Did Jesus die on the cross ?

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posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 07:22 AM
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If Jesus is not responsible for our sins, why would God allow him to die.


No one saw Jesus die on the cross. Several Bibles and passages say he did not die:


Bible of Barnabas: "The face of Yehuda who led the soldiers to arrest Christ was transfigured into that of Christ who had been rescued by the Angels through the window to the third Heaven."
Also the Bibles of Basilidains, Docetae, The Marcionite Gospel.


Here brothers and sisters you have 4 chosen and recognized Bibles, also Luke 20:34-36, 24:36-41, Hebrew 5:7 and John 20:17 support Jesus was saved.


The Bible says that Jesus did not die on the cross, that his loving creator saved Jesus from the cross as confirmed in the Koran. God loves Jesus.





Would a compassionate, forgiving, merciful God allow his anointed Jesus to die??


* To say he was sacrificed for us, opposes the Bible's teachings (Hosea6:6) and (Matthew 9:13 and 12:7).


* To say he died on the cross, discredits his prophethood (Deuteronomy 13:5) and (21:22-23).


The Jews claimed they killed him to prove he was a false prophet which they still believe. The Koran is here to unite the Jews and Christians and to have them submit their will to God, to be Muslims.


Where is the information on sacrifice coming from?


Paul, who was a Jew and his belief in Jewish sacrifice was transported into Christianity as suggested by a renowned New Testament scholar V. Taylor "The Atonement in the New Testament Teaching." Paul developed the idea by sending letters to the Corinthians, the Romans 4:25, He told the Galatians 6:4., and Ephesians 5:2, read the history yourself. Christianity is the teaching of Paul, not Jesus.





Who are we to believe??


Jesus came to confirm the Torah, not to destroy it (Matthew 23:2-3).


While Paul abolished the teachings of the Torah (Acts 13:39).


What hour was Jesus crucified??
(Mark 15:25) It was the third hour, and they crucified him.


(John 19:14) It was the sixth hour, and he was not yet crucified





Who bore the cross??


(Matthew 27:32) The compelled Simon to bear the cross of Jesus./ also(Luke 23:26)& (Mark 15:21).


(John 19:17) Jesus was bearing his cross himself.





What did they put Jesus on??


(Mark 15:21) They put Jesus on the cross.


(Peter 2:24) They put Jesus on the tree./ also (Gal3:13)





What did they give Jesus to drink??


(Mark 15:23) They gave him wine mingled with myrrh to drink.


(Matthew 27:34) Thew gave him vinegar mingled with gall to drink.





What happened to Judas??


(Mat 27:5) Judas went and hanged himself.


(Acts 1:18) Judas fell headlong, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.


Many earlier sects of Christians believed that it was Judas who died in the place of Jesus, with the contradictions at hand, maybe those earlier Christians were right.





Who went to the grave of Jesus??


(John 20:1) Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.


(Mat 28:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary.


(Luke 24:10) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Jo'an-na and some other women.


(Mark 16:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Sa-lo'-me.





Angel??


(John 20:12) One woman saw two angels at the grave of Jesus.


(Mat 28:2) Two women saw one angel.


(Luke 24:3) Three women saw two men.


(Mark 16:5) Three women saw one man.





Who was told??


(Luke 24:9) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary the Mother of James and Jo'an-na returned back from the grave and told the eleven apostles all of what they saw.


(Mark 16:8) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary and Sa-lo'-me returned
back from the grave, and did not tell anyone anything because
they were afraid.





During the time of the assumed crucifixion, as you see, was a time of confusion, because no one saw Jesus die. (Matthew 26:56)


But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might
fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled."


So the Qur'an says: 4:157
"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, butonly conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:"


When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?


(Matthew 27:46): ".. . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"


Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.


Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in Allah?


The sacrifice that has to be made to be forgiven for our sins is the sacrifice of our will to the Creator Allah, as confirmed in the Bible.


Not only do we rely on faith, but also action and reality all combined.We believe in the same God, you have been taught by the recipients of your hard earned 10% of your income tithing that the Koran is not the word of God, that is sad, because then you would learn as every chapter begins "God is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful."


In Islam, only 3% of your income goes straight to the poor, such as a relative. None is required to go the Church or Mosque. 3% of the wheat in the world would feed all the starving.




posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 07:23 AM
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posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 10:26 AM
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Almasad,

Solist Mysticism espouses that Jesus did not die on the cross. We consider him along with all the other figureheads in traditional religions (e.g., Buddha, Muhammed, and Moses) to all have been prophets. The basically spiritual prophets, like Jesus, were “angel prophets.” The prophets that were not or are not spiritual, like the pedophile swami, Sai Baba in India, are categorized as “subangel prophets.”

The entity, Seth (who claimed to have been a minor Catholic pope), through the late Jane Roberts in the 1970s, stated that Jesus was not betrayed by Judas, but saved by him. He also stated that Jesus escaped incarceration, that he did not die on the cross, and that the whole crucifixion scenario was a “psychic event” -- not a physical one.

The reason why Jesus told people after he "rose from the dead" not to touch him is precisely because he did not die. The stigmata on his hands were a telekinetic manifestation of the large collective of discarnates who gave him his gifts.

Jesus belonged to a large Group Entity of basically spiritual discarnates or angels, and incarnated with the purpose of fulfilling Old Testament messianic prophecy. He traveled extensively (e.g., Turkey, Persia and Afghanistan), and was a Rabbi (by definition: a Rabbi has to be married). He became known as a great prophet who went by the name, Yuz Asaf, and was married to Mary Magdalene who traveled with him.

Mary was regarded as a spiritual teacher in her own right and was never a prostitute! The prostitute story was a fabrication that was furthered by people who felt threatened by her influence on the early church.

