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Islamic 'Honor Violence' Rising in the West: Warning contains disturbing scenes

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posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by CountDrac
reply to post by TheMindWar
 


Islamaphobia?

These are facts.


No they aren't:


Originally posted by Aeons
Factophobia.


Enlighten yourself. Google isn't just there to tell you what you want to hear. Expand your research. You might learn something. Then again, maybe you won't. It's ones own choice. Personally I like expanding my perceptions.




posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by ShamilAbdullah
My. Word wont mater here. But this thred is chalked full of uneducated trash. Its a siple copy and paste thread desighned to get people going and spread hate. What you have faild to do here is educate your self about islam. But i am sure op even this x hick conservitive coboy convert to islams words wont matter to you savvy?


Is this a standard script?

For future reference, you should probably wait until the thread gets going before whipping out the stock responses to sink discussion.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


really so 3000 honor attacks are not a fact? or is it that its not legal to stone women to death in Iran and other countries in the middle east?

Which one is wrong?



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by CountDrac
reply to post by TheMindWar
 


Islamaphobia?

These are facts.


No they aren't:


Originally posted by Aeons
Factophobia.


Enlighten yourself. Google isn't just there to tell you what you want to hear. Expand your research. You might learn something. Then again, maybe you won't. It's ones own choice. Personally I like expanding my perceptions.



I've done the research. I was way less concerned about everyone's current pet dark horse until I actually read the Qu'ran. If you are looking to protect Islam from criticism, you should probably stop telling people to educate themselves on it. It doesn't fare well upon close examination.
edit on 2012/1/4 by Aeons because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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Question asked and question answered, with links. Google is an amazing tool for giving you what you want. I read that in my paper, not on Goggle. You guys going to Google up more anti-Islamic crap? If you are, can you spin it well? We need more hate in the world.


ETA: Aeons, what's your purpose here? Do you really give a # for women in other countries or just more feminist crap that doesn't apply to the 21st century? We conceded. Relax.
edit on 4-1-2012 by intrepid because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
Question asked and question answered, with links. Google is an amazing tool for giving you what you want. I read that in my paper, not on Goggle. You guys going to Google up more anti-Islamic crap? If you are, can you spin it well? We need more hate in the world.


ETA: Aeons, what's your purpose here? Do you really give a # for women in other countries or just more feminist crap that doesn't apply to the 21st century? We conceded. Relax.
edit on 4-1-2012 by intrepid because: (no reason given)


Ah, you are pro-Islam, anti-woman. Good to know. Thank you for defining where you are. That would explain you being okay with erosion of rights in the name of accommodation. Guys who make religious laws that make women worth 1/4 of a man are okay - women who want equality are not okay.

Parameters of debate acknowledged.

Pointing out that all Islamic nations refuse to make laws or properly deal with these killings based by their own admission because they don't want women to screw around is ...yucky feminism. Oh. Well I'm sorry. I'll just wait for the mighty defenders like you to wade in and....oh protect the guys doing it. Okay. Thanks, mighty defender of all that is good and right.

Are you suggesting that reading the Qu'ran and the Hadith is anti-Islamic? That's an interesting take. I happen to agree that anyone with a free mind reading it will be repelled, but it seems contrary to your support of it.

I presume that your promotion of a billion strong religious oppressor applies to other religions as well. Or do you save this only for Islam?
edit on 2012/1/4 by Aeons because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 08:53 PM
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I'd like to understand some things that I've found and would be happy to listen to any reasonable explanation:


As written in the Qur'an,

That if anyone slays a human being – unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth – it shall be as though he had slain all mankind
Please note that "Spreading corruption on the earth" is a defense to murder. What is spreading corruption on the earth?

. A charge that was widely applied against defendants but unfamiliar to some was `sowing corruption on earth` (mofsed-e-filarz). This covered a variety of offenses - "`insulting Islam and the clergy,` `opposing the Islamic Revolution,` `supporting the Pahlavis,` and `undermining Iran's independence` by helping the 1953 coup and giving capitulatory privileges to the imperial powers."
Not surprisingly, immoral acts by a woman or (less commonly, a man) could be counted as corruption spreading. But what do the people believe?

Despite the fact that the Qur’an openly discourages murder against another, many Muslims believe otherwise. A survey by author, Ellen Sheeley revealed that 20% of Jordanites sampled, believe that Islam condones and even supports murder in the name of family honor.
Perhaps it's just a cultural issue?

Savitri Goonesekere qualifies this claim, saying that Islamic leaders in Pakistan use religious justifications for sanctioning honor killings.
Before 2009, the law in Syria allowed for no punishment to the male for a murder committed on a female family member who committed inappropriate sex acts. Now it requires a two year minimum sentence. HOWEVER,

Article 192 states that a judge may opt for reduced punishments (such as short-term imprisonment) if the killing was done with an honorable intent. In addition to this, Article 242 says that a judge may reduce a sentence for murders that were done in rage and caused by an illegal act committed by the victim.
And in Pakistan?

