Iranian pres misquoted to help fear mongers

so I want to clarify...the Iranian president did not say to WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE FACE OF THE MAP....

here is a link from the guy that originally wrote the article that is being used as a false way to harbor hate for yet another ME country so as to make war and profit at the expense of the American people....

www.guardian.co.uk...

"Experts confirm that Iran's president did not call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'. Reports that he did serve to strengthen western hawks."

Jonathan Steele

guardian.co.uk

My recent comment piece explaining how Iran's president was badly misquoted when he allegedly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" has caused a welcome little storm. The phrase has been seized on by western and Israeli hawks to re-double suspicions of the Iranian government's intentions, so it is important to get the truth of what he really said.

I took my translation - "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" - from the indefatigable Professor Juan Cole's website where it has been for several weeks.

But it seems to be mainly thanks to the Guardian giving it prominence that the New York Times, which was one of the first papers to misquote Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, came out on Sunday with a defensive piece attempting to justify its reporter's original "wiped off the map" translation

reply to post by newyorkee

You do understand that the Iranian leadership hasn't expressed this sentiment just one time, but many times over the years. If we really HAVE to...I guess I can spend some serious time digging out how often and in how many different ways members of the leadership in Iran's Government and Military have expressed the intention of removing Jews by lethal and terminal force from that land they currently reside in.

I think my posts on this show clearly that while I'm no friend to Iran by any stretch, I'm also interested in seeing things stay fair and honest....which neither side out there seems the least bit concerned with. The honest version would be that Iran has most definitely expressed the desire and intention to see Israel totally destroyed.

If some would like to nit pick the precise wording as it translates from one language to another...fine fine... There is always someone in the group to do that. ..The sentiment, as expressed, is certainly real enough though.

maybe he did at some point.....but I tend to stick to facts....we are all in a hype that Iran should be taken care of so as to protect Israel....no nukes for them....ok....but let's get the reason for it right.....

I also think that Israel should solve its own problems instead of depending on American aid and military might....

so again we find the same BS arguments to start a war that we got for Iraq....I say enough and yes let's get picky about it.....
I am not buying the whole axis of evil crap again.....and no one should

not to mention that a translation is not an opinion or anything less than fact vs. fiction.....either he did as was being quoted....or he did not.......it is plain and simple.....

He did not as we are being led to believe......we are being lied to.........again....sentiment aside....facts facts fatcs...

Iranians themselves want to get rid of Ahmadenijad because he's, among many other things, a raging anti-semite, a Holocaust-denier and an Israel-hater. I suggest you read some of the guys speeches and watch his Interviews. Go to the source. He may not have said that exact quote, but he's said plenty of other things and also done specific things, such as supported the Hamas, that are attacks on Israel. Im surprised Israel has stayed calm this long.

But no worries, most replies will wholeheartedly agree with you.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I guess I can spend some serious time digging out how often and in how many different ways members of the leadership in Iran's Government and Military have expressed the intention of removing Jews by lethal and terminal force from that land they currently reside in.

I'd be interested in seeing this myself, since as I understand it their issue is primarily with the Israeli government as well as jewish occupation of what they see as lands primarily belonging to the 'palestinians'.

I would seriously think that if they wanted to get rid of jews outright, they'd probably start with the 25,000 or so living in Iran itself, as well as get rid of the seat they hold open for a jewish representative in their own government...(from Wiki page on Persian Jews):

Iran's Jewish community is officially recognized as a religious minority group by the government, and, like the Zoroastrians, they are allocated one seat in the Iranian Parliament. Ciamak Moresadegh is the current Jewish member of the parliament, replacing Maurice Motamed in the 2008 election. In 2000, former Jewish MP Manuchehr Eliasi estimated that at that time there were still 30,000–35,000 Jews in Iran, most other sources put the figure at 25,000. The United States State Department estimated the number of Jews in Iran at 20,000–25,000 as of 2009.

Today Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, many of them with Hebrew schools. It has two kosher restaurants, an old-age home and a cemetery. There is a Jewish library with 20,000 titles. Iranian Jews have their own newspaper (called "Ofogh-e-Bina") with Jewish scholars performing Judaic research at Tehran's "Central Library of Jewish Association". The "Dr. Sapir Jewish Hospital" is Iran's largest charity hospital of any religious minority community in the country; however, most of its patients and staff are Muslim...