The letters of Paul were never authorized by him to start a new Church; they were used by Christian forces to solidify the divinity of Jesus in the hearts and minds of people. After being beheaded, Paul learned that Jesus was not God or one with The Original Creator but part of a large Group Entity of angels. To his humiliation and shame, he vowed never again to be manipulated by a large Group Entity and to teach the truth about them.

Jesus and Mary settled and eventually died in Kashmir; Jesus' tomb was traced and found in Khanyar Street, Srinagar.

Here are a couple of good reference links to confirm that Jesus never died on the cross and to indicate where he traveled and eventually passed:

Jesus Escaped Death On The Cross & Went To India -- by an Islamic scholar

Jesus Lived In India After The Purported Crucifixion -- by a German scholar

The German author (Holger Kersten) did not know about the large Group Entity that gave Jesus his Gifts of Healing, Stigmata, Materialization, Charisma, etc., the same of which later terrified Saul/Paul of Tarsus (by blinding him and throwing him off his horse on the road to Damascus) into forming a new church around their chosen prophet and speaker. Due to this ignorance, the author puts down Paul for that which was essentially the fault of a large Group Entity that worked through and around him, just as other Group Entities are currently at work through and around the Christian population today -- although not like they used to be.

Finally, I’d like to point out that all the traditional religions on this planet were orchestrated by large Group Entities (combined spirits) and not by the God Realized Master (AKA The Original Creator) who initiated The Big Bang. If He were truly here, then most of this world’s population would immediately convert to His One True Religion. Why? Because any being who could manifest BILLIONS OF GALAXIES would also be able to heal MILLIONS OF PEOPLE of terminal affliction on a daily basis. Compassion dictates evolution. There would be no question from anyone in their right mind as to His divinity.

The Original Creator is not an underachiever.

He has simply yet to emerge in this space-time continuum.




[Edited on 11-9-2004 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 12:20 PM
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There are many arguments over the flesh of Jesus. What is it important for?

The flesh of Jesus was cruelly slain, but the Power of Spirit never was within the flesh, nor can it be slain.

It seems certain to me that the historical accuracy of the New Testament can be trusted with the story of crucifiction. But I would ask, why is it important?

The concept of a man dying to save other men from their sins by some mystical property of vicarious savlation is offensive to me. Jesus' death didn't save a single person by the act of dying, but rather by creating a dramatis personae powerful enough to act as a catalyst for his teachings. This was the manner of His death.

The muslim says that Koran teaches that he did not die upon the cross, and this is fine for them to believe. The Christian says he died, and rose again, and later ascended to heaven. Either way, it is not the true understanding of salvation.

None of these beliefs reveal the truth of the matter, which is understood only by knowing the spirit of Jesus in truth. There is no such thing as vicarious redemption. Only knowledge and the pefection of one's own mind will allow you to overcome death and hell.

It is common for Christians to expect Christ to save them in their sins, or that his gore might cleanse them in some way. What they believe in their hearts is a monstrosity. It is a horrid falsehood taught to the children that the death of Christ is what saved mankind. It is remarkably foolish and spiritually dangerous to believe this over the course of one's life.

The Muslim teaching is more accurate in this reguard, for they believe that each soul must work out his own salvation. I would go further than this and say, each soul must work out his own salvation, though he might be guided by those in heaven and by other spirits. Yet the whole purpose of life is for the development of the individual, with immortal life in paradise the reward for those who attain it.

Of all the religions in the world, I would venture to say that Christianity is the most corrupted, misunderstood, and abused of all. I have seen more vile Christians than I have any other creed, whose thoughts are works resemble the work of the demons more than any of the saints.

Christ wasn't a completely unique figure, and much of his dramatis personae was built around him by assimilating already existing myths. This was done by the wise apostles who were trying to deify Jesus to the minds of the vulgar. However, it isn't possible to teach the vulgar of deity - It is contrary to the nature of wisdom to abide in the profane.

The Divinity of Christ is not to be doubted. But there is no means of transmitting this knowledge by books, stories, or any other means of human communication. Divnity can only be received by the divine, and salvation is for the divine ALONE. The animal and the vulgar are destroyed.

The myths and stories surrounding Christ are for the profane and the vulgar, along with much of the writings of the New testament. The true mysteries were never illustrated in the books, and they remain hidden to this day. The wonderous part of the true mysteries is how they are transmitted today, they are received entirely by the inspiration of the Spirit, and by interactions with other spiritual persons. That is where salvation is, and where Christ abides.

As Paul Richard says, churches and religions are all formations of group-entities. Truly ascended masters do not remain in this plane. They assist us from afar, so that we might escape this plane, the group-entities who try to bind us to themselves, and the forces of matter. This is why I say that religion is harmful to mankind in its current form, because it derails their minds from the truth of salvation, and traps them within their particular group.

There is no salvation in religion at all, and Christ 's death saved not one person. Yet the soul remains, but in what state is it found? Woe to those who do not ascend from this place.

Arkaleus



posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 05:31 PM
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Hi Arkaleus,


Originally posted by Arkaleus
There is no such thing as vicarious redemption. Only knowledge and the pefection of one's own mind will allow you to overcome death and hell...each soul must work out his own salvation, though he might be guided by those in heaven and by other spirits. Yet the whole purpose of life is for the development of the individual, with immortal life in paradise the reward for those who attain it.


I completely agree with that. Vicarious atonement/redemption doesn't exist. In addition to the quote from Emanuel Swedenborg that I use at the bottom of my posts, which applies in this case, I have also come to know that striving to live by The Golden Rule is extremely important; not only for eternal salvation but also for long-term happiness in the Spirit.


Originally posted by Arkaleus
As Paul Richard says, churches and religions are all formations of group-entities. Truly ascended masters do not remain in this plane. They assist us from afar, so that we might escape this plane, the group-entities who try to bind us to themselves, and the forces of matter. This is why I say that religion is harmful to mankind in its current form, because it derails their minds from the truth of salvation, and traps them within their particular group.


