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Early Indoctrination + Life Experience + Brains = WISDOM? Or not.

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posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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Guys, these forums are really sort of addicting (while I'm on one of my searching crusades, anyway).

I see SO MUCH hateful wrath from people who are convinced they know.

I'm curious to find out, of the members on ATS, what age groups are you in?
If you are younger than 25, why are you so adamant that your "elders" must be wrong?
If you are 25-40, What happened in your life that you cling to your "faith" with such ferocious zeal?
If you are OVER 40, do you still believe what you did as a little kid? An adolescent? A young adult?
If you are OVER 50...
does it bother you (like it bothers me) that the youngsters (anyone under 25) are so hostlie and rabid? .... Or that the older ones seem to have a really desperate "need" to cling to something?

Life experience changes a person's outlook. That is a FACT.
What, if anything, has changed your outlook, your faith, your belief in the religion you had as a kid?

Is anyone willing to share/disclose personal stories that explain your enthusiasm, or lack of it, for your faith? Do you ever wonder: "Why do I feel so strongly about this, and so upset when challenged?"

Hope I get some traffic on this one.




posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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nm
edit on 4-1-2012 by satron because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I have one memory in particular from kindergarten that comes to mind.

I remember they had us read and sing Christmas music in class, and I thought, "is this really all we're doing? All we're capable of?" of course more kindergarteny lol

I've always been somewhat of an outcast, people seemed to be offended by me. So it's given me the distance from people I needed to see the many many things wrong with society.

And I am below 25, but i don't insist that my elders are wrong, nor am I "rabid". In fact, my dad was always like a walking encyclopedia, I have held on to a lot of information he has given me, very little, i just labeled as wrong.
edit on 4-1-2012 by pocketsando because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I'll bite... it started with conspiracies... Seeing the lies within the MSM... I felt something was wrong with a system based on greed and deciet...It made me angry... and i wanted to find truth. I started with the bible... and i found my truth... then i sought out truth from other religions, which i also found...

Eventually i came to realize conspiracies will overrun your life, because truth can not be found within them... If truth can not be found within something it becomes pointless... and thus i abandoned the conspiracies... though i still enjoy them... i just no longer care about them.

I was raised or even born into Christianity... but i had no belief in God. Church was pointless... filled with judgemental individuals... and i always felt "out of place" within...

Since i've studied on their books on my own without anyone looking over my shoulder correcting me, i have found God... Or perhaps he has found me... And in finding God i have also found peace...

Now i don't need a label for my beliefs... i know what i know... And all the credit goes to God.




posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I'm in the 50-60 age range.

In my opinion, personal life experience and brains alone are insufficient for a complete human being to face the "singularity" (as we are).

We really need to see that there have been billions of life experiences and viewpoints. The best and brightest of these have communicated something of what they feel important and our individual selves are so tiny in the avalanche of human knowledge which we can lay claim to.

In fact, the volume of knowledge is so vast that navigating such a storehouse would be beyond human grasp, so thankfully we have search engines and specializations.

Just my 1cent.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by pocketsando
 


Thanks for responding!!
Were you brought up with a certain "religious indoctrination"? Were you taught that it was unacceptable to question authority, or to think for yourself?

I'm glad to hear your dad did well by you....
please, keep in mind, I am (in the OP) addressing not ALL people under 25, but those who ARE rabidly ferocious that "their way" is the "right way", and have no interest in listening to people , whether older or younger, who have a different point of view which can be backed up by research and facts.

Cheers!!
Your dad would be proud!



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



I'll bite... it started with conspiracies... Seeing the lies within the MSM... I felt something was wrong with a system based on greed and deciet...It made me angry... and i wanted to find truth. I started with the bible... and i found my truth... then i sought out truth from other religions, which i also found...

Eventually i came to realize conspiracies will overrun your life, because truth can not be found within them... If truth can not be found within something it becomes pointless... and thus i abandoned the conspiracies... though i still enjoy them... i just no longer care about them.

I was raised or even born into Christianity... but i had no belief in God. Church was pointless... filled with judgemental individuals... and i always felt "out of place" within...

TOTALLY get what you're saying.
Thanks for chiming in!

I was like that, too...raised into Christianity (Episcopal, Anglican), and at a young age I was like, "What? What did I do? What was I supposed to do? Why am I having to apologize all the time?"



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes

what age groups are you in?
If you are 25-40, What happened in your life that you cling to your "faith" with such ferocious zeal?

What, if anything, has changed your outlook, your faith, your belief in the religion you had as a kid?

