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I'm a Jew and I'm against Israel. Does that make me an anti-semite?

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posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 07:37 PM
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I am an interesting medium shade here. I stated in posts at ATS that I support Israel - but not all its policies - I was critical on many points, as I do not support violent nationalism at any place. While I will never go as far as saying the Palestinians were not a people (as they themselves claim) - or that their grievances were totally unreal, I would say that Israel has been there for over sixty years and, like it or not, it is not going away. I happen to like it - even if some freaks would say that 1947 land should be given back. What, demolish Tel Aviv or Jerusalem and people that would generally get along with Westerners far easier than their enemies? No way.

However, I would not like Israel to make war on half the world either. E.g. bomb Iran before there is credible evidence they would attack first (I think they would not, but, given their culture and their pride, Persians WILL fight back once attacked. Until then, they may do as bad as nip the flanks of some US warships - that should not parade there in the first place.)

My wife has Jewish ancestors on both sides. She spent a year in Israel and she thought the roots of local Arabs called Palestinians are very similar to Jewish roots. Even the language and the writing system are related. She is frequently critical of Israel's policies towards "Arabs" (some of whom could well have Sephardic ancestors by the way). We were not sold on Bush's theory of Arab terrorism (911), nor the Iraq war. None of which political positions should link us with Islamic extremism or the enemies of Israel though. I am sure there are plenty of people in Israel itself against all the present aggressive saber-rattling and against exacerbating existing tensions with neighbouring countries.

However, we live in Eastern Europe. Anti-semitism is quite alive here. I personally think any argument that starts with "the world's banks are in Jewish hands" etc. is itself anti-semitism. While there are a few famous rich families such as the Rotschilds, there is no credible evidence that Jewish people all over the world would somehow own all the money. It is plain stupid to say so.

As far as human rights abuses, there are plenty of other places - Africa, as Sky says, where the grossest things happen on a daily basis (think daily rape and pillage in the Congo), or the treatment of Falun Gong, Tibetans, and all opposition people by the Chinese Communists, and so on.

The other side of this question is, however, that it is natural that many people would hold Israel to Western standards, that is, Israel in our minds should compare to Sweden or Holland, not to the Congo or Communist China. And there are shortcomings in Western standards - according to testimonies that sould credible to me. These would be mindless to deny or hide.

And I agree with the OP in that the values shown by the average Reformed Jew are valuable to humanity as a whole, Jews and non-Jews. In my country, Jewish Hungarians have been frequently the upholders of progress, democracy, human rights, and have generally exceeded in terms of culture, science, languages, psychology and education.

Yes, I recognize the grades (as Sky describes) people go through with their various judgements of Israel, Zionism and the Holocaust. This is a very valid point. I grew up in a place where the Holocaust was pretty bad, and my grandparents were hiding some Jewish people successfully from the house-to-house search of local Nazi troops. In my mind anyone who questions the terror of the European Holocaust has very questionable motivations - at best they are tasteless and tactless, most likely anti-semites, at worst they are deranged. Passionate anti-semites frequently try to make up for their various psychological shortcomings by a collective projection on Western Jewry.

What bothers me is that the dialogue - in many places recently - has become quite polarized. If someone is generally pro-Jewish and a philosemite, some people expect that person to approve of a host of things instantly. It seems like partisan politics to me.

Thank you for your attention.
edit on 1/6/2012 by Kokatsi because: grammar, punctuation




posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Skyfloater, are you accusing me of being a Jew-hater? There is a fine difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism. I am not an anti-semite. I have no problem with Jews. I think Jews should have their political freedom. I think people of all races should have their political freedoms. That includes the Palestinians. The Arabs and Palestinians do not live side by side each other. Much of the Palestinians are in camps. They are lucky if they are able to make it into the big cities. The camps that you mention are for the Israeli's protection wouldn't need to be there if the Israeli government desegregated their country to allow everyone to live peacefully side by side, but that won't happen.

It's the same as black and white segregation that existed in our country leading up to the 60s. If you think all people who are anti-zionists are anti-Jewish that in itself is a bad argument because you have one person here who is not claiming that the Jewish people or any such people are involved in any conspiracy to control the worlds money supply. I do not claim that because I know many people of many nationalities are involved. It is not a one sided issue. Just because a lot of people who say these sorts of things happen to also be anti-semites (in those other cases) doesn't mean that everyone who is against the Israeli government is one of them.

Yes, I realize that many other governments are tyrannical but the reason why Israel is criticized is because it is a Democracy. Those other governments that are criticized are known corrupt governments. The reason why we see the United States criticized so much is because we claim we are the leader of the free world yet we do things that make people make their head spin (most recently the NDAA, and maybe then SOPA).

