Islamic 'Honor Violence' Rising in the West: Warning contains disturbing scenes

reply to post by CountDrac


People should be free to practice their religion, but this is just one of those cases where Eastern and Western culture as imply incompatible. I want to have as much tolerance as is reasonably possible, but such tolerance should not extend to legitimising or acquiescing in such acts which are so grossly contrary not only to our 'Western' morals but which arguably disgust many in the Eastern world as well. I hope any and all such perpetrators are given the due sentence for such callous acts.

Yes, murder is murder. The legal system can remain blind, as is appropriate.

However I don't have to be blind, and can point out that I have no interest in importing a form a religious domestic violence.

Originally posted by Aeons
The post that I responded to was above the noted post....and all the quotes are parsed in response to me.

I thought he was asking anybody. He thanked me for my contribution after all.

The pretense that there are these huge sect differences is a farce when it comes to cultural-religious injection. All the "non-Iran" countries of "innovation" you are talking about have been undoing all modernization over the last decade.

No, I am saying that Shiites are innovators. Why would I claim that Sunnis are innovators that makes no sense... I think you lost the plot here... and it isn't a farce. Disagree till you are blue in the face, you are still ignorant and wrong.

The places where this isn't happening it is because one strong man - a king - is somewhat opposing it. For financial reasons.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

You aren't educating me. You are lying to me.

Tell yourself whatever you have to. Like I said, you can claim victory if you want.

Your discourse is dishonest. You may not realize it yet, but while you guys have skated on this sort of nonsense for a while now people are starting to notice that you don't ever actually SAY anything.

A billion people spread over a quarter of the land surface as a majority - and somehow you still try to make yourselves into a poor misunderstood minority. Unbelievable.

Originally posted by charles1952
Dear AdAbsurdum,

I stumbled across a little bit of old news that may lay at the root of American fear.

Khomeini strongly supported the spread of Islam throughout the non-Muslim world

To be fair, America also wishes to spread its brand of Democracy and Capitalism. Also, I think it is important to mention missionary work as well in regards to this. Christianity is a western religion and seeks to expand itself as well.

We shall export our revolution to the whole world. Until the cry `There is no God but God` resounds over the whole world, there will be struggle.Not just as a faith but as a state.

I don't believe he means for all Muslims here either, he wants to spread Shiite.

Establishing the Islamic state world-wide belong to the great goals of the revolution.` Which he believed would replace both capitalism and communism

... `We have often proclaimed this truth in our domestic and foreign policy, namely that we have set as our goal the world-wide spread of the influence of Islam and the suppression of the rule of the world conquerors ... We wish to cause the corrupt roots of Zionism, capitalism and Communism to wither throughout the world. We wish, as does God almighty, to destroy the systems which are based on these three foundations, and to promote the Islamic order of the Prophet ... in the world of arrogance.`

IMO, they lack any real ability to project power. This isn't really anything more than in-house PR akin to what we see from our politicians.

He certainly makes me think that the US and the world is a target.

With respect,
Charles1952

Beyond a doubt Iran is pissed at America. America has been screwing around with that country for a long time. America sold the chemical weapons Saddam used on Iran to him, as an example. Am I fearful that the Iranians are going to attack America at home? No I don't see it happening. No matter how many pretty words the Ayatollah uses.

Originally posted by Dr UAE
honor killing is un islamic , and Islam does not tolerate it.

just for your information , no where in sharia that says it is allowed or tolerated .

and before you or the others ask me , then how is this done by muslims ? the answer is that it is done by individuals that know nothing about sharia law .

Read up about your Islamic laws, It's allowed

Is this how awesome the propaganda is going to be? Oh my.

Impaler - the good thing about this kind of Iran vs. All-Other-Muslims propaganda for the next little while is that it opens up the opportunity to post everywhere and point out what nonsense this is. Ready the spikes.

reply to post by Aeons


Families Killing Their Young Women

The study's findings indicate that honor killings accelerated significantly in a 20-year period between 1989 and 2009.[6] This may mean that honor killings are genuinely escalating, perhaps as a function of jihadist extremism and Islamic fundamentalism, or that honor killings are being more accurately reported and prosecuted, especially in the West, but also in the East. The expansion of the Internet may account for wider reporting of these incidents.