Do you ever wonder: "Why do I feel so strongly about this, and so upset when challenged?"


1. My faith, spirituality or conscience thought of the "unseen" is the first thing I remember....Everything after was sort of blurred right up to this very moment at this keyboard.....I search through vague memories of a more noble mind.....that is my nostalgia.....why I linger....if I linger....

2. Yes.....I can't.....for the love of me.....avoid drinking the klingon blood wine.....lol....

I don't know...Some things just are the very life I am living at that moment....and I´ll be damned before I submit them.....lol

I remember being at a cathedral here in Spain with my family when I was like 3 or 4......we were on vacation.....I was standing on a line with my family to enter a small "holy" cave next to the cathedral.....The sun was very bright that day....I remember looking at something....what I don't remember....and my mom grabbed my arm and sort of "interrupted me"......when we settled on the line again behind my dad....

I remember I took my right index and middle finger and made a sort of motion on my left forearm....It was because my mother interrupted some sort of process I was undergoing mentally.....I think I had it often....it was like a ritual of thoughts and "activities"....I can't explain it....like a habit of counting dots on a ceiling or lines in a tile floor.....while moving an imaginary object over passing light poles in a flight path avoiding certain obstacles....just examples of what I think they were like..... I can't actually remember that much detail about what exactly I thought then....but

when I made the motion with my hand over my forearm...I remember I thought to myself how wondrous it was that I "could" do it....like it was a secret I couldn't believe I was allowed to know....like I was conscience that the original thought of it........knowing it.....was immense....

I felt as though I could do anything....I felt like a ghost in a train station.....things happening all around me but I was focused in a reality that passed through it all......that is as best I can describe......



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


My first comment is to the question posed in your thread title. I am one who believes that it is more likely to take life experience and brains to overcome early indoctrination if Wisdom is to be achieved in one's lifetime. I would perhaps substitute a thirst for knowledge in its place, and the determination to seek it.

As far as age groups go, I am chronologically 50 years old, although younger in my heart than my age perhaps indicates. I have met as many incredibly bright, talented, gifted and remarkable young people through ATS as I have met people of my own generation who are close-minded, bitter, jaded and otherwise arrogant with their views on life. I honestly don't think age is a factor either way. Experience can be a most beautiful teacher, but only if her lessons are embraced, and the journey continued. Unfortunately, experience is just as often used as an excuse to cement one down to a close-minded and narrow perspective.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by Open2Truth
 



My first comment is to the question posed in your thread title. I am one who believes that it is more likely to take life experience and brains to overcome early indoctrination if Wisdom is to be achieved in one's lifetime. I would perhaps substitute a thirst for knowledge in its place, and the determination to seek it.

That is precisely my point. I agree with life experience and brains being tantamount to developing wisdom.

I don't know if you misconstrued my meaning....
but I am one of those thirsty folks. I also know many young people who are willing to think critically (my two kids, for example, and number of their chosen friends), and are still having life experience (like we all are)...
from which to learn. I talk with them openly and honestly about their thoughts, beliefs, ideas; we are able to discuss things spiritual without being nasty to one another or defensive.

My question was more directed to the fanaticals that are on these forums, who perpetually stick their fingers in their ears and say "Lalalala I can't hear you! No, nonono, I won't read that!"

But thanks for chiming in!

I honestly don't think age is a factor either way.

Excellent point, and brilliantly written. So... to what do you attribute the closed-minded people who won't hear what others say?
ETA THE ABOVE.
edit on 4-1-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





If you are 25-40, What happened in your life that you cling to your "faith" with such ferocious zeal?
.

After living a life of drugs, promiscuous sex with a little bit of adultery thrown in there, alot of hatred and anger topped off with a cherry of selfishness, i was living a life of darkness. I lived that way for 14 years starting at the age of 17. I had been abused everyday of my life frm the age of 3 to the age of 17, suffered from a broken home because my dad was beating my mom all the time and she had enough and finally divorced him. Well, because he was a freemason and so was the judge he ended up getting custody of my brother and i at the age of 10 so the hell continued without any protection from my mother from then on. My dad would be an evil bastard 7 days a week and my brother and i would get beaten just before church on Sunday morning and sit on the front pew and raise his hands to God in worship all holy like, he was suppsedly pentecostal from Elizabethtown First Assembly of God in Kentucky. I lived in terror for so long and i hated him for his hypocrisy and everyday i prayed God would strike him dead. It never happened. I lost my faith in God, and turned my back on Jesus and ran away at the age of 17 when i was a senior in highschool.

