02:55 AM
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just a thought,but does it matter how many of what race got killed in any war? ussr was (and still is) a super power then,and had alot more troops to offer towards the effort,isreal wasn't even established until 1945,after the war.
guess wher most of the jews were then? ussr,poland and northern europe. i think you should think about the casualties on both sides added up. what about korea,vietnam,afghanistan,irack,and probably iran soon enough.
we're all humans,no?!
peace (please)



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 02:59 AM
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reply to post by blocula
 


I would say this video sums up how the Russians responded to the genocide of their people quite well while also being an analogy to the OP's comparison.




They started making fully-automatic assault weapons, trained their population on how to use them, got nukes, and sat on the top tier of the world stage for a couple decades. Not bad for a country that was basically still in the feudal ages only 100 years ago.

TL;DR: They learned how to defend themselves properly.
edit on 9-1-2012 by FTD Brat because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by Viking9019
 


Actually, the number is alot closer to 4 million - this number includes the offspring (who would'nt be accepted as Jews today) of Jewish fathers & grandfathers and Gentile mothers because they would had carried a Jewish name, then you have the Christians with Jewish sounding names also included. Fact of the matter is, no one really knows 100% sure exactly how many Jews did perish in the death camps, those exterminated in Warsaw and others taken out in the forests and also exterminated. If I was to say to add up only the number iof Jews who were halakahic (or Orthodox) Jews - the number would be closer from 2.5 to 3M.

As for the Russians; yes alot more of them than Jews perished in the death camps. Even I can't deny that. Many of the photos you see in Holocaust museums worldwide in PJs were Russian, I know about the photo tampering too.

Fact is, one can not deny the Nazis slaughtered many millions of innocent people, whether that be Jews, Russians, Christians (many of whom were Germans), Gypsies and Homosexuals.

If we look at the genocides past and present of minority African communities in Africa - the toll is far greater.

The Armenian genocide - that did happen - more than 1 million perished.

I'm still waiting on the offical count of the genocide of black Libyans by the rebels.

Unfortunately, genocide will continue not just in Africa, but among minority groups in the Middle East.



edit on 9-1-2012 by bluemirage5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 03:12 AM
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reply to post by zroth
 


Very well said to you, a clear and concise thought process indeed!. This is very true, we can blame the illuminati, governments, whomever, we move the blame away from the real cause, but when you get down to the basics it is because none of us stand together at all. We are bought up to believe in our respective countries and the systems employed within them, rather than learning love and to work with each other and protect each other.

This is yet another reason why we need the current systems to be pushed aside so that we can move forward in human terms. We are and have all been used and abused for well, for ever really here, something needs to change for the better rather than blindly just allowing the things we call leaders to run this place. We need to grow up as a race and look after each other, screw the agendas of the few, we all know they do not have any of our best interests at heart.

Can we do it? I really think that we can, we are human and we have only the limits we set for ourselve's. Just needs people to start believing in themselves and working together.




posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 03:41 AM
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The 6 milion death toll isn't really true. It was provided by russian politbiuro after the war.
And within this number, there were also other nationalities, not only jews.
I recommend you a "holocaust industry" book, by ph.d Finkelstein.



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 03:48 AM
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edit on 9-1-2012 by boredsilly because: .



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 03:49 AM
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Did you know that there have been more babies ABORTED in the last 50 years, than ALL those war deaths COMBINED.

Food for thought...



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 03:52 AM
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Do all these deaths include diseases ?

Typhus and tuberculosis and others were rampant in 20th century Eastern Europe.



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 04:32 AM
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How about Latvians? How will count hundreds of thousands of Latvians murdered during WW2? There were only about 2 mil at the time.



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 04:33 AM
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reply to post by blocula
 


All I will say about this is that I know it to be true. I know it to be true because I am am half Russian, I am also half Black (yes, all of my history has been preserved back longer than most can dream of). I am lucky to be here IMHO. I say so because I know both halves of my history...both are sad, but it's okay. It happened. I do not like to hear of the Holocaust...it makes my ears ring the wrong notes of two sides of the tracks, but none the less, it's accurate.