Is it the best of relationships? I doubt it. But does Iran want to wipe all jews out or kill all the jews in Israel? No. It appears to primarily be a political issue given their views of the palestinian situation, whether or not their view of the matter is entirely correct and justified.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Iranians themselves want to get rid of Ahmadenijad because he's, among many other things, a raging anti-semite, a Holocaust-denier and an Israel-hater. I suggest you read some of the guys speeches and watch his Interviews. Go to the source. He may not have said that exact quote, but he's said plenty of other things and also done specific things, such as supported the Hamas, that are attacks on Israel. Im surprised Israel has stayed calm this long.

But no worries, most replies will wholeheartedly agree with you.

edit on 7-1-2012 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

As i understand it, indeed SOME Iranians want to get rid of him, still he was elected by a majority(vote fraud can always be suspected, still we have to assume after all the debacle that it was corrected)

Also rather than judging him for being a "Holocaust-denier" i find that stance of him most curious, and would LOVE to hear him speak out on this, showing proof and speaking on all the reasons as to why he has this stance. Sadly from all the interviews i have seen with him, the interviewers all seem obviously biased and don´t really want to hear anything about it, basically interrupting him with stupid questions as soon as he starts speak of it.

I get the impression there might be a coverup equal to 9/11 at work here. Even if i believe the "Holocaust" taking place, i am sure he knows something about this that most of us don´t. That may be one reason the US is so eager to get him killed, and why indeed certain western-elements seem so eager to start a war with Iran.

reply to post by newyorkee
In all fairness, there is debate the other way to uphold the translation - so in the end it falls down to figuring out exactly what they intend when saying such things - and if their own translation issues exist:

Translation controversy
Many news sources repeated the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting statement by Ahmadinejad that "Israel must be wiped off the map", an English idiom which means to "cause a place to stop existing", or to "obliterate totally", or "destroy completely".

Ahmadinejad's phrase was "بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود" according to the text published on the President's Office's website.

The translation presented by the official Islamic Republic News Agency has been challenged by Arash Norouzi, who says the statement "wiped off the map" was never made and that Ahmadinejad did not refer to the nation or land mass of Israel, but to the "regime occupying Jerusalem". Norouzi translated the original Persian to English, with the result, "the Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time." Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, agrees that Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as, "the Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad). According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian." Instead, "he did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse." The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translated the phrase similarly, as "this regime" must be "eliminated from the pages of history."

Iranian government sources denied that Ahmadinejad issued any sort of threat. On 20 February 2006, Iran's foreign minister Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference: "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognize legally this regime."

Shiraz Dossa, a professor of Political Science at St. Francis Xavier University in Nova Scotia, Canada, also believes the text is a mistranslation.
'Ahmadinejad was quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini in the specific speech under discussion: what he said was that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." No state action is envisaged in this lament; it denotes a spiritual wish, whereas the erroneous translation – "wipe Israel off the map" – suggests a military threat. There is a huge chasm between the correct and the incorrect translations. The notion that Iran can "wipe out" U.S.-backed, nuclear-armed Israel is ludicrous.'

The Guardian columnist and foreign correspondent Jonathan Steele published an article based on this line of reasoning.

In a June 11, 2006 analysis of the translation controversy, New York Times editor Ethan Bronner stated: '[T]ranslators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say “wipe off” or “wipe away” is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive.'

Bronner continued: "..it is hard to argue that, from Israel's point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel. So did Iran's president call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question." This elicited a further response from Jonathan Steele, who noted that Bronner agreed that "map" or any other place noun had not been used and criticized this Wikipedia entry (as it was on June 14, 2006) for "claiming falsely" that Ethan Bronner had "concluded that Ahmadinejad had in fact said that Israel was to be wiped off the map".

At a gathering of foreign guests marking the 19th anniversary of the death of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 2008, Ahmadinejad said:
"You should know that the criminal and terrorist Zionist regime which has 60 years of plundering, aggression and crimes in its file has reached the end of its work and will soon disappear off the geographical scene."

The Iranian presidential website states: that "the Zionist Regime of Israel faces a deadend and will under God's grace be wiped off the map," and "the Zionist Regime that is a usurper and illegitimate regime and a cancerous tumor should be wiped off the map."

