Gun Rights could have prevented 9-11

Originally posted by curme

How does that work again? Since the Vietnamese kicked our asses all the way back to our little country, can they tell us how to run America? Since the Lebanese kicked our asses in Beruit, and we went home, can they tell us what to do?

No, see, nice try there, but I wasn't saying we could tell them what to do (read your post.) Simply that they couldnt tell us what to do. Mabey if Vietnam was telling us what to do, or we were telling Brits what to do, your post would make some kind of sence. As it is now, you arguing against phantom statements. Lets think next time we spew words onto the keyboard. Nice try though.

BTW, We lost around 60,000 soldiers in Vietnam. I dont know exactly how many of them we killed, but I will take a guess and say it was more than a million. Point: U.S. The only war we lost was a culture war on the homefront. Point: socialist hippies. I dont think we should have been there, but that dosnt mean we lost. My brothers-in-arms were called home before they could finish the task that had been put on their shoulders. What do you know of war? Come talk to me when you have blood on your hands, and then we can discuss winning and loosing in battle. There is a whole universe there you know nothing about.

I really dont see how this has anything to do with guns, planes, or people that should keep their mouths shut about American guns on American planes.

TL, great topic, sorry to get away from it.

"I really dont see how this has anything to do with guns, planes, or people that should keep their mouths shut about American guns on American planes."

hmmm.. this is a global issue...American guns on American planes affects the entire world

everyone should start viewing the world as the small place it is

Originally posted by cavscout
Come talk to me when you have blood on your hands, and then we can discuss winning and loosing in battle. There is a whole universe there you know nothing about.

OK, so Curme did come talk to me, and he says he was in Iraq. This is me publicly apologizing for that remark; I made a conclusion I should not have. Sorry Curme.

I still stand by everything else I have ever said.

Originally posted by helenheaven

hmmm.. this is a global issue...American guns on American planes affects the entire world

No, it is an American issue. If you dont like it, dont use American planes. If your country doesnt like it, then they dont have to allow American planes to fly through their airspace. American corporations own those planes, spent alot of money on them infact, and loose alot of money when one goes down. If they think they can protect their interests on their privatly owned jets by trading passenger ammo for saftey slugs at the ticket counter, that is between them and their shareholders. Anyone who feels unsafe with that can make the choise to use another airline, or another mode of transportation. These jets are not owned by the government, nor does the government have any right to own passenger jets for the use of public tranportation, therefor it is none of the governments busines who the airlines allow to be armed on planes, nor will it ever be.

everyone should start viewing the world as the small place it is

Hitler thought the same thing. We are the U.S., not the world. It is no other nations concern what our corporations due with their personal property. I am all for a free, INDEPENDENT America. If I wanted to live under the guidlines of your society, I would move to your country. As it stands now, I love the constitution and the land and people that it is meant to protect. I do not love New Zealand, so I care not what New Zealand thinks, or what its people think. Youre affairs are none of my concern, and mine should be none of yours

Unfortunately for the rest of the world the American policies do affect our lives

New Zealanders died on sept 11 2001 also.

I feel sorry to have to say this but attitudes like yours are why the atrocities of 9 /11 occured. If nations worked together rather than adopting the isolationist attitude you have the world would be a much safer place.

Bet my bottom dollar USA will have another terrorist attack before NZ.

Originally posted by cavscout
No, it is an American issue. If you don't like it, don't use American planes. ....................... These jets are not owned by the government, nor does the government have any right to own passenger jets for the use of public tranportation,..................

I am an American and I think she has a right to think it is a world issue... Should I shut up also? The suppression of putting someone down is exactly how you say below Hitler did it in WW2. He shut up the Jews, then tried to exterminate them. What if he said it was a German issue and for other to butt out. Well, what about North Korea? Nukes are their issue.. Should Americans butt out?

Now, Who subsidizes the American Airlines when they make no money? The government. Who decides the regulations for American Airlines? The Government. Who holds a big stake in airlines? Well, it comes down to the government as pointed above.

everyone should start viewing the world as the small place it is

Hitler thought the same thing. We are the U.S., not the world. It is no other nations concern what our corporations due with their personal property. I am all for a free, INDEPENDENT America. If I wanted to live under the guidelines of your society, I would move to your country. As it stands now, I love the constitution and the land and people that it is meant to protect. I do not love New Zealand, so I care not what New Zealand thinks, or what its people think. You're affairs are none of my concern, and mine should be none of yours

So, again... the affairs of Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea are none of our business? Then, why do we push other countries to change? Why did we join the allied forces in Europe? It was a European problem. Your arguments make no sense in the world today.

