You are wrong about Iran., page 13
Pages: <<  10    11    12    13  >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 46 times


reply posted on 10-1-2012 @ 03:52 PM by superman2012
Originally posted by nightbringr
Originally posted by superman2012
reply to
post by DJMSN



I just don't quite understand why there are sanctions against a country trying to develop this type of power. What do they have to fear from Iran?.


The leaders of Iran constantly refer to the USA as "the great Satan" and use other such inflammatory language. Is it any wonder that the US might fear an Iranian bomb? Aside from Israel, they obviously consider the US their biggest enemy.

If someone constantly tells you that you are an enemy of theirs, you might worry when they buy a gun.


If someone constantly told me that I was an enemy of theirs, I would wonder why and look to see what I could change about myself. It's a wonder that the US hasn't done this, especially after 9/11.


reply posted on 10-1-2012 @ 10:45 PM by nightbringr
reply to post by superman2012



Not sure what point your trying to make with that last post. Do you suggest answering threat with threat, violence with violence?

The US may not have made great attempts at peace with Iran, but certainly the Iranians have been no better in this regard.
edit on 10-1-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 11-1-2012 @ 08:10 AM by superman2012
reply to post by nightbringr



The only point that I was trying to make was:

Although we do agree on a lot of points about Iran, you seem to be fixated on their human rights record and it seems to me at least, that this is the reason why you believe the sanctions are justified.

The only point I was making with my previous post was to point out that you feel the US is justified in sanctions against Iran because of their fear of Iran (threaten because they are threatened), but Iran cannot do the same.

On your last point I do agree, but, they are trying to at least appease the IAEA. From here. Plus, the US secretary of defense saying their are no nukes and they aren't building them in Iran. Link.


reply posted on 11-1-2012 @ 09:51 AM by Frira
Originally posted by superman2012
reply to
post by Frira



I'm only going to reply to a portion of your post as I don't necessarily disagree with the rest.



Iran, because of its natural resources, is in a position to finance great things, but what the world sees (not just the USA) is a leadership appealing to its people at the tribal level-- not the global neighbor level.

Wanting nuclear power plants for sustainable energy for its people and economy is laudable.

But playing, "Hide the centrifuges" with the rest of the world when combined with saber rattling is EXACTLY what got Saddam Hussein overthrown-- and dead.

You realize (right?) that nations which provide nuclear technology also have a responsibility for insuring the technology is not for the purpose of destroying one's foes. France, Germany and Russia?

You realize (right?) that centrifuges can be used for creating fuel for power generation (in which case, Why would you hide them?), or for weapons (in which case, we KNOW why they are hidden).


I agree that it is great that Iran wants to have nuclear power plants for sustainable energy. (We all know oil isn't going to last forever.)
As for Saddam being overthrown for "hiding centrifuges"...well, read this: Evidence on Iraq’s Aluminum Tubes Misrepresented.


In the months leading up to the invasion, the UN investigators were blocked, and limited-- shown recently abandoned sites and such-- by Iraqi leadership.

But my words (specifically in the quote following what you presented above) were "playing hide the centrifuge" in the context of Iran not of Iraq-- similar to Saddam's hiding research facilities and weapons storage-- putting off International inspectors, etc.

That is to say, I referred to Saddam not having the WMDs, but blocking investigators from verifying. He wanted his enemies (and probably his friends) to believe he did have them. A dangerous game-- as he learned.

Iran, knowing this, is following a similar path with its centrifuges. Why?

I do not have an answer. My GUESS is that the mere HINT of nuclear weaponry in the Iranian nuclear power project translates into prestige, funding, security and clout with radical Islamic nations and factions-- essentially quieting those and minimizing the threat of being demonized by them and their becoming an enemy to the Iranian state.

In short-- placating regional politics.

There is no doubt in my mind that this was over oil, ...


I have no doubt that if the chief export of Iraq had been woven baskets, Iraq would not have had the resources to be a threat to its neighbors. It depends upon your focus. Power, money, oil, technology, military might, policies, intentions, past behavior, integrity-- all of those are interrelated because the oil allowed for them to be-- and allowed for the scale of the threat.

But the American political polarization has made the "all about oil" to suggest, falsely, that the US claimed Iraq oil as its own. It didn't happen and was never an option-- so I stay away from that term.


I do realize that nations that provide nuclear technology has a responsiblity to make sure they don't use them for weapons. However, Russia also helped them build their nuclear technology, why would they Slam new sanctions against Iran? Shouldn't the US, and every other country that ALSO helped Iran get their nuclear program up and running be slapping sanctions on Russia for not following suit?



Tangled. Let's untangle.

The US, nor any US based companies had anything to do with Iran's nuclear program.

There is report containing a list of nations known to have been supplying technology and material for the Iranian nuclear program. I cannot find it (thought I had a copy on my computer-- but do not seem to), but will post when I do find it. No real surprises in it -- to me anyway.

Russia's contribution was primarily (I think, solely) in brain power. And, Yes, those countries who contributed ought to be penalized. If I recall, one executive of a German company was given a few years in prison.-- but that was it.

You get into a legal problem with where the line is drawn, complicated by treaties, diplomacy, and strategic interests. If a German or French company does something which violates its own nation's law (by treaty), then the host nation is responsible for applying its own law and penalties. When that fails, the international community may take steps. Sometimes, gentle persuasion at a conference table is enough to coerce-- sometimes military might is used. In between, are many options.


reply posted on 11-1-2012 @ 10:57 AM by Frira
Originally posted by superman2012
reply to
post by Frira



...

I do realize that centrifuges can be used for creating fuel for power generation or for weapons. If Iran didn't want to have big bullseyes on their NPP's why wouldn't they hide them?