Quite true and well put.




posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 06:51 PM
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Paganism begot Judaism (2000 BC), Judaism begot Christianity (30 AD), Christianity begot Islam (600 Ad), and Islam begot Al-Qaeda.

There are now as many beliefs and deities as there were when pagans ruled, we have come full circle.

There is a higher power but that power is not the domain of any of the mentioned religions or of any one religion or belief system.



posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper
There is a higher power but that power is not the domain of any of the mentioned religions or of any one religion or belief system.


That is an excellent point.




posted on Sep, 11 2004 @ 10:49 PM
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I have become filled with the sense of compassion for the human condition.

The level of awareness that most of my countrymen maintain has evoked a greast sense of liability within my own breast, and I have come to consider my place and duty among them.

It is like becoming a father in a nation of children, many of them badly abused, ill-taught, and constantly fleeing away from instruction.

It makes me weep often, for I see the beauty of humanity and the spark of intelligence clearer than ever, and I feel quite motivated for its improvement.

I have heard of this condition as being customary to those who attain a certain degree of divinity, which I feel I have attained. The will of the True Father of Heaven seems to be rather consistent - Those of us who attain knowledge and wealth of spirit are obliged to tend the garden. It seems wise, for that particular path leads to a great treasure, and a huge storehouse of knowledge about the nature of life. After all, that is the highest science we can learn in this existence.

When I see other young men here trying to speak of heaven, or life after death, or of the basic tenants of the mind and life, I get a sense of great seperation between them and myself. How can I bridge that? You can read the very secrets of life in some of my posts, but no one ever seems to find them. It's almost as I am from a different universe.

But at the same time, I see the little children and how they look to whoever raises them for their knowledge and teaching. It frustrates me to no end to see the quality of their teachers. Millions of little lights extinguished because of the ignorance and malice of people. It is the weight and burden of my learning.

Who can comment on this post?

Arkaleus



posted on Sep, 12 2004 @ 01:55 AM
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Well, Arkaleus, and I don't mean this in an insulting manner, maybe you're just taking yourself too seriously. You seem to put your self above everyone else in some way. I don't know you, so I can't judge...maybe something has happened to you that has made you feel "above" the rest of us...who knows, but you have to remember that what you think isn't always correct. Perhapse the way the teachers teach is the right way.. You talk about the secrets of life, but maybe your secrets aren't the real ones. Again, this isn't meant to be insulting or degrading, but it might help you to humble yourself a little more. I often feel like that. I think of the people starving in other countries, people being mugged, animals being tortured, and I get sad. What I do is remember that I'm just a part of this world, and that I have a life too, which I need to live.



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 12:23 AM
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The things I described were not written to offend you. It is not always proper for men to remain humble. It is not proper for a gentleman to remove his honor to suit the envy of his neighbors.

What do I need to humble for? What have I done, or whose forgiveness do I require? If we are constantly in such a state, then we are unable to function or progress at all.

I am a liberated spirit. I am not bound by your gods, or your demons. Am I to bow and scrape because that is your constant fashion? Not at all! An uncaged bird does not return to the prison, nor does the sunbeam seek to climb back into the sun. It goes forth as a man riding, his rod upheld.

My law is equilibrium, it is golden truth and karmic harmony. It is superior to all other laws, for it is a perfect way. I have killed no one, nor have I been killed, therefore I am free of you who desire to hold me back.

Because you are still wondering, because you are still incomplete, you get angry when a complete person speaks, or shows himself, rather than hides away. That is envy, not brotherhood.

I am filled with compassion for my race, even for all mankind. Does this anger you? Perhaps you should examine your anger, and declare the truth, instead of spitting out the lie. I am not "annoying, weird, a freak, a lightshow, an ass-hole," or any other foul thing. Yet I have been called all these things by those who stare at me as I go by. The truth of the matter is like a sword cutting through weeds.

I have attained my divinity, I am chosen and called, a servant of the True Power of God. It dwells in me, and causes me to shine, and it draws all goodness to me, and goes out stronger than before. Am I to hide away, because everyone else laments, or is sick, or complains because their paths are dark?

Men with the strength of the spirit and the knowledge of power are not to hide away, nor are they to listen to the complaints of those who languish in darkness. They are to fight the demons, and drive them out of wherever they are found. They are to establish truth, demonstrate love, and speak the truth at every opportunity. Then they will overcome eveything, and no complaint or aggression will penetrate them, and the Kingdom will be laid out before all mankind.

Quit resisting me, men.

Arkaleus

[Edited on 13-9-2004 by Arkaleus]



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 03:36 PM
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Arkaleus:

I was not angry at you. Why would you assume that? I was merely stating that you may be taking yourself too seriously. I know that you shouln't restrict yourself, shouldn't' put yourself below other people, but why should you put yourself above other people? What have you done or achieved that makes you somehow more enlightened, or above other people?

[Edited on 13-9-2004 by Herman]



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 04:01 PM
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We come into this mystery called life alone, and we leave this life alone.

There have been many self-appointed messiahs from the beginning of time who have claimed superiority in the spiritual arena, usually for a fee.

This walk through life is a personal experience which requires no need for “salvation” especially from some other mortal.

Messiahs have exploited the weaknesses of others for their own purposes.

The bad we do while on this world will be with us forever, and so too the good.

We are not here for the purpose of becoming spiritually superior to others---we are here to prove to ourselves what we truly are.



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 05:56 PM
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What Did Jesus Do?

Of course, a statement like “Jesus did not die for our sins” runs afoul of prevailing Christian doctrine, but I am convinced that Jesus did not die for our sins, nonetheless. It’s my opinion, I am entitled to it, and I am willing to defend it.

Jesus is credited with so many seemingly contradictory messages not because he was a hypocrite, but because not everything credited to him was actually said by him. Having attempted to be a “faithful Christian” myself for a quarter-century, I was forced to quit in frustration after being unable to reconcile Christianity with any semblance of reason or truth.