Let me tell you something near and dear...I was abandoned by my well to do Russian half and sent to live with the "Black" or politically correct "African American" half of which both donated Siberian and Native American blood to me. It's no bother...it happened. This thread really hits home and a nerve because I do get sick and freaking tired of hearing about holocaust this...slavery that...it happened...okay now what?

It happened...everyone of us as human beings at some point in time have been a casualty of political domination in somewhere in the world....period! You can raise your eyebrows in awe if you choose and say "No, not me", but you're just lying to yourselves. You/Me/We have all become a victim of some sort of a holocaust however you perceive that definition. It's like my Southern born, raised grandmother (born on 1905 who raised me) used to tell me " If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black". So why do we continuously discuss such matters? Because there are those that understand-----I mean overstand the entirety of the truth of such matters...that being that these things happened. Suuuurrreeeee....there were millions upon millions upon miiiiiiillllllllliiiiiiiooooooonssssssss.......of Africans that were thrown overboard because the ships were to heavy, or to hide said cargos, etc....that did NOT make it okay, correct? But it happened, it's over with...so is the holocaust...so is a lot of other injustices. Does it mean it will never happen again? No. What these injustices means is that we "RECORD" them, study them and make sure that they never happen again. Nonetheless, we are witnessing it everyday, just through different terms of "endearment". Yeah right!

What's the point in differentiating ourselves of past injustices? Why are we so bent on pointing out who did what the most and to whom? Is it going to change what happened in the past? No! So WTF, get over it. I saw my black father (green beret) walk through a glass window to prove his point that he wasn't nobody's "Boy". Where do you think that landed him...yeap...in jail! So WTF! However, that USA golden Gloves "Boy" went on to fight for his country for a war he felt no allegiance to as a black man, but he did his job...even as an undeclared prisoner of war (go figure). Boy was he the prisoner of war if there ever was one (McCain ain't got $### on my Dad)!

This rhetoric about Jews, Russians, Blacks, Middle Easterners etc., has got to give. But when, where and by whom? Who will be the first to throw in the towel? Well, I can only assume nobody will be the first by choice...it will have to be enforced...and the enforcement will be ferocious because it will soon be at wits end....when a people have no more hope, no more aspirations and their dreams have fallen like a bird.

I get your topic author, but I ask you why did you make such a post? What is your contribution...what do you hope to gain by bringing this topic to light? It has happened and I guarantee you will never ever happen again...Ever! At least not this way. Not with my people...they just won't stand for it anymore...PERIOD! Everyone's sick and tired of they did this..he/she did that crap...whatever!

I lost a ton of Russian ancestors, and 5 tons more African ancestors and ever more tons of Native ancestors, but this post will not bring anyone of them back...so I ask you again author....why, why write such a thread?

With all due respect, what's your angle?

PS
To add insult to injury, my cousins picture hangs in the West Los Angeles V.A. Medical Center's wall as one of the Tuskegee Airmen. What's the point, he served his country..and freaking served it well without an ounce of complaint. We learn...we adapt...we live on....we push no matter the race, it's human nature to survive. I just don't get your post or the nature. By bringing this not-so-new-news to light who has been enlightened and what will the enlightened do with their new torch?






edit on 1/9/12 by ThePublicEnemyNo1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 04:37 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
And there you go making yet another thread about Jews.

Ive tried making threads about genocides in Sudan, Rwanda, Africa, Tibet, but they dont go anywhere. All people seem to care about is threads about jews/zionists.


I am right there with you....what gives? Where's the turning point, when do we say enough is enough of this type of speech? Furthermore, how does this contribute to the thinking minds of ATSer's?

I can only wonder



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 04:56 AM
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I think the real discrepancy in the Holocaust numbers is that I think a lot of the Jewish people who died were actually killed by the Soviets. Most likely, they weren't killed because of their color (at least not officially), but simply because eastern Europe at that time had a lot of Jews.

The Nazis probably wanted to take credit for every Jew that died in the war, and the Allies probably wanted to take as little credit as possible. I think the Holocaust was a joint affair between the Nazis, Soviet Union, and the puppet states such as the Ustache.