Easy to answer: Because an up and running power generating plant that can be identified as NOT being a breeder reactor is not a military target-- not to the US and not anyone else.

Centrifuges, as I understand it, are not so easy to identify as to purpose. The end product is easy to identify as to purpose.

If you do not have access to the end product to test, and the centrifuges are buried deep under ground and hidden from international investigators, for example, then one MUST suspect the worst.

The scenario is easy enough to imagine. A nuclear device detonates in some port city and the nations of the world demand to know the origination of the device. And while being shown videos of celebrating radical Muslims throughout the Middle East, the ENTIRE non-Muslim world is appalled, angry and frightened. It becomes open season on mosques across the globe.

With no ability to verify Iran's innocence, Iran's guilt is assumed.

Harkening back to the Reagan-Carter election of 1980 during the "Iranian Hostage Crisis"
* "Bomb Iran" (sung to the tune of "Barbara Ann") played on the radio; and
* the joke "What is flat and glows in the dark the day after Regan takes office?" was on the lips of every American.

That Iranian leadership is willing to be a prime suspect in such a scenario is foolishness.

Consider Libya and the Pan Am flight. Libya made threats, and when something bad happened-- who got blamed? The Oklahoma City Federal Building. Muslim Radicals made threats-- had even tried (and failed) to take down the Twin Towers by that time-- and who was the first to be suspected?

Consider the IRA (Irish Republican Army) prior to 9/11 and then after: Money, weapons and other support from US Irish radicals dried up overnight. It was that or be hunted-- the American people would demand it and if the US government did not act, the people would take matters into their own firearm filled hands.

I had grown up in a neighborhood with a good number of Jewish friends. The local synagogue which many attended was occasionally fired upon (at night) so that the windows were destroyed. The night of 9/11; I saw scenes on TV from that same neighborhood where a mosque now exists, The police were there to prevent any drive by shootings at the empty mosque. And there were not any-- but I guarantee it was on the minds of many.


Can you imagine what would happen if they had a plant up and running and it took a direct missile hit? Wouldn't that cause a lot of damage for years!?


I can imagine-- and so can US military leaders who would therefore reject that option-- but instead make use of other options. Perhaps such options have already been employed?

Iran's military could not resist a determined invasion force of US Marines, much less of an International force. so the extreme of a missile strike of an operating nuclear power plant would never come up. By appearances, the Iranian nuclear program is already sufficiently infiltrated by foreign interests.

For that matter (and I am not accusing-- only speculating)...

What if a German company has figure out a way to make billions of dollars and also make giant technological leaps over its competitors by contracting with the Iranian government to assist in building nuclear research facilities-- BUT, in league with the German government's own strategic interests, never intends the project to become operational? It would not be difficult to do. An computer virus here, a few unexplained explosions there-- and the Germans have the money and the Iranians have bupkis.

I say they should drop out of the NPT, North Korea did it and they aren't at risk of getting attacked.


Are you sure North Korea is not in danger of getting attacked? I am not at all sure of that.



Edit: I posted this on page 7 and I think it applies as well here.

It is their way of life, their religion, their mores, their morals, their values. I don't agree with it either, but, if we don't let nations act in the way that they feel is best for their citizens, then we are giving all western nations free reign to go into any country that doesn't believe exactly what they believe. So why not have a one world government then? That seems to be what you are advocating. I don't agree with that either.
edit on 10-1-2012 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)


It is a problem-- and the urgency, lacking an easy solution, creates danger.

Meanwhile...

The options remains in the sanctions: Stop hinting at nuclear weapons research and so let Iran prosper-- or don't.


reply posted on 11-1-2012 @ 12:05 PM by superman2012
reply to post by Frira



Both posts were perfectly stated, in my mind anyways. I have no idea why Iran is playing such a dangerous game. I wish both sides would take a big dose of common sense.

Edit: I am going to make you a rival, not because I disagree with everything you say, you made me think about other items that I hadn't thought about before. Thanks for making me learn something new!
edit on 11-1-2012 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 11-1-2012 @ 09:25 PM by Frira
Originally posted by superman2012
reply to
post by Frira



Both posts were perfectly stated, in my mind anyways. I have no idea why Iran is playing such a dangerous game. I wish both sides would take a big dose of common sense.

Edit: I am going to make you a rival, not because I disagree with everything you say, you made me think about other items that I hadn't thought about before. Thanks for making me learn something new!
edit on 11-1-2012 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)


I am honored. I have enjoyed "thinking out loud" through the keyboard on this thread.


reply posted on 2-2-2012 @ 01:01 PM by hmdphantom
reply to post by nightbringr





While I do not advocate the bombing of Iran, I am certainly aware of their brutal human rights record.


And that's because we don't let gays marry in our own type of church , huh ?

Or

Because we say prostitution should be banned ?

What do you exactly believe in ?



reply posted on 2-2-2012 @ 01:04 PM by hmdphantom
Originally posted by nightbringr
reply to
post by superman2012



Not sure what point your trying to make with that last post. Do you suggest answering threat with threat, violence with violence?

The US may not have made great attempts at peace with Iran, but certainly the Iranians have been no better in this regard.


You mean the peace plan to make Iran surrounded by American military bases ?

That is called peace plan
Pages: <<  10    11    12    13  >>    ^^TOP^^



Israel as Popular as North Korea According to BBC Poll
  Posted 11 days ago with 35 member flags
Settlers filmed shooting at Palestinian protesters‎
  Posted 7 days ago with 19 member flags
Assad says Syria is fighting foreign mercenaries
  Posted 12 days ago with 9 member flags
Double standards in Egypt
  Posted 7 days ago with 7 member flags
\'Putin said Israel would take care of Iran\'
  Posted 12 days ago with 6 member flags