Not long after that i began drinking, doing drugs, being sexually promiscuous and a few years later i was having sex with a married woman. I lived in darkness for 14 years. One day i started waking up and looking at myself and what i had done. I heard jesus calling out to me deep within my soul. I felt like i was always at war and i never had a moment of peace because i was consumed with hate and anger for so long it had poisoned my soul. I wanted to be free. I hit my knees and cried out aloud to the Lord to forgive me. I saw all the horrors i had done, the twisted wreckage and wasteland that was my life. A few days later i was taking some kids from school to a field trip at a local church that was made form a bowling alley and an old skating rink and they let the kids use those facilities in free events and one of the deacons shook my hand and invited me to join them the following sunday. I had misgivings about going in, at first. I was afraid i'd burst into flames, but when i walked through the door i didn't It felt like finally coming home. About a month later i finally recieved the peace i desired so much in my soul. The need and desire for redemption was the driving force for me to turn my life over to Jesus Christ.

Looking back on how i turned away from him still hurts me to look back and think on and it makes me cry, starting to tear up now just talking about it. I was a fool and a wicked one at that. You do not know what evil is until you saw who i used to be, you really don't. I was the type of person that could kill you and not lose a wink of sleep over it. I was spiritually dead, like i literally had no soul but when I heard the Messiah call to me i couldn;t refuse him.

Non believers like to make fun of believers, but you know what? I was a non believer once too, and a scumbag at that. I looked into the face of darkness and hate. No one can tell me i don't know what it's like, i lived it. I was there exactly 1 year ago this month. The desire for redemption is a powerful force, even more so to those who know they have done wrong. I may never be able to make any of the things right that i have done, but by God i plan on trying as hard as i can to make amends till the day i die. Redemption, a powerful word.

edit on 4-1-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:17 PM
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Im in the high end of 25-40. I had an ateist father who questions authority and is very knowledgeable to science/nature and a mother that belifs in something more, that is caring, but cannot always face the brutality of the system.

I was also always a bit of a loner when I was young but unlike my father I wanted to fit in but was not able to with my ideals intact. The thruth is that my mind was in a way nice/healthier before I got my early indoctrination and Im happy that I am getting rid of that crap.

For me:
Wisdom=Life experiance and a mind that can see thru indoctrination and questions everything.

The indoctrination that I learned was most of how bad humans can be when the are in a group when they have ego/bullyleaders. If there is an afterlife then the best thing for me would probably be a total amnesia of this life because I don't belive this life have evolved me to be more harmonious than I was before this life. My mind is very much stuck on Judgement/Justice/Karma and I don't wanna be anywhere close to people who are not kind/enlightened. I love my peace/harmony to much to waste my efforts on the people that are like demons.

Namaste



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Thanks for the reply to my post.

It wasn't my intention to infer your belief in the equation posed in the thread title, only my disagreement with its principle.

To be honest, I believe that many of my generation are holding on to dear life to an understanding and education in the ways of the world which no longer apply. We, as a whole, succeeded based on these rules. Many of my generation do not see that these rules are being abandoned because they are no longer effective. They mistakenly chalk up the plight of our world and the younger generation to not following in their example. I believe this makes them, for lack of a better term, cranky at times.


The world has changed, more rapidly so between these generations as perhaps almost any in history. The younger set would do well to seek out the experience of their elders to help them navigate the choppy waters. Equally, my generation would do well to open to the possibility that the world has truly changed, and perhaps listen - truly listen - to the younger folks who are living up to their eyeballs in it.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Looking back on how i turned away from him still hurts me to look back and think on and it makes me cry, starting to tear up now just talking about it. I was a fool and a wicked one at that. You do not know what evil is until you saw who i used to be, you really don't. I was the type of person that could kill you and not lose a wink of sleep over it. I was spiritually dead, like i literally had no soul but when I heard the Messiah call to me i couldn;t refuse him.

Non believers like to make fun of believers, but you know what? I was a non believer once too, and a scumbag at that. I looked into the face of darkness and hate. No one can tell me i don't know what it's like, i lived it. I was there exactly 1 year ago this month.


Lonewolf, I want to thank you for this disclosure. It is glaringly honest, heartfelt, and sincere.

We all have pain when we look at our past behaviorsand situaions. I congratulate you for having inherently recognized it. It really matters not one whit "which" Messiah, or deliverance, or "correction" you chose. You found a way, and that is what matters.

I hurt for the pain you endured, and I sincerely hope that you find the peace that you so much deserve. Again, thanks, for being open and honest and disclosing.