There also is an element of anti-Jewishness involved in the anti-Israeli propaganda though I will admit. But that comes largely from propaganda from other countries in the Arab world which face Israel as the sole Jewish country in the Middle-East. Things aren't really fair for them.

But then again, you have plenty of news sources criticizing other Arab governments... take Al-Jazeera for instance which is very critical of not only Western regimes but their own as well.
edit on 6-1-2012 by Frankidealist35 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


I don't know about you but I've seen many critical pieces about the government of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Iraq and other countries other than Israel. I do not know where you get the idea that people who criticize Israel only criticize Israel and no other countries.
Maybe you're not looking hard enough?



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 08:58 PM
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All I can say is Jews are Gods chosen People, I wish I was one.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Of course the wall is for protection. No one is arguing what the wall is for. However, the consequences of the wall being there for the Israeli's "protection" is natural segregation and an us-vs-them dichotomy that makes them only hate each other and leads to continued conflict.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by jondave
All I can say is Jews are Gods chosen People, I wish I was one.



Go to the link below and type "God" in for the name and hit search:

www.yadvashem.org...


Interesting last name for a Jewish person wouldn't you say?
edit on 6-1-2012 by Pervius because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 09:52 PM
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no semite is jewish it dont make you anti jewish only anti israel



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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There are a lot of republicans here on ATS who even though view themselves as "awoken", still have the subtle neo-conservative propaganda bias in their mind.

It's hard for them to understand the difference between Zionism and Judaism.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
Hitler was a self hating Jew and so is the President of Iran and i do cringe when the op said " my mom is christian my dad is Jewish".

Which means if you do not live in Israel or had the full fledge upbringing of rockets being shot at you everday it would appear to me that when a person says they are Jewish and have not experienced the racism and the every day life that they go through in Israel.

Well thats like me saying im Irish cause my family is from Ireland doesn't fly i say it does make you an anti semite because like most people they based their views of what other people say. exerpeicen

What do i know.


The Jews who were killed in the holocaust were not living in Israel, and they did not experience "rockets shot at them from palestinians"

Were they any less Jewish? Get real man, it's a mixed culture, religion, and ethnicity in modern times.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by Drezden
There are a lot of republicans here on ATS who even though view themselves as "awoken", still have the subtle neo-conservative propaganda bias in their mind.

It's hard for them to understand the difference between Zionism and Judaism.




Zionism is the perfection of Judaism. Read your Hebrew Texts. A bloodline that's destined to rule above all as ordained by......



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by satron
If no one can say either way, then the argument is absurd.


I can say that if "anti-zionists" were genuinely interested in "human rights" they would not focus exclusively on Israel, because there is worse going on in the world. Like another poster said, a missile drops in Israel and its all over the news. Millions get displaced in Sudan and its hardly worth a mention. Odd that, isnt it?

I can also, with accuracy, say that Israelis and arabs live peacefully side by side in Israeli soil. Check out this arab who plays soccer alongside Israelis as one example of many, for example.

Which proves that the wall to Palestine is not about discrimination but protection.

Reality is easy to prove.
edit on 6-1-2012 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)


I realize there are alot of good people in Israel, but there are also alot of hardcore right wing settlers that don't help the situation. Wrecking farms and burning olive groves, while constantly expanding the borders and setting up shop on Arab lands. The government of Israel is more sympathetic to these settlers cause I believe they have the same goals, to expand. Your soccer story is tear jerking but far from the truth. Women can't even ride in the front of busses in certain parts of Israel. Most of the hardcore jews see arabs and gentiles as a whole as animals therefore expendable according to the Talmud.



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 01:54 AM
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Originally posted by jondave
All I can say is Jews are Gods chosen People, I wish I was one.


I think that mindset is the reason they have been kicked out of 100+ countries to date.



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 02:49 AM
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reply to post by Frankidealist35
 


Firstly, you are not Jewish nor "part" Jewish. Judaism is based upon a religion not a particular racial bloodline.

Either you are Jewish or you're not. You are not.

Are you anti-semtitic? Your mother is not semetic and it depends where your father's origins are from. Perhaps he's not a truely Jewish at all since you have no idea as to who is a Jew.

Usually a child's religion is based upon upon the mother in some religions, Judiasm is one of them unless one goes through a Halakhic conversion. But this has nothing to do with "lineage" as religion is not a race.