Airplanes fly all over the world. The Internet connects everyone like never before. You could not even talk on this forum if it was not for the world. You do not care what other Humans think? You think Americans are a higher race or something? Hmm, sounds like Hitlers ideas to me. I am only using Hitler as an example as you did it above.

Why would you not care what other people think and tell them to shut-up? Basic caring for humans and their thoughts and ideas are what is needed in this world. War would be allot less if we just tried to understand each other instead of just telling other to shut up like kids. think of where the world would be if Doctors, Engineers, humanitarian workers and others did not care about the livelihood of other people in other countries. People like Mother Theresa would have not been around. You opinion is your opinion and I do respect it. I will have my own opinion and others have theirs. Understanding and BASIC HUMANISM & RESPECT is what we ALL need to learn before we destroy ourselves! Please think about this before you tell others to shut up and believe that you or any RACE or SOCIETY or RELIGION is allowed to say something only!

Sorry for this RANT, but this type of attitude towards people really makes me upset.

[edit on 11-9-2004 by JCMinJapan]

Originally posted by helenheaven
Unfortunately for the rest of the world the American policies do affect our lives

New Zealanders died on sept 11 2001 also.

I feel bad for them, but no one forced them to be in that building. If you think your country is safer, then you dont have to come to mine. Those New Zealanders were there all on their own, no Americans forced them to be there.

I feel sorry to have to say this but attitudes like yours are why the atrocities of 9 /11 occured. If nations worked together rather than adopting the isolationist attitude you have the world would be a much safer place.

No, attitudes that we should meddle in the affairs of other nations, combined with the homicidal tendencies of some human beings is why it happened. We need to just start minding our own damn buisiness, and other countrys need to do the same. It is exactly this medling in other countrys affairs you advise that pissed them off in the first place, so how can you advise we dont take an isolationalist view?

Bet my bottom dollar USA will have another terrorist attack before NZ.

.

Bet it will too. No one even thinks of it as a country. I had to remind myself that you are not part of Autrailia. As a nation, you are not very noteworthy. You cant get hit if you dont stand up.

Originally posted by cavscout

Originally posted by helenheaven
Unfortunately for the rest of the world the American policies do affect our lives

New Zealanders died on sept 11 2001 also.

I feel bad for them, but no one forced them to be in that building. If you think your country is safer, then you don't have to come to mine. Those New Zealanders were there all on their own, no Americans forced them to be there.

You have lost me here... You do not care for the people that died in 9-11? No one forced anyone to work there, no one forced the valiant firefighters and police to go in there to save lives. No one forced anyone to build the building. No one forced anyone to ride on the planes. No one forced anyone to open an airliner. This is a terribly cruel idea with no regard to human lives at all! Off of your statement above, then you do not care about anyone dieing anywhere from anything or you only care about Americans only? (Again... go back to your Hitler statement! Sounds like same ideals). GREAT ATTITUDE! ............. not...

[edit on 11-9-2004 by JCMinJapan]

hmmm. the mexican waiters serving at the top of the world restaurant didn't need to be there either, in fact NOBODY HAD to be in the buildings or on the planes...what afallicious argument

The fact that you had to remind yourself that NZ is not part of Australia is indictative of your world knowledge.

Nzers have died in Korea and Vietnam and are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as many other places. Our death toll has been highly disproportinate to our poulation.

Yet for a small country we do a lot of noteworthy things....seen LOTR yet ? Know who Edmund Hillary or Lord Rutherford are ?

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
I am an American and I think she has a right to think it is a world issue... Should I shut up also?

I personaly think so, but remember that you asked.

The suppression of putting someone down is exactly how you say below Hitler did it in WW2. He shut up the Jews, then tried to exterminate them.