I will have to side with the political argument against perceived occupation of palestine/Israel itself.

reply to post by Praetorius


thanks for getting that all together.....

IMO peace should be first and foremost.....no one wants to die or see people die...most at least.....everything else is insane

Ahmadinejad might be an extremist who is,loud and ugly. but I assure you he is not in any sense,stupid or aggressive........let me translate what he said about Israel word by word..( I am an Iranian Canadian) ......He said ''the regime occupying ghods (beit al moghaddas) must vanish from the page of history''..........And by that he meant the Zionist' regime' that runs Israel ..............I am sure he is as bad as any other politicians out there, if not better!. ,,,,,,,,I dont endorse any politician,but i am sure he doesnt wish for any nation to be wiped out...........no one in their right minds want that to happen..............I know you think the guy is a lunatic, but if you take a time to familiar yourself with his thoughts, you will find out that he is smarter and more reasonable than a lot of nut jobs out there.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Iranians themselves want to get rid of Ahmadenijad because he's, among many other things, a raging anti-semite, a Holocaust-denier and an Israel-hater. I suggest you read some of the guys speeches and watch his Interviews. Go to the source. He may not have said that exact quote, but he's said plenty of other things and also done specific things, such as supported the Hamas, that are attacks on Israel. Im surprised Israel has stayed calm this long.

But no worries, most replies will wholeheartedly agree with you.

edit on 7-1-2012 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

I'm glad you bring this up and I probably should have qualified what I said with the same point. That being the Iranian people and the Iranian Government are two radically different things..and more so all the time. After all, it seems a thousand years ago at the pace of events over the last 12-18 months, but the Iranian people DID make a good hard try at removing those nut cases in power. As I recall, Obama was even rather harsh about the concept of supporting it when support might have made the difference. Now he'll go to war over it.

I'll just bet that if we don't manage to obliterate half their nation first, the Iranian and American people can rediscover the things we have in common and which made us quite friendly to one another before the political wars began in 1979. One can hope.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000




Granted, I know it's not a full view, but many similarities - people are people, and governments generally tend to be idiots.

reply to post by Praetorius

When I get some time, I think I'll do a thread on just this. I honestly had no idea there were people here who actually don't believe the man has said what he has said. Wow... It's getting to be wild when the very words spoken to a world press and public are questioned as to ever having been spoken at all.

I'm not saying he said Israel would be wiped off the map, as a precise and literal quote. The wording was a bit different in the speech I'm thinking of...but not by much and that was 100% dead on for the intent of what was said...and repeated often over the years. Iranian leadership hates Israel with a passion that borders on clinical illness. Not Jews, as a single, individual person (it's Homosexuals Iran doesn't have...after just killing them all) ...but the State of Israel which happens to hold a few million of them as last count.

Added Note: I wanted to come back for a moment and add a note here. If this came off as confrontational, it isn't meant to be. It occurred to me that so much money, skill and effort is put into clouding the issues these days and generally making people confused on the basic things..we're all just about forced to research the most basic of things to be sure it's the real version..not another media variation.... I'm committed to making a thread on this topic for the site I volunteer at..and will simply adapt it to fit over here when that's done... sometime in the not too distant future. Iranian leadership and their President is no good guy and the world will be much better off without him in it. I just want to see that come at the hands of Iranians...or at least, without the deaths of Iranians who have nothing to do with the monsters they have leading them.

reply to post by shapur


I agree, people just don´t bother to do their research properly nowadays, sadly.

He certainly is an interesting character, and that is never a bad thing. Unless he does something real stupid, which he as of now, has not.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000
I'd enjoy seeing what you might put together, Wrabbit. And I'll say it's such a truly sad and clouded issue. As far as Iran attacking Israel, I don't see it ever happening due to the imminent threat of being utterly destroyed in response, as well as the resultant deaths of palestinians as well (and say what we will of their religion, it also has quite clear precepts against killing innocents, likely especially fellow believers) - but I suppose only time will tell.

I absolutely agree about the media and the need for independent research. The media stopped being a trustworthy source of information and failed the request of Kennedy a long time ago. And I'll not argue with you about the leadership of Iran as you speak somewhat well there...but I'm forced to wonder how much worse they truly are than most other leaderships around the world. It's a shame so many of us fellow humans have ended up with so many knuckleheads in positions of power.