Blessings,
wt



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by apushforenlightment
 



For me:
Wisdom=Life experiance and a mind that can see thru indoctrination and questions everything.

The indoctrination that I learned was most of how bad humans can be when the are in a group when they have ego/bullyleaders. If there is an afterlife then the best thing for me would probably be a total amnesia of this life because I don't belive this life have evolved me to be more harmonious than I was before this life. My mind is very much stuck on Judgement/Justice/Karma and I don't wanna be anywhere close to people who are not kind/enlightened. I love my peace/harmony to much to waste my efforts on the people that are like demons.

Namaste


Namaste.

I appreciate your contribution, and I, too, am inclined to surroud myself with people who are kind and enlightened. Thank you for responding!

You (and the others who have taken the time to respond ) are helping me very much, and I hope that this outlet for you has been cathartic, and helpful as well. (Was not my original intention, but if it serves, well, it serves!)

In my belief, you won't (as far as as I understand and believe) have amnesia, but rather a chance to review in a safe place. To look at what transpired, at what you experienced, and have the opportunity to think it over without pain. Then, you will again be free....

Brightest and warmest regards,
wt



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


I had my awakening last year in february so it seems to be something that is going around
.

You see it from a Christian/Jesus side and I sometimes have a problem with Christianity because I feel it do not always tell the whole picture, but I am sure that we are serving the same devine.

Im just tired of the wait and want whatever change is coming to be over with. I am a tool that is striving for the highest ideals. I do it because it is the right thing to do. I will always question everything even god/all and I will always want him/her to follow the highest ideal. Let the will of the everything/god/all be done.

Im happy that you are doing better
. Love a soulbrother. Namaste



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by Open2Truth
 



The world has changed, more rapidly so between these generations as perhaps almost any in history. The younger set would do well to seek out the experience of their elders to help them navigate the choppy waters. Equally, my generation would do well to open to the possibility that the world has truly changed, and perhaps listen - truly listen - to the younger folks who are living up to their eyeballs in it.


I am 53 years old. It astonishes me daily how much things have changed over the last three decades. My two kids (23 and 21) are the beacons by which I see what is happening, as well as the new "media" -- the internet, etc. They do listen to me with warmth and acceptance, and at the same time know they are safe to voice their refutations and objections, which I welcome. My goal is to stay connected to them, while still acknowledging what I have learned. By sharing it with them, I continue to allow them to think critically about it.

I think I'm doing a pretty good job of it, so far.

It's a rough, rocky road.

Thanks again, for your contribution!
--wt
edit on 4-1-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by apushforenlightment
 



Im just tired of the wait and want whatever change is coming to be over with. I am a tool that is striving for the highest ideals. I do it because it is the right thing to do. I will always question everything even god/all and I will always want him/her to follow the highest ideal. Let the will of the everything/god/all be done.

I'm tired, too.
Thanks for pitching in to the convo. I will also always question everything....
and am right on that wave with you for following the highest ideal.

Today's times are painful, confusing, and bewildering.
Namaste to you, as well (although I realize it was not directed at me personally).
--wt



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 07:36 PM
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reply to post by chr0naut
 



I'm in the 50-60 age range.

In my opinion, personal life experience and brains alone are insufficient for a complete human being to face the "singularity" (as we are).

We really need to see that there have been billions of life experiences and viewpoints. The best and brightest of these have communicated something of what they feel important and our individual selves are so tiny in the avalanche of human knowledge which we can lay claim to.


Whole-heartedly agreed.
G'night, folks. Sleep well, and peacefully.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:49 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I think also that I should be clear exactly what I am taking about:

Wisdom and knowledge are different:

I may know how to build and deploy an atomic weapon - that is knowledge.
Despite having such knowledge, I may choose not to ever build or deploy an atomic weapon - that is wisdom.

Wisdom is discernment about how to apply knowledge.

It implies moral judgement, responsibility for your actions, evaluation of the common good and estimation of possible outcomes.

A self centered standpoint cannot be trusted to equate with wise discernment. Wisdom has to be encompassing wider issues of "right and wrong" for the greater good.

King Solomon was supposed to be one of the wisest men. He is quoted as saying "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". I agree most wholeheartedly. This "fear" of the Lord arises either by direct experience or by an understanding of the direct experience of others. It is not something we can infer intellectually.

The fear of the Lord is a visceral and "felt" thing. Something deep in your gut. From it, you look to be careful about life, what you do, what you say. It is the beginning of wisdom.

My other 1cent.


edit on 4/1/2012 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



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