But in doing so, I think I came to terms with who I consider to be the “real Jesus”. I have written on this at length elsewhere, but here’s the gist of my opinions on the subject:

1. Jesus was not the “son of God” or the “King of the Jews”. Jesus was a child of the Creator like all of us.

2. Jesus’ claim that “the Kingdom of God is within you” refers to this fact -- that we are each made in the image of the Creator.

3. Jesus, in seeing all people this way, was compelled to love every other human being, as we are all brothers and sisters.

4. Jesus never demanded worship or servitude, but took delight in serving his fellow men.

5. Jesus saw that sin is self-destructive, that the one most hurt by sin is the sinner (“the wages of sin is death“), and urged people away from it (“go, and sin no more”).

There’s more, like the fact that Jesus (or the biblical God, for that matter) would have never condoned human sacrifice, or ritual cannibalism and vampirism (aka “the Eucharist”), or other such pagan nonsense added later to the tale.

Jesus was a rabbi and an observant Jew who saw wisdom in the law of Moses, but that the religious practices of the Israelites were lacking in compassion and spiritualism, which he sought to bring to his fellow Jews. He would have never condoned the worship of man over God, nor that one brother should bow before another in prayer.

Needless to say, I have some strong opinions about the subject, but I’ll try to keep it semi-brief.

Dead On The Cross?

Opinions vary, and I encourage no one to believe everything they read, but that includes the Bible. Be a skeptic, or be someone’s slave.

Based on a great many different things, I am convinced that Jesus did not die on the cross, but was rescued by his fellow Essenes, led by Joseph of Arimathea who took “the body” from the crucifixion site and arranged for the “burial” (it was his tomb from which Jesus arose).

The “vinegar” on the hyssop stick was drugged with a narcotic -- again courtesy of Joseph -- which rendered Jesus catatonic and unresponsive to pain. The water which ran out with the blood when Jesus’ side was pierced was probably fluid draining from his lungs. Fluid buildup in the lungs is one of the nasty consequences of being crucified, and asphyxiation was what usually killed victims of that cruel and barbaric practice.

Per scriptural accounts, he brought large quantities of healing herbs used to fight infections and alleviate pain (not embalming spices) to attend to Jesus. It was Joseph and another Essene that Mary Magdalene saw escorting Jesus from the tomb.

The truth of this is actually rather plainly spelled out in the scriptures themselves when you look at the details, even if they are not accurately interpreted by the parade of commentators and editors who came along later, seeing fit to change things to suit their agendas.

After a time of healing, Jesus appeared physically to his disciples urging them to continue to spread the word about the “kingdom of God” and told them he had never died, but they freaked out and, even though he was obviously with them “in the flesh”, thought he was some sort of ghost.

It all went downhill from there, and the tale grew in the telling. Meanwhile Jesus, with a death sentence hanging over his head, assumed an alias (I suspect he took his father’s name, “Yusef”) and fled the Roman empire, spreading his message still, but with greater caution.

Anyway, this was a long answer to a short question: “Did Jesus die on the cross?”

Here’s the short answer: I don’t say “no”, I say “hell no!”



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 07:38 PM
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Many strange theories on Jesus!

Some say he didn't die on the cross. I doubt his enemies would have allowed such a mistake to be made. They HATED him with a fury and envy that cannot be put off very easily. Jesus himself knew that he had to die, and I doubt that such a brave child would have worked a deception. It wasn't in His character.

Some say that Jesus was married to Mary the Magdelene. This is your conjecture only. You have invented it yourselves. Bring your evidence, and it will be carefully weighed.

Most of those who speak about Jesus are totally ignorant of the power of the spirit, which was the True Power and Mystery. He didn't need to have children, he wasn't going to establish an EARTHLY KINGDOM. He was building a Spiritual Kingdom! Rejoice in this, for it is the path out of the bondage of flesh.

It is best to love one another. Men are blessed and women are blessed when the bonds of reason, gentleness, and love prevail. Evil flees away and hides under the earth. Sin withers away and vanishes, and human nature becomes like that of the angels. That is what Christ preached.

Those who are seeking mysteries, like the grail, or the cross, or the various items of mystical importance, will find dead ends and falsehood. Christ is not in the matter of this world. Christ is One with the Prime Intellect and the Light of the Universe. Go and seek it, if you are able. Throw these old rags and broken things away. You did not learn the lesson if you desire these things.

Return to your childhoods, you old men, and perform the alchemy of immortality. Don't you know anything at all? You put probes into space, and find the dead oceans of Mars, yet you don't even know yourselves beyond the skin you wear and the food you eat.

Quit worrying about Christ, He's out of your jurisdiction now. Start worrying about your own fate, death will claim every single one of your bodies. Is your spirit able to escape? Do you understand what I am talking about? You are given but a limited number of days in whcih to learn this. After that there is no more work.

Arkaleus.



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 10:27 PM
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Hi Arkaleus,

I respect your opinion but I really think you need to take Jesus down at least a few pegs on your cosmic scorecard.


Originally posted by Arkaleus
Many strange theories on Jesus!

Some say he didn't die on the cross. I doubt his enemies would have allowed such a mistake to be made. They HATED him with a fury and envy that cannot be put off very easily. Jesus himself knew that he had to die, and I doubt that such a brave child would have worked a deception. It wasn't in His character.


According to Seth through Jane Roberts, Judas didn't betray Jesus but saved him and that a man was chosen and drugged to be taken away by the Romans in Jesus' place. His disciples had no intention of letting him be captured and executed.

Only a crazy person willingly puts himself into a position whereby he could be tortured to death. Crucifixion was a common form of Roman execution.


Originally posted by Arkaleus
Some say that Jesus was married to Mary the Magdelene. This is your conjecture only. You have invented it yourselves. Bring your evidence, and it will be carefully weighed.


Sure...


For starters, by the laws of the time, a Rabbi has to be married. Jesus was referred to as a Rabbi, which means that he had to have been married!

