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People Who Say They Are Against Religion Are Going to Hell

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posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by vogon42
 
You might as well be asking if I am "ok" with gays, or if I am "ok" with Muslims because these are things outside the scope of my concern since they do not bear directly on Christian doctrine, which I am concerned about.




posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by vogon42
 
You might as well be asking if I am "ok" with gays, or if I am "ok" with Muslims because these are things outside the scope of my concern