May I also add, you don't have to be Jewish to believe in the 10 Commandments of Torah. Torah was not explicitly written for the Jews but rather the decendants of the Hebrew tribes which included those who joined them in the Exodus out of Egypt.

The origins of the word "Jew" (an English word for "Yehudi") is derived from the people (Judeans) of the territory of Judah - being the tribe or decendants of Judah (son of matriarch Leah) through the House of David and Solomon.

Today, most Jews allege they are decendants of the Judeans but there are still Hebrew decendants out there from the Tribes of Reuben, Simon, Levi, Zebulun, Nephtali, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Dan, Joseph & Benjamin (2 sons of Rachel).

Technically, the Levite Tribe (high priest status - goes to the Kohans and Levites) is promoted through the patrilineal lineage.....maybe the same could be said of Joseph's decendants through his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh since Jacob (Israel) passed his inheritance on to his grandson Ephraim (whose mother was Egyptian) and not to Judah.

Numerous Israelites heroes and kings married foreign women: for example, Judah married a Canaanite, Joseph an Egyptian, Moses a Midianite and an Ethiopian, David a Philistine, and Solomon women of every description. By her marriage with an Israelite man a foreign women joined the clan, people, and religion of her husband. It never occurred to anyone in pre-exilic times to argue that such marriages were null and void, that foreign women must "convert" to Judaism, or that the off-spring of the marriage were not Israelite if the women did not convert.

Sometime during the Roman occupation and the Second Temple period, a law of matrilineal descent, which defined a Jew as someone with a Jewish mother, was adopted. By the 2nd century CE, it was clearly practiced.

Whats really important is not who is a Jew but who is a decendant of the Hebrew/Israelites that lives by Torah's 10 Commandments (and not the Christian versions) and for the Gentiles are given the 7 Commandments of Noach.

I hope I've cleared that up for you.



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 02:54 AM
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reply to post by Frankidealist35
 


this has probably already been mentioned, but.....

technically, aren't you only officially jewish if your mother is jewish?

if your mum is a Christian, i think that makes you as disposable as the rest of us



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 02:59 AM
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reply to post by Beavers
 


It means he MIGHT be partially semitic but most definately not "half" Jewish because there's no such thing.



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 02:59 AM
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I will cut and paste a little from another response to another thread.....I think it applies......I don't think I am against Israel.....but I am against all this sacrifice for it....so here is my other response that I think doesn't make ME anti-Semite.....so I don't think you are either......:

I say let Israel solve its own problems.....they don't shed one drop of blood for our wars or give us any financial aid......why are American lives chained to the defense of Israel ......We have bigger fish to fry right here at home.....it is insane to think that if Israel falls the free world as we know it will become a waste land.....anyone arguing the absolute commitment to KILL our soldiers for THEIR country is insane.....Israel is just another foreign country......NOT an American state.,.....they should be better neighbors.....or at least negotiate from a point of reason not one of immunity because of US support......LET US RID OURSELVES of THEIR wars.....

I love the Jewish people and the Jewish religion as it is that both are a rich in culture and history.....I do not LOVE a foreign country that only leaches of my taxes my military and my well being....let them solve their own problems.....or act like they care about American lives at the negotiation table



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 03:01 AM
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Perhaps it is meant because Mothers are the ones who usually do the teaching.....IMHO!



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 03:21 AM
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reply to post by bluemirage5
 


which kinda makes the rest of his post, pointless tho, no?



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 03:42 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


What about Israel's hypocritical and odious treatment of Palestinians?

Or the fact that the Israeli government intentionally exploits the Jewish faith to further their political agenda and desire for power and control?






Israel may be more tolerant than other middle eastern countries, but when the other middle eastern countries exploit their faiths for political/power gain, we call them terrorists.

...Or is it only terrorism when it is against the United States?...

edit on 7-1-2012 by ltinycdancerg because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 07:14 AM
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reply to post by Beavers
 


It certainly makes his post nil and void. There's nothing worse than my reading from some posts "I'm part Jewish" or "I have friends who are Jewish" to try and persuade me and other readers he/she is not anti-semitic. Those tricks they use to smear Israel and the Jewish community don't work for me.

The worst part is when such a non-Jewish person pulls out a portion of Torah when they have no knowledge of Torah at all but picks something off an internet site......goes without saying. Especially when it's a King James version of a Christian bible.

If a person wants to say something in regards to Israeli policies or a particular Jewish person's actions whether I'm going to agree with it or not.....just say it! But to convience me they are not anti-semitic will depend on how they say it, for what purpose if any, and their personal agenda and/or how it affects them as individuals.



edit on 7-1-2012 by bluemirage5 because: (no reason given)



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