Pakistan: Honor killings are known as karo kari. The practice is supposed to be prosecuted under ordinary killing, but in practice police and prosecutors often ignore it. Often a man must simply claim the killing was for his honor and he will go free. Nilofar Bakhtiar, advisor to Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, stated that in 2003, as many as 1,261 women were killed in honor killings..... In a case study of 150 honor killings, the proceeding judges rejected only eight of claims that the women were killed for honor. The rest were sentenced lightly
All I'm trying to do here is discover some facts about the spread of Honor Killings, and who or what supports their existence?

I still think, given the above, that the leaders of Islam and Islamic nations have more to do to deal with this situation.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952

This covered a variety of offenses - "`insulting Islam and the clergy,` `opposing the Islamic Revolution,` `supporting the Pahlavis,` and `undermining Iran's independence` by helping the 1953 coup and giving capitulatory privileges to the imperial powers."
Not surprisingly, immoral acts by a woman or (less commonly, a man) could be counted as corruption spreading.


Firstly, it is very important that you understand the distinction between Iran and the rest of the Muslim world. The majority of Muslims are Sunni. They practice Islam exactly how the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) lived. Iran's muslims are Shiite. The Split goes all the way back to when the Prophet died and some Muslims innovated and followed Ali (Prophet Mohammad's (pbuh) nephew).

Now, through this innovation you have all kinds of problems...


But what do the people believe?

Despite the fact that the Qur’an openly discourages murder against another, many Muslims believe otherwise. A survey by author, Ellen Sheeley revealed that 20% of Jordanites sampled, believe that Islam condones and even supports murder in the name of family honor.


When you say "people" it is a very broad brush to paint with in the Muslim Community. 20% of Jordanites that believe honor killings are acceptable does not mean that the action actually is anymore than it was acceptable for the Shiite to split from the rest of the Muslim body. So political, religious, cultural affiliation is important information to have to be able to understand what exactly is happening here.


Perhaps it's just a cultural issue? Before 2009, the law in Syria allowed for no punishment to the male for a murder committed on a female family member who committed inappropriate sex acts. Now it requires a two year minimum sentence.


In my opinion it is purely a cultural issue. In Japan ritual suicide is still acceptable amongst individuals in power from what I have seen even though the society as a whole no longer asks for it.


HOWEVER,

Article 192 states that a judge may opt for reduced punishments (such as short-term imprisonment) if the killing was done with an honorable intent. In addition to this, Article 242 says that a judge may reduce a sentence for murders that were done in rage and caused by an illegal act committed by the victim.


Yes, this would make perfect sense. In a collectivist culture when one wrongs another they wrong everyone else that carries the same name, who is the same relation. In the West sleeping around is no big deal. In the Muslim community it is. It speaks to the ability of the parents to parent, it calls the brothers into question, the local Imam's ability to teach is called into question. It is not a simple issue as it is the west because of the sociological make up of Islamic countries.


All I'm trying to do here is discover some facts about the spread of Honor Killings, and who or what supports their existence?

I still think, given the above, that the leaders of Islam and Islamic nations have more to do to deal with this situation.


Are Muslims perfect? No, they are just as human as everyone else. Is all of Christianity to blame because Catholics in the Philippines shun their daughters if they are raped? I argue: No, Christians are not to blame. I do not understand why Muslims do not get the same rational treatment. I am not accusing you of being irrational, just stating that while I do agree with you that some things that happen are wrong; bad things happen across cultural, religious, and ethnic boundaries.
edit on 4-1-2012 by AdAbsurdum because: spelling, syntax



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:04 PM
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Collectivist is exactly right. Collectivist in culture and law.

Western legalislation and culture are individualist, in culture and law.

And I'm not negotiating it.
edit on 2012/1/4 by Aeons because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by Aeons
 


I am unaware of any Islamic country trying to take over the western world and force everyone to convert... So I am completely unaware who is actually asking you to become collectivist. I am assuming you think that somehow Islam is going to conquer your nation and put to the sword everyone that rejects it. There is word for that you know, xenophobia.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by AdAbsurdum
reply to post by Aeons
 


I am unaware of any Islamic country trying to take over the western world and force everyone to convert... So I am completely unaware who is actually asking you to become collectivist. I am assuming you think that somehow Islam is going to conquer your nation and put to the sword everyone that rejects it. There is word for that you know, xenophobia.


Do you think that the Native Indians wish they had put limits on immigration? Insisted on their own laws?

I bet they do.

Shariah on the civil level, International Islamic Law being used for precedent on the Federal level and the supra-federation level. This is a dual introject, and is a form of law replacement which end runs the legislative assembly.

Enforced immigration mandated by supra-national interests is not a natural form of cultural amalgamation.

Is is xenophobia when I don't put up with this nonsense from Christians and whites, or do you just get special status?

I find the expectation of Islamists and their propagandist friends ridiculous. Islam does not tolerate - or shall we tell Western muslims to start paying extra taxes for their belief systems too?

You want in? You change. The accommodations for cultures already exist. Every other culture finds room and we make adjustments. Only Islam pushes for major overahauls, and tries to inject external legal parameters as an aggressive measure. I notice. I say no. That's not xenophobia - that is not being stupid.
edit on 2012/1/4 by Aeons because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by AdAbsurdum
 

Dear AdAbsurdum,

I can't thank you enough for your kind and extensive reponse. I agree with you almost completely (I'd rather be shunned than stoned), and I think you have come to the problem which concerns me the most. Fear.