I also think the 6 million figure likely includes many people who are only partially Jewish and would not be considered Jews by a halakhic court.



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by blocula
Before and During WW-2 around 6 million Jews were killed in 12 years from 1933 to 1945...

The figure of six million was originally given by SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Hoettl in evidence to the Nuremberg Tribunal in 1946.Hoettl had worked closely with Eichmann and was well placed and well aware to give an informed estimate...

During WW-2 around 30 million Russians were killed in 4 years between the summer of 1941 and spring 1945...

There were around 12 million Russian soldiers killed on the Eastern Front.Around 7 million of them were killed in battle and over 5 million of them were taken prisoner and most of those prisoners were sent to the death camps to be experimented upon,worked,starved and gassed to death...

There were around 18 million Russian civilians murdered because of who they were on the Eastern Front during Nazi Germanys invasion of Russia,Operation Barbarossa.Russian civilian men,women and children were just as ruthlessly as the Jews,dehumanized,tracked down and annihilated...

But ever since then,right up till the present day,all we ever hear about and all we ever read about is the Jewish Holocaust,never about the Russian Holocaust...

What about them? Who speaks out for them? Where is the Russian Holocaust Museum?

Was the purposefully planned and carried out murders of 18 million Russian civilians ever even declared a Holocaust? It should have been,but thanks mostly to the Cold War and its on going demonization of the Russians it was not and heres another reason why it was not...

The squeaky wheel gets the oil...
edit on 8-1-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)


The difference is the war crimes committed against the Russians were not necessarily genocidal in intent. The Germans wanted the Russians cowed, but not annihilated. The German lebensraum plans were for a decimated, but still existent, population of Poles, Russians, and other 'undermenschen' to be the workers in a feudal system run by German settlers. This was different than their plans for the Jews, and throughout the Holocaust they gathered artifacts they planned to use for several Museum of the Eternal Jew. I got to see a large ceremonial Torah that was intended for such a museum before the Allies confiscated it from German hands, and was given to a Jewish organization.

I saw an excellent exhibit on the Soviet experience during World War II ten years ago that explained some of the reasons behind this. Part of the reason the murder of millions of Russians was ignored was because the Soviet government underplayed the losses. Soviet military incompetence allowed the Germans to occupy Communist territory in the first place, and so they weren't keen on advertising this. These murders are often tied in to government sponsored privation and starvation before, during, and after World War II. The most famous of these being the Ukrainian genocide which even now is often not recognized.

I read an excellent book on the international response to the Armenian Genocide at the hands of the Turkish government which shows that much of the world was aware of the Armenian genocide, and there was a large international aid response. This awareness has lessened considerably, mostly due to efforts by the Turkish government. The West has made this a hot button issue since Turkey is one of the most pro-Western Middle Eastern governments, and even today pitch a fit at efforts to recognized the crimes they committed.

These aren't the only 'forgotten' genocides. Few people recognized the Belgian atrocities committed in the Congo. People are also largely unaware of the genocide inflicted on African Herrero people by the Germans. Many Central American countries were also plagued by similar problems including Guatemala and Nicaragua. Guatemala largely involved campaigns to annihilate indigenous citizens who were viewed as politically suspect, whereas Nicaragua involved genocidal actions inflicted by both sides of a political civil war (and who were largely ethnically homogeneous.) The violence in Nicaragua would more than likely not have reached the levels it did without widespread unofficial sponsorship by the American and Soviet governments.

Much of the violence committed by right wing governments in Central and South American countries is as a result of training received from the US Government at the School of the Americas at Fort Benning, Georgia. It is also largely unacknowledged. Many crimes were also committed by leftist governments in the same region, but I am unaware of any actual training given to them my Communist governments (though monetary support was ubiquitous and well documented.)

en.wikipedia.org...
www.ppu.org.uk...
www.ppu.org.uk...
edit on 9/1/12 by Equidae because: (no reason given)

edit on 9/1/12 by Equidae because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2012 @ 05:28 AM
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Originally posted by Afterthought
I'd like to see some links regarding these numbers.


en.wikipedia.org...


use google if u really want to know things,dont wait for people to do it for u...



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