Honor killings are a family collaboration. Worldwide, two-thirds of the victims were killed by their families of origin. (See Table 1). Murder by the family of origin was at its highest (72 percent) in the Muslim world and at its lowest in North America (49 percent); European families of origin were involved almost as often as those in the Muslim world, possibly because so many are first- or second-generation immigrants and, therefore, still tightly bound to their native cultures. Alternatively, this might be due to the Islamist radicalization of third or even fourth generations. Internationally, fathers played an active role in over one-third of the honor murders. Fathers were most involved in North America (52 percent) and least involved in the Muslim world; in Europe, fathers were involved in more than one-third of the murders.

Worldwide, more than half the victims were tortured; i.e., they did not die instantly but in agony. In North America, over one-third of the victims were tortured; in Europe, two-thirds were tortured; in the Muslim world, half were tortured. Torturous deaths include: being raped or gang-raped before being killed; being strangled or bludgeoned to death; being stabbed many times (10 to 40 times); being stoned or burned to death; being beheaded, or having one's throat slashed.

Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings

This is Barbaric. How can ANYONE justify this,in ANY way?

reply to post by sonnny1


By telling you it isn't religion but culture. In areas where the culture is defined by religion.

There is no defense, but they want to make sure that you feel bad for every pointing out that it happens. Somehow, this is considered tolerant progress.

Fixing it isn't a priority. The priority is to green up Islam (because you never find Hindus who will argue with you about this this way) because admission of error and fixing it is not important. All activities are only to promote Islam. Fixing it is not necessary - it is already perfect. Denial of its perfection is a state of sin. Reason is to be free of unbelief, wisdom is to live in belief, and you should forgive these human errors. Qu'ranic forgiveness is to forget something happened, or to ignore things that do not effect you.

The cultural-religious differences here are not small. They stand like an invisible wall of insanity between us, and sensibly productively dealing with this barbarity.

reply to post by duality90


Really?
So people should be free to kill innocent women in the name of religion for going to school, wearing sexy clothes or suspicion of cheating on their husbands?

Please people do your homework. And try and seporate cultural traditions
From religion. I see that is a big problem when talking about islam. I would like to jump in and debait some intresting points. But with most of these threads my words will not mater
here. All i can say is that if islam bothers you that much
. Take the time to read the holy scriptures. And research for your selfs. Dont take what others say and post it because it fits your current mind set.

Originally posted by CountDrac
reply to post by duality90

 

Really?
So people should be free to kill innocent women in the name of religion for going to school, wearing sexy clothes or suspicion of cheating on their husbands?

edit on 6-1-2012 by CountDrac because: (no reason given)

How on earth did you extrapolate that from what I was saying? I was saying that we shouldn't just allow people to commit hideous acts because it is 'a part of their culture'.

Originally posted by ShamilAbdullah
Please people do your homework. And try and seporate cultural traditions
From religion. I see that is a big problem when talking about islam. I would like to jump in and debait some intresting points. But with most of these threads my words will not mater
here. All i can say is that if islam bothers you that much
. Take the time to read the holy scriptures. And research for your selfs. Dont take what others say and post it because it fits your current mind set.

When Islamic controlled areas start doing something about this in any serious fashion, I'll consider believing you.

Actions speak louder than words. In this case, actions scream like tortured women that you plug your ears with pages from the Qu'ran so you can't hear them.

the penalty for apostasy in Islamic countries is death, that says it alll, so yeah, most Muslims are decent people, but I feel, often, it is in spite of the faith

Originally posted by blueorder
the penalty for apostasy in Islamic countries is death, that says it alll, so yeah, most Muslims are decent people, but I feel, often, it is in spite of the faith

People generally are pretty decent. As individuals.

Since Islam is collectivist and pushes collectivism they insist, and politically and religiously push that they be evaluated as a collective. As a collective, I'm certainly not impressed.