I dont support any government actions to shut anyone up. I do think they should shut themselfs up, as it is none of their buisness. I didnt say they have no right to speak their mind, just that what is in their minds doesnt matter and should not affect American policy

What if he said it was a German and for other to butt out.

kinda extreme there, dont ya think? I didnt say anything about killing off a group of people, but instead said people that are not Americans should not try to tell Americans how to protect themselves. Since you want to make me seem like Hitler, remember what happened before he started killing Jews. Gun control. Imagine what those Jews could have done if they were all armed.

Well, what about North Korea? Nukes are their issue.. Should Americans butt out?

Yes

Now, Who subsidizes the American Airlines when they make no money? The government. Who decides the regulation for American Airlines?

These are both un-constitutional acts that I do not support. The government has no right to give welfare to the airlines. They also dont have a right to regulate industry. What you are saying is facist, so how can you compare me to Hitler?

So, again... the affairs of Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea are none of our business?

No, they are not. Not untill they atack us.

Then, why do we push other countries to change?

We shouldnt.

Why did we join the allied forces in Europe? It was a European problem.

Because Hitler initiated force against an entire people. It is always OK to use force in the defence of people who have had force initiated against them. This was not a case of us iterfering with two nations or people entering into mutual combat, it was a bully killing millions. It was his stated goal to continue untill the world was clean, and we were "un-clean" according to him. We held out for as long as we could, and I have respect for that.

Airplanes fly all over the world.

like I said, each nation controls their own airspace.

You think Americans are a higher race or something?

No, but I think American issues are for Americans to decide, and other nations concerns should not be entertained.

Basic caring for humans and their thoughts and ideas are what is needed in this world. War would be allot less if we just tried to understand each other instead of just telling other to shut up like kids. think of where the world would be if Doctors, Engineers, humanitarian workers and others did not care about the livelihood of other people in other countries. People like Mother Theresa would have not been around. You opinion is your opinion and I do respect it. I will have my own opinion and others have theirs. Understanding and BASIC HUMANISM & RESPECT is what we ALL need to learn before we destroy ourselves

I never said people should not care about others, so what did all that emotional overkill have to do with anything?

Please think about this before you tell others to shut up and believe that you or any RACE or SOCIETY or RELIGION is allowed to say something only!

Once again, I never said my anything was the only ones allowed to say something, or that my anything is better than anyone elses. I just said their oppinion does not matter, because it is none of their buisness. They can say whatever they want about it. I cant stop them, nor would I. I just dont take kindly to people telling me what to do, or other nations telling my country what to do. They have every right to say it, and I have every right to say it is none of their concern.



[edit on 11-9-2004 by cavscout]

well I wish America would butt out of the rest of the world

(unless they choose to feed the starving in Darfur)

vote for someone that could possibly manage this...for the rest of the world's sake

BTW: why are Kerry / Bush so focussed on who was braver during past conflicts ? Is that all anyone cares about ? It shouldn't matter at all...they should be concentrating on problem resolution not harking back to who did what in a world not remotely like the one we live in today. It astounds me that anyone pays this sort of rhetoric any attention at all.

[edit on 11-9-2004 by helenheaven]

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
You have lost me here... You do not care for the people that died in 9-11?

Nice rty there, but I said nothing of the sort. I said no one forced New Zealanders to be there. She said it was the concern of New Zealand because New Zealanders were killed. I am saying that does not make it the concern of New Zealanders, because the United States did not force them to be in that building, they chose to be there, in our country, knowing our rules and customs. If they feel that America is or was unsafe, they dont have to come here. just because some of them traveled here of their own accord and got killed does not give New Zealand or its people to the right to control American laws.

This is a terribly cruel idea with no regard to human lives at all! Off of your statement above, then you do not care about anyone dieing anywhere from anything or you only care about Americans only?

I have expeirinced much death, and have a high level of respect for life. I am a very caring person. You assume too much. I believe in the existance of true altuism, and try to live my life that way. You need to look at the intent of a persons words, read more than just the words, before you make asumptions. It is not always easy to voice an oppinion, and things dont always come out as they are meant to. I should try to be more elaborate so you can understand me next time. You should not jump to conclusions and put words into peoples mouths.




[edit on 11-9-2004 by cavscout]

Originally posted by cavscout

What if he said it was a German and for other to butt out.

kinda extreme there, dont ya think? I didnt say anything about killing off a group of people, but instead said people that are not Americans should not try to tell Americans how to protect themselves. .....................