Reference:

Was Jesus Married To Mary Magdalene, The Bible Offers Proof Of It

Here's some more evidence...

>

>

The issue of a Rabbi needing to be married comes up again:

>

>

>

Reference:

Was Jesus Married?


Originally posted by Arkaleus
Most of those who speak about Jesus are totally ignorant of the power of the spirit, which was the True Power and Mystery. He didn't need to have children, he wasn't going to establish an EARTHLY KINGDOM. He was building a Spiritual Kingdom! Rejoice in this, for it is the path out of the bondage of flesh.


Jesus came to earth to take upon the role of a Messiah. The word, "Christ," means "messiah." He fulfilled his role and a new religion was formed. His Gifts of the Spirit stemmed from a Group Entity that consisted of millions of basically spiritual people on the Other Side. His Gifts did not stem from The Original Creator or from a Godhead of Jesus as he never became God Realized.

How do we know that?

Because COMPASSION DICTATES EVOLUTION.

If there were any true Ascended Masters in the Spirit NOW, then we would not be here debating over a long dead prophet. That Ascended Master would be healing THOUSANDS of people a day of terminal affliction.

No significant COMPASSION manifested equates to no Ascended Master in the Spirit at present.


Originally posted by Arkaleus
It is best to love one another. Men are blessed and women are blessed when the bonds of reason, gentleness, and love prevail. Evil flees away and hides under the earth. Sin withers away and vanishes, and human nature becomes like that of the angels. That is what Christ preached.


These are good things. But if COMPASSION is the name of the game for being highly evolved, then why does Jesus allow THOUSANDS of innocent children to be sexually assaulted by pedophile ministers and priests around the world who preach in his name no less? If Jesus had the chutzpah to stop ONE church from doing this, it would tell us that he is of good moral character.

Just one.

Ah, but you say, that the pedophile abuse of Christian ministers and priests (and nuns) isn't Jesus' doing. Quite true. But if you or I started a new church, would we not be MORALLY OBLIGATED to ensure that none of those that "preach in our name" sexually abuse innocent children?

You bet!

Well, we can't possibly hold Jesus to our STANDARDS OF MORALITY and COMPASSION, can we?

What does all this teach us?

It points to Jesus having been only an angel prophet. He is no more divine than thousands, if not millions of other people!

Let us "call a spade a spade" here.

Jesus' lack of COMPASSION toward innocent children in his various churches that worship him in the HERE AND NOW indicates Jesus represents a FALSE GOD.

In light of this, it is high time we take the false god/angel prophet off the pedestal and concentrate on our own Radiance, good works, and living by The Golden Rule.



posted on Sep, 13 2004 @ 11:17 PM
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Brother Arkaleus,

Of course I think good men can disagree regarding just about everything involving Jesus, and I don’t consider myself any closer to the truth of the man than anyone else, but also no farther from it. As always, I offer my point of view as just that, and certainly subject to fair dispute on any and every point.

Since I covered some of this in a letter to TSOL, and am basically a lazy, lazy man, I’ll post it here for continuity of discussion, and to aid those with differing opinions on Jesus to get a further idea of how much we may really disagree. Again, offered with the admonition not to believe everything you read, and that no opinion is necessarily better than another.


(N.B. I don’t think Jesus planned to deceive anyone, and I don’t think he expected to survive crucifixion, but it was a something of a painful surprise courtesy of his Essene allies [Yoshe calls them “Yassidim” and the Zealots “Zahal”]. Also, while I don‘t know for sure, I‘m willing to bet that some of the Dead Sea scrolls would tell a much different account of his life and times. The Essenes were meticulous about keeping records, and no doubt covered his story at length. I suspect that some of this information is now in the hands of others famed for their record keeping.)

As sent to TSOL:

It's anyone's guess, of course, whether I'm closer to the truth about the man than anyone else or not. I do think it's fair to presume that anyone who has looked into the story of Jesus will agree that if nothing else, a lot of fiction obscures whatever facts may be left for us to uncover.

I know that Paul and TSOL like to point to Jesus as an example of a "sorceror prophet", and indeed, I would agree wholeheartedly with that assessment if I thought that half the miracles attributed to Jesus actually occurred. Instead, I am finding myself increasingly convinced as I meditate on this that Jesus really did little except to bring hope to so many people who had long ago abandoned hope in the face of yet another foreign occupation, and the trials and pains of life on earth that we all must face.

What was less clear to me before, but is becoming much more obvious, and disturbingly so, is that his messages and his ministry with his wife Mary (as important a part of the team as Jesus, in my opinion, a fact lost to history) were enshrouded in many levels of political, religious and spiritual intrigue. He was an idealist surrounded by pragmatists, and this was his downfall, of a sort.

I don't think he really understood, until after his painful brush with death, how much of a firestorm would eventually develop around him. He was a Zealot, and an Israeli patriot, but not their leader -- that was apparently the domain of people like Joseph of Arimathea (political/financial) and Barabbas (military).

In pointing to Jesus as the Messiah who would throw out the Romans and restore the Kingdom of Israel, the Zealots sealed his fate -- and their own. If there was betrayal surrounding Jesus' arrest, I think the blame for it lies squarely with the Zealots, who portrayed him as something he was not, blinded as they were in their desire to restore the dignity of Israel and drive out the Romans against all odds, and at all costs.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your point of view), Jesus survived crucifixion, but not without bearing for the rest of his life terrible and crippling disfigurements that would make him easy to identify. This was a heavy burden and a bitter turn of fate for a fugitive from a Roman death sentence who was also feared and reviled by so many of his countrymen.

His craftsman's hands had become twisted and worthless for work, his back a bent and horrible mass of scars, his walk a limp. He had become like a broken old man who had been in his prime only a short while before. If not for Mary's love and timely aid from her family and the Essenes, he would have certainly perished long before he did.