Originally posted by Aeons

Originally posted by blueorder
the penalty for apostasy in Islamic countries is death, that says it alll, so yeah, most Muslims are decent people, but I feel, often, it is in spite of the faith

People generally are pretty decent. As individuals.

Since Islam is collectivist and pushes collectivism they insist, and politically and religiously push that they be evaluated as a collective. As a collective, I'm certainly not impressed.

edit on 2012/1/6 by Aeons because: (no reason given)

I think you're still drawing a broad inference from a particular case. Perhaps certain sectors of Islam believe Apostasy should be punished by death, but the vast majority of Muslims would not wish this to be the case. A large amount of the world's Muslims live in secular societies after all, so cannot impose such a decree. Even if they wanted to, in secular societies the rule of law would typically pre-empt such a possibility. I say this as someone who grew up in an Islamic society (as a foreigner). The West tends to get a bit too scared by what they see and hear in the media - the vast majority of Muslims, although probably disagreeing with our eastern conflicts (just like many people in the west, tellingly), care as little about you as you do about them. The ones who don't are obviously a problem, but we are of course already taking fairly strong measures against such rabblerousers

Your "large" amount of those who practice Islam are under 30%. 70% of the Islamic world consistently supports hardline measures. Of the remaining 30%, there is no clear indication how many of them are even more hardline and how many are secular leaning. But the 30% probably includes a mixed bag.

I have many friends who grew up in Islamic countries, some foreigners, some not. To say that there is an acceptance and like of people as individuals amoung them would be true. To say that the people who grew up as foreigners in Islamic nations have some serious concerns about Islam would be an understatement.

I live in petroleum country. People who grew up in Islamic nations, or worked in them aren't uncommon here.

Originally posted by duality90

I think you're still drawing a broad inference from a particular case. Perhaps certain sectors of Islam believe Apostasy should be punished by death, but the vast majority of Muslims would not wish this to be the case. A large amount of the world's Muslims live in secular societies after all, so cannot impose such a decree. Even if they wanted to, in secular societies the rule of law would typically pre-empt such a possibility. I say this as someone who grew up in an Islamic society (as a foreigner). The West tends to get a bit too scared by what they see and hear in the media - the vast majority of Muslims, although probably disagreeing with our eastern conflicts (just like many people in the west, tellingly), care as little about you as you do about them. The ones who don't are obviously a problem, but we are of course already taking fairly strong measures against such rabblerousers

OK fella, give me a table of muslim countries who do not have the death penalty for apostasy versus those that don't- no point in burying our heads in the sand, the Islamic enlightenment is not really on the horizon is it now

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by duality90

I think you're still drawing a broad inference from a particular case. Perhaps certain sectors of Islam believe Apostasy should be punished by death, but the vast majority of Muslims would not wish this to be the case. A large amount of the world's Muslims live in secular societies after all, so cannot impose such a decree. Even if they wanted to, in secular societies the rule of law would typically pre-empt such a possibility. I say this as someone who grew up in an Islamic society (as a foreigner). The West tends to get a bit too scared by what they see and hear in the media - the vast majority of Muslims, although probably disagreeing with our eastern conflicts (just like many people in the west, tellingly), care as little about you as you do about them. The ones who don't are obviously a problem, but we are of course already taking fairly strong measures against such rabblerousers

OK fella, give me a table of muslim countries who do not have the death penalty for apostasy versus those that don't- no point in burying our heads in the sand, the Islamic enlightenment is not really on the horizon is it now

I don't see what relevance domestic policy has to Sharia law or 'honor' killings in the West. I'm not saying I don't think I would prefer to see more liberal policies in Islamic nations (even if such 'hardline' policies only apply to muslims and not to other denominations), only that their practice has no effect upon the West.

reply to post by blueorder


it goes without saying that 'honor killings' are not (at least, under the law of England and Wales or as far as I know under the US Model Penal Code) exempt from criminal prosecution solely on the basis of being an 'honor killing' or facet of one's culture. I don't think that that is (rightly so) even a mitigating circumstance. I hope all such brutliaity is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.