I don't believe the US is in the Middle East to steal anybody's oil or water or whatever other resources might be available. I think the US saw a mysterious (to us) group of people saying that their religion demands our extinction or subjugation.

Not surprisingly, after attacks on the US we went to war. Our target might have been right or wrong, but we believed we were in the right part of the world to find our attackers. We attacked because we did not know who was going to attack us next, nor when, nor how.

My own uninformed belief is that we could leave the Middle East alone if we saw that honor killings, suicide bombings, persecution of religious minorities, and the deprivation of general human rights came to an end. Or at least if we saw efforts within islam to bring it to an end.

People all over the world can be manipulated, or intimidated to do things that they don't want to do. The US and the Muslim world should work together to stop that intimidation, wherever it is.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by CountDrac
 


Simple Hegelian Dialect subject for the masses so we all fall in line in support of an attack on Iran.

The illuminati or whomever runs global affairs(TPTB) really arent all that illuminated or if you will...not very enlightened...smart...wise etc.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by Aeons
Do you think that the Native Indians wish they had put limits on immigration? Insisted on their own laws?

I bet they do.


Fun fact, you can ask them yourself because they are still around. If you have that conversation you will find that there isn't a consensus now, because there wasn't one originally.


International Islamic Law


There is no such thing. There is what Sunni's believe and then there are those that innovate.


...being used for precedent on the Federal level and the supra-federation level. This is a dual introject, and is a form of law replacement which end runs the legislative assembly.


So, you say Federal, I think America. If we are talking America here, what exact legislature has been passed by the federal apparatus that sets precedent for Sharia Law being forced on the American people?


Enforced immigration mandated by supra-national interests is not a natural form of cultural amalgamation.


Because you do not specifically name the nation you are referring to I can not comment.


Is is xenophobia when I don't put up with this nonsense from Christians and whites, or do you just get special status?


What nonsense and how are you correlating that with Christians and whites? I am aware of Christian, White nations engaging in wars in Muslim countries... You said that you refused to negotiate your individualist philosophies. I pointed out that there is no Muslim nation attempting to conquer the west. If you are afraid of a people, religion, or culture, that is foreign the answer is yes, you are xenophobic.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:38 PM
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You are not addressing what I've said. you are making sect distinctions which do not matter but are a common tactic in these debates. This is a dishonest form of discourse.

I've dealt with this type of debate style of all pretend facts and passive aggressive non-answers while leveling charges of the meanies at people before. I'm never impressed.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by superluminal11
reply to post by CountDrac
 


Simple Hegelian Dialect subject for the masses so we all fall in line in support of an attack on Iran.

The illuminati or whomever runs global affairs(TPTB) really arent all that illuminated or if you will...not very enlightened...smart...wise etc.


Iran is a distraction from the fact that your and my government helped put in an Islamist tide in the Maghreb, and now that they've realized how stupid it is they need people to look away until they can figure out how to spin it as if it is fantastic.

If anything happens to Iran, it'll be a surgical strike at their nuclear capabilities.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:43 PM
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reply to post by Aeons
 


Funny, I wasn't even talking to you and you responded to my post.

After that, I couldn't decipher what it was you were trying to express. If you would like to have an actual conversation with me, feel free to be more clear. Otherwise, go right ahead and declare yourself the victor of whatever the hell is happening right now.



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:46 PM
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Good NEWS source just what they want us to think!... Islam violence rising in the West... Keep spreading the poison your doing a good job working for MSM...



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by AdAbsurdum
 


The post that I responded to was above the noted post....and all the quotes are parsed in response to me. I'll assume that you lost track of the thread and aren't just painting yourself as a victim.

I have a secret for you. We can READ.

The pretense that there are these huge sect differences is a farce when it comes to cultural-religious injection. All the "non-Iran" countries of "innovation" you are talking about have been undoing all modernization over the last decade. The places where this isn't happening it is because one strong man - a king - is somewhat opposing it. For financial reasons.

You aren't educating me. You are lying to me.
edit on 2012/1/4 by Aeons because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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Dear AdAbsurdum,

I stumbled across a little bit of old news that may lay at the root of American fear.

Khomeini strongly supported the spread of Islam throughout the non-Muslim world.

We shall export our revolution to the whole world. Until the cry `There is no God but God` resounds over the whole world, there will be struggle.Not just as a faith but as a state.

Establishing the Islamic state world-wide belong to the great goals of the revolution.` Which he believed would replace both capitalism and communism

... `We have often proclaimed this truth in our domestic and foreign policy, namely that we have set as our goal the world-wide spread of the influence of Islam and the suppression of the rule of the world conquerors ... We wish to cause the corrupt roots of Zionism, capitalism and Communism to wither throughout the world. We wish, as does God almighty, to destroy the systems which are based on these three foundations, and to promote the Islamic order of the Prophet ... in the world of arrogance.`


He certainly makes me think that the US and the world is a target.

With respect,
Charles1952



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