I don't think he ever lived to see the religion that built up around him -- not physically, at least. But I think that his spirit, wherever it may be, knows of this and is grieved by it.

The great irony of all this lies in the fact that despite my enduring, passionate and irreconcilable objections to the cults and questionable practices of worship that have been built up around Jesus, I think he may have actually been on to something. While I do not consider him a "Messiah" as defined by classic Judaism (the Romans left when they were good and ready, and not a moment before), I think he did have a message that was worth listening to.

What was it? That the Kingdom of God is within us. Opinions about the meaning of that key phrase vary, but I take it to mean that the image of the Creator exists in every soul. This is something that I have witnessed, in my own rather odd way, in looking within.

Seeing that we are all truly brothers and sisters, it is impossible to hate one another, but rather to understand that whether Light or Darkness mark our paths, they come from and lead to the same place in the end: together.

Of course, all of this is just my opinions, and my stridency on the topic does not -- and should not -- be mistaken for truth. Rather, I think that's up for each of us to determine on our own.

At the very least, I have found it more tolerable in my mind to distinguish Jesus from Christianity, a religion I am certain he would not agree with, especially in setting him above his brothers and sisters as a god figure. Ultimately, I think he was much simpler than most people, though perhaps in so being, more difficult to understand as a consequence.

Your mileage may vary,

Majic



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 12:01 AM
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I do not accept channeled revelations. Ever. They are the work of fraudelent spirits and outright liars. Knowledge is never brought to this realm by these kinds of spirits. And never are the mysteries of kingdom given to spirits who speak in medium.

The very nature of the passage to the higher realms precludes any sort of "cooperation" from the lower relams. They are obstinant, discordant, and envious, and do not assist any spirit seeking to surpass them. Anyone who has truly known the Christ is seeking to surpass these lower realms, and will receive no cooperation from them. It's rather simple common sense.

Christ is in the sacred "place" where the common intellect of all human life springs from. This is part of the mystery that all little children are a part of. Only those who can abide these little children will be able to enter this place.

I have wondered why you do not speak of the little children. They are a part of the kingdom, and many mysteries are revealed by a careful study of their love.

Women do not bear the highest mysteries. They pretend to, but it is an empty glory they have. They desire the secrets of little children too, but are not able to enter themselves, so they attach to them in other ways, in the hopes of getting somewhere. At least, that's my observation. Women do not enter the Godhead.

I have allied myself to Christ because His doctrine is complete. The envy of the powers towards His Reign is enough to verify this. Thieves only steal from those who possess that which they do not. Christ is more than what your mediums have told you.

Christ is the celebration of the male perfection. His joy is not a female joy. If you are seeking female power, then you remain in the realms that are impermanant and eventually destroyed.

I have decided upon the path of Male perfection. I do not mingle with the Female. My Secret Faith is that of the male-child glorified, which is the truthful ray issued from the Father, which no darkness can prevail against.

My goal is not the fantasy of dreams, or the sensual pleasures of the flesh. These are the lies of women and the rebellious angels who mingle with them.

You who mingle yourselves with females are of another order entirely, your light has an end. Your power comes from the flesh, and from its generation.

Those who mingle with demons, your power is destroyed even as you live, for you are those who are alive, but dead, and will die for evermore.

Follow what you will, I too am following.

Arkaleus



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 02:28 AM
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I didn't catch your last post until later, so you deserve to be addressed.

You solists have given me kind words, therefore I will respond with kind words, and I will be fair to you as you have to me.

I do not accept the veracity of the documents you provided me concerning the "marriage" of Jesus. Magical spirits, channeled aliens, and female mediums are notorious for their deceptions, and susceptibility to spiritual influence form the lower regions. However, I do not argue this from simply a traditional standpoint. I argue from the foundation of understanding the mystery of Christ.

The powers of flesh and the generation of fleshly offspring are not what Jesus taught. That is not the doctrine of Jesus at all. Jesus was not a Pharisee, as were the Rabbis of his time. He bitterly opposed the Pharisees, and publicly derided their hypocrisy. Why do you make the rather blind assumption that he would be married like the Pharisees were? He lived in a manner totally contrary to them. His lifestyle and constant rambling would not have made him a good husband for any female. Some of the apostles were married, I cannot recall which ones.

If Jesus were married, or if marriage was a doctrine of his, then he would have expounded upon it in the same plainness as his other teachings, but his mission was not to establish an earthly dynasty. This is also why it might be so alien to many of you that Jesus would willingly go to a tortuous death. I reason that this was done because Jesus wished to use his flesh as a tool against the powers of the flesh, and martyr himself so that his teachings and disciples would be become forever enshrined among the people. He was indeed a ransom for many, because of his heroism and fearless sacrifice of his body [How useless is the flesh of this world!] That is the true lesson of the slaughter of the lamb, and why I am not kindly towards Christians who believe that his slaughter is the vehicle for their cleansing.

Mormons make this same "marriage" mistake, and it is a remarkable invention by those who serve the god of flesh, not by the followers of Jesus. You see, the god of the flesh and the God of Jesus are not the same things. Jesus was careful in his teachings because the god of flesh is the ruler of the earth and the lower heavens, and most of the life here serves his power. His teachings provided his disciples a path out of his tyranny. This is why such a anger was stirred up against him. He obviously did nothing wrong towards the law, thus they could not find fault with him.

The awareness of the god of flesh is impressed upon us all because of the tyranny of his power. Jesus taught the secret of overcoming his tyranny by perfection, and by the divine knowledge of the True God. Only by perfecting the laws of the god of flesh, and a little bit of fortitude, can you escape the tyranny of the god of the powers, and his earth. He is quite opposed to the passage of spirits beyond his domain, and causes all manner of persecutions to befall those that he can catch upon the earth attempting to do so. He controls the demons, and will use them in anger against those who displease him.