No offense taken, and thanks for your response. Be well friend.

Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

It's a shame so many of us fellow humans have ended up with so many knuckleheads in positions of power.

I think this is the moral of the story.....Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is as any other leader of our nations NATO, ME, etc...
one side VS the other.....when in reality it is us who suffer regardless of who "wins" if there can even be a winner anymore

....maybe a border here....a constitution there....but it's all BS on their paper......WE are our souls....nothing flip floppy there.....it´s our ancestors.....our story......our descendants ....our different idiosyncrasies juxtaposed to our singular humanity.....how can they see anything but a human family.....

we are as one...
any argument of one side´s evil and ones side´s good is an argument against the collective of mankind upon this good blue green earth.....

we are as one.....really there is no two.....just one side ripping from himself part of himself.....
Israel VS Iran or vice versa is the same as a man pulling a rib from his side out of spite.....

forget those dopey love is all crap mantras....or the hateful arguments of one's glory by demonizing another's
remember who YOU are....dont let anyone tell you that....you define what that is....you BE it.....

I am who I am because that is who I be......!
1

I think this is the moral of the story.....Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is as any other leader of our nations NATO, ME, etc...

reply to post by newyorkee


Aww - yeah good o'l 'thousand bullet' A'jad - you know the man who executed a thousand prisoners after they were done being tortured, during his stint at the notorious Evin prison. The one who revels as a mentor to the Basiji, just your average teenage boys rolling through minefields to clear them, with plastic 'keys to paradise' round their necks. Yeah gosh darn it - he's just like us! makes me feel all warm and gooey inside.


The moral of this story is: you can't make peace with people who are determined to kill you.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


and yet another moral....extremes only serve to silence the majority of people who are not so far left or so far right to never agree with anyone....

yet you argument of war is the only answer when dealing with a whole country based on 1 persons idea of leadership....is .....extreme....just like your advocating of killing people out of the theoretical threat they pose based on lies and disinfo being shoved down our collective throats for decades...

shame on imposed war.....for....every decade of American sacrifice for cooperate greed and private gain.....
we don't need more Iraq's....
we need to get out of bankruptcy.....
we need to educate our people so they can compete globally.....
we need to feed our own Americans who are going without in the greatest country in the world....

we don't need war/ fear mongering so as to secure TPTB with greater wealth and tighter hold over our country....
we need to support small business and local government.....not disconnected foreign power at home....or indifferent government made to have us serve anyone but our own country....

we are mercenaries of the world....we sell our talent....youth....and well being to the highest bidder....
let them solve their own problems they way the world has......since forever.....

all else is BS and an argument advocating violence as the only possible solution.....like we are so dumb we can't use another tool set to solve our problems than bombs and bullets....

all warm and mushy.....oooh your so tough advocating fighting people you would be the first to say are no match militarily....you coward....you choose the cowards enemy...and cheapen our victory by disrespecting him....honor him so as to honor yourself......warrior....psst......more like delusional wanna be hero

The US doesn't need more liars like you....we want honest people to stop telling us BS selling the next boogey man.....you chase him....you invented him.....we rather prosper as a people....not be your happy cannon fodder..

IMO of coarse.....but not limited to it.....we are all as one....you choose to rip off a part of your humanity for your psychotic ideals.....that's fine.....mr.rambo tough guy.....go ahead....don't expect us to drink the cool aid though

go team meeeerrrrrica.....yaaaaaahh!!! lol

reply to post by newyorkee


Bottom line .. the guy has proven himself to be a nut and his speechs prove he wants the destruction of Israel and the United States. You can sugar coat his intent all you want .. it's pretty clear and obvious what he's after. Oh ... and his chatter about that imaginary 12th Imam is enough to scare the socks off any sane person .... YIKES!

reply to post by newyorkee


Um - lets be clear about this shall we:

I am advocating being prepared for war.....in order to deter an obvious aggressor like Iran, SO THERE CAN BE PEACE!

You are advocating, let's pretend there is no threat and do nothing, which is a GUARANTEE OF WAR!

YOU ARE THE REAL 'WARMONGER' HERE.