But, I am an American. What if I do not agree with you? Still I should shut up. huh? Well, then you are saying that you only care what people think if they are American AND agree with you.

airline regulations and govt grants

These are both un-constitutional acts that I do not support. The government has no right to give welfare to the airlines. They also don't have a right to regulate industry. What you are saying is facist, so how can you compare me to Hitler?

You brought up the Hitler thing with HH. I am just pointing out that you attitude can be construed in the same way. Next.. If govt, did not subsidize the airline industry, then they would have almost all closed down now as they would have to file bankruptcy. That would mean that many people would be out of work. The companies like Boeing would be in bad shape also. But, if they did go bankrupt, then this argument about guns on airlines would not be happening now.... ha ha ha

Basic caring for humans and their thoughts and ideas are what is needed in this world. .........

I never said people should not care about others, so what did all that emotional overkill have to do with anything?

Obviously by your lack of caring what other feel. You probably cannot understand this concept above as you are an isolationist and you can go living is your own little world. Have fun in it..

................... I just don't take kindly to people telling me what to do, or other nations telling my country what to do. They have every right to say it, and I have every right to say it is none of their concern.

Don`t we all temporarily share the same planet? Sorry, I think more about human relations than I do about nationalism. I guess it is die to me living in many countries and having friends from many other countries. I will stop from here, as you obviously cannot understand this concept. Enjoy your little world and I will enjoy my large one. It was a great conversation, we learn about new types of people everyday. Have fun.

[edit on 12-9-2004 by JCMinJapan]

Back on the issue of guns on planes, lets not forget what happens after that plane hits the ground. Those people have to leave the plane, and are unarmed. Remember when Florida first made ti easy to get a CCW? Criminals began to target tourists. The state of Florida no longer garunteed criminals that its people would be unarmed victims, but the Airlines did gauranty that tourists would be unarmed victims, so they began robbing and killing them. less danger involved if you know they just got off a plane and have no means to defend themselves. When the rental car companys stoped putting the big day-glow stickers on their bumpers and mirrors saying it was a rental car (and therefore an unarmed tourist) the "Florida tourist-murder rampage" stoped, and was almost never heard of again.

I know I dont want to find myself in a strange place where I dont know the good areas from the bad and I am loaded down with cash or credit cards to support my trip, and everyone knows it, AND everyone knows I dont have a gun because I just got off a plane.

Unfortunately what happened on sept 11 in the USA is a global issue

Especially since this has prompted the USA to bomb other countries. I just cannot understand how you can say that NZers being killed is essentially their own fault. This is like blaming ALL the people in the building that day for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I guess the poor sods in Hiroshima were also in the wrong place at the wrong time ?

funny, we have no right to bear arms in NZ and neither do the tourists.

Outcome: very rarely is anyone shot

Originally posted by helenheaven
I just cannot understand how you can say that NZers being killed is essentially their own fault. This is like blaming ALL the people in the building that day for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I guess the poor sods in Hiroshima were also in the wrong place at the wrong time ?

OH MY GOD! What do I have do to get this through to you two! I DO NOT THINK IT WAS THEIR FAULT. I THINK IT WAS A HORRIBLE THING AND I FEEL BAD FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILY.

WHAT I MEANT WAS THAT I DONT THINK THIS GIVES NEW ZEALAND A RIGHT TO SHAPE AMERICAN LAW. IF THEY HAD BEEN FORCED TO BE THERE BY AMERICA, THEN MABEY NEW ZEALAND WOULD HAVE A RIGHT TO SHAPE AMERICAN LAW AS A RESULT.

Originally posted by helenheaven
funny, we have no right to bear arms in NZ and neither do the tourists.

Outcome: very rarely is anyone shot

Well, I am glad that works out for you.

funny, the Swiss have the right to own fully automatic weapons, and are even given one by the government and required to keep it.

Outcome: very rarely is anyone shot.

Wow you have a minority group of very scary people. What is more scary gun-toting americans or the terrorists???

God bless America you need it!!!!!!

hey jubilee

wow ! An aussie and a Kiwi agreeing (world first)


lets stay down here where it is a tad safer huh

BTW: cavscout, NZ has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the wrold, we are just not allowed to wander the streets with them

[edit on 12-9-2004 by helenheaven]