He also manifests through women, and causes them to conceive things pleasing to him, it is the fruit of their womb that he enjoys. Thus his will is manifested through the mad desire of the women to cause all males to be bound to them, so they might receive their issue. Careful examination of the minds of women will reveal this error in their intentions, for it is imposed upon them by the god of flesh and his desire for dominion, and for the continuation of the process of life, which he loves. Jesus came from the place above this, and gave us the knowledge of how to reach this place, which is above the god of the flesh of the earth. I wonder at this god a bit, for he seems to have reconciled himself to me and my intentions. Most of you will not progress past the processes of life, which is the domain of this god. But it is where you belong.

He is also capable of great kindness, for example, he is tolerant of my observations of his nature, and also seems ambivalent towards my will of escaping his domain to join my brothers with Christ. This is because he states that I have demonstrated that my intentions are noble, and not that of the rebellious or evil. Perhaps I do not do him proper justice because of my ignorance, but I am sure he understands why I am a little put off by things that seem to emanate from his tyranny. The simple rule when dealing with the god of the flesh is to have no evil in you. but even as I write this, I am cautioned to be tactful. Such is proper, as he is still a potent god. But I cannot call him the Most High, for I have seen past him. This is Christ's teaching in me, and I have no fear in what I know to be true. My place is to speak the truth, and to liberate others who are able to be liberated.

This god of flesh was described in detail by the Gnostics, and it is commonly understood that this deity was the old testament god worshipped by the prophets, and by the priestly class of Israel. If you wish to learn more of this and become wise, then read the Gnostic scriptures with this understanding.

Jesus was not a society man. He was not accepted by the Pharisees, who were considered to be the pillars of Israelite society at that time. He would not have married among the women, because that was the will of the god of flesh, and he did not serve the god of flesh, but his Father only.

First of all, the greatest love is not from women. This is not the sweetest fruit. This is why women are so angry against male liberty, and so vile in its persecution. It leads them away from their female influences, and into the manly repose of their brotherhood. Christ loves the sweetest fruits, not the rotten grapes of female envy. Women desire sensual things, and to attach to the pure males, so that they might share the sense of their desire with them, in the hopes of catching the virgin males who carelessly enjoy the fruits of sweetness. I have borne their wicked persecutions for so long, I have become bitter towards their lust and envy. This is why I am mistrustful of all but the most holy of the females, and of every man who serves them.

Some of these things I know because I am patterned after the nature of Christ. I am able to see how his relationship with his mother was, she was not greater than he at all, but protected him for as long as she could, until his own development was strong enough to go out into the world. When it was, the world was never the same. That is the proper understanding of mother and child. The mother is not higher than the son at any time. Nor is the female praised before the son of man.

Your reaction to this is the truest of tests, to see where your hearts belong.


***
Paul Richard, you are often quoting women, and seem to deal a great deal with females. This gave me some misgivings when we first met. I do not consider females a source of any knowledge. They only know what has been said before. There is a reason for this, because earthly females are a closed formation, and have never penetrated the tyranny of the god of their powers.

Beware, for there is no enlightenment in the female, except the reflection of the god of flesh, and the powers he has enslaved into his system. Their glory is a false one, and this too is explained in the Gnostic teachings. Their wisdom, which you say is channeled, is dubious, and I do not trust it. I have felt genuine heart in you, but I cannot accept these females as you do.

However, I am willing to accept that some females are able to escape the tyranny of the powers, and able to resist the immense psychic pressure put upon them. These would also receive the same gifts of the true spirit, and be able to perceive and speak the truth. But these I would carefully weigh.

You have expressed some concern about where I place Christ on the "cosmic scale." I do not share the same view as you concerning the nature of the One True God. I do not share the view of profane Christians either, and what I call Christ I really can't express to you, as it is part of the fullness of my being.

Christ is my brother in a very real way, and we have a bond that is not cast by books or empty faiths. I have knowledge of his spirit that is not common. I am able to perceive some of his intentions, and plumb some of his mysteries, though no record of them exist, and I can perceive secrets long since destroyed by envious hands. Christ came to establish the government of this world and displace the tyranny of the powers of the god of flesh, and to liberate those who suffer under his terrible rule of sin and punishment.

I am an insufferable libertine, just like my brother. I hate tyranny because I am formed as a ray against it. I hate the false judges, the hypocrites, and them that manipulate the people. His spirit runs through my veins, and I will one day wear a garment like him. Beyond this, there are the thrones, and the crowns. Such are the ranks of his government, which is called the House of Perfection.

I have chosen Christ because that is where I come from, I know my own spirit, and my own house, I am called of My Father. I have not done so because the book tells me, but rather because I am sent by him, called by him, and chosen by him.
***

And that, my good gentlemen, is my faith and creed.

Take from it as you will, I too am taking as I like.

Arkaleus


[Edited on 14-9-2004 by Arkaleus]



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 12:41 PM
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Hi Majic,


Originally posted by Majic
I know that Paul and TSOL like to point to Jesus as an example of a "sorceror prophet", and indeed, I would agree wholeheartedly with that assessment if I thought that half the miracles attributed to Jesus actually occurred. Instead, I am finding myself increasingly convinced as I meditate on this that Jesus really did little except to bring hope to so many people who had long ago abandoned hope in the face of yet another foreign occupation, and the trials and pains of life on earth that we all must face.


First off, TSOL and I avoid the term, "sorcerer prophet." What we use is "angel prophet," meaning someone who channels one or more Group Entities in the Mid Realms, and "subangel prophet," meaning someone who channels one or more Group Entities of common spirits in the Lower Realms.

Secondly, the reason why Jesus and Christianity was successful is because of the telepathic and healing influence of a large Group Entity of millions of basically spiritual people or 'angels' that empowered Jesus as a Messiah; these provided him with various Gifts of the Spirit which were above and beyond what anyone else had at that time.

There were other mystical leaders and prophets at that time that had Gifts but none of them were as powerful as that which channeled through and around Jesus.

Jesus' message was not all that controversial. He often quoted Old Testament scripture. What made him stand out from the crowd of prophets and mystics of his day were the Gifts of the Spirit that he had. Without those Gifts, Jesus would have faded away into relative obscurity.


Originally posted by Majic
I don't think he ever lived to see the religion that built up around him -- not physically, at least. But I think that his spirit, wherever it may be, knows of this and is grieved by it.


On the contrary, Jesus knew that he was the central figure of a new religion forming around him. That was why he incarnated in the first place.

The beginning of any new religion is not a closed system, as there is constant interaction between Spirit and humanoid life. In other words, all the people that were part of the Group Entity that started Christianity through Jesus continued on with their ministry after Jesus died in India and rejoined them. All the people who received Christian visions and channeled messages, got that from the Group Entity that Jesus was a part of.

So Jesus not only knew that he was the central figure of a new religion before he died, he continued to cultivate those messianic energies as a speaker within a large Group Entity.

Arkaleus,


Originally posted by Arkaleus
I do not accept channeled revelations. Ever. They are the work of fraudulent spirits and outright liars. Knowledge is never brought to this realm by these kinds of spirits. And never are the mysteries of kingdom given to spirits who speak in medium.


The generally accepted definition of "channeling" is communicating with discarnate spirits.

In light of this, ALL the "scripture" of the traditional religions, including the Old and New Testaments, were the result of channeled awareness from Group Entities.


Originally posted by Arkaleus
Women do not bear the highest mysteries. They pretend to, but it is an empty glory they have. They desire the secrets of little children too, but are not able to enter themselves, so they attach to them in other ways, in the hopes of getting somewhere. At least, that's my observation. Women do not enter the Godhead.


A chauvinistic attitude toward women is not a spiritual focus, to say the least. All souls contain within them the 'god spark' and to espouse that women are not privy to the higher states of being or of the greater mysteries, is not only untrue, but indicative of a prejudiced attitude.

This is the same kind of prejudiced attitude that led early Christian leaders to further the lie about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute -- because they felt threatened by her influence on the early church.

Jesus was a very good prophet, mainly because he had many Gifts of the Spirit.

But he has proven himself over the centuries and today to be a very poor god of compassion.

In fact, he has proven himself to be no god at all.

That is the crux of the situation.



posted on Sep, 14 2004 @ 03:52 PM
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The Apostate Christian Speaks Out

Brother Arkaleus,

Clearly we have different viewpoints on a few things, but the fact that we can have them is something I prize beyond value.

Regarding Christian doctrine, I can understand the appeal, having spent more than half of my life attempting to be a Christian myself. At the age of 15 I “accepted Jesus as my personal savior” and still vividly recall the overwhelming joy of the Holy Spirit washing over me from head to toe. But that was the easy part.

The hard part was making sense of the teachings. While I am aware of the doctrine that claims a dichotomy between reason and faith, I was ultimately unable to abandon the reason God gave to me in exchange for a false feeling of “faith”.

It is important to remember that the victim of any con game also has “faith” in the con artist -- until they realize they have been conned. I believe that this was the case with me and Christianity.

I assure you that I would not have chosen to become an “apostate Christian”, over the strident objections of many beloved and devout Christian relatives, if I was not sure it was the right choice for me.

Now, instead of nagging doubt and endless inner turmoil, I am finally coming to peace with myself. Doing so can only be achieved in one way that I know of, which is honest and sincere self-examination. In other words, knowing myself. You could also call it “confessing your sins”, if you prefer.

Christian Dogma Versus The Message Of Jesus

I am very much aware that my experiences are my own, and that where I failed to find “salvation”, others can and will, in their own way. So please don’t take my personal objections as an indictment of Christianity in general.

While I have personally observed some of my brothers and sisters as being led into darkness through their own attempts to embrace Christianity (if you don’t know of any, an honest examination of the “televangelist“ phenomenon can be enlightening), I am also aware that many who would have otherwise fallen into darkness have been “saved” by Christianity, as well. Christianity is a win or loss depending on the individual, like anything else.

As for Jesus, lest I give the wrong impression, I very much love who I consider to be the “real Jesus”, who is not some god figure demanding my worship, but a true brother in spirit who saw our Creator within each of us, and told us so. Strip away the falsehoods added by others to erect a false idol in the name of Jesus, and the man that remains was simple, honest and, I think, absolutely right.

The Kingdom of God is within you. We are all brothers and sisters in spirit, no matter how sinful our paths. Love others, and you will love yourself. As you judge others, so shall you judge yourself. The wages of sin is death, so go, and sin no more. And much more, all probably quite correct if interpreted from a perspective of love.

Dark and Light, Not Black And White

A message of Fear is a message of Darkness. If you act out of fear of yourself and others, and seek to lay responsibility for your own actions and future upon others, then you are following a path of Darkness.

A message of Love is a message of Light. If you act out of love for yourself and others, and are willing to take responsibility for your own actions and future, then you are following a path of Light.

Regarding “channeling spirits”, I passionately agree that we must always be cautious about who and what we choose to believe. There is far more deception than fact floating around out there, and genuine honesty is hard to find. So always be a skeptic, if not a cynic.

Bear in mind that spirits deceive in many ways, and that sometimes the best way to deceive is to present the truth in such a way as to ensure its rejection. This is why I insist that the only reliable source for truth is found within each of us, in the image of the Creator we each carry as our birthright.

The Real Original Sin

Look within, and you’ll see the truth if you persist and avoid turning away from what you find there. If you do not know yourself, all other knowledge is worthless. Turning away from the truth of ourselves is the real Original Sin, and the penalty for that sin is self-deception.

Of course, those are my interpretations and opinions, with which I most assuredly don’t expect universal agreement. But I am satisfied and comfortable with them overall (I admittedly still have much to learn), and in the end, that’s what really matters.

Your mileage may vary, because each path follows its own course, exactly as intended. May your path bring you fulfillment, wherever it may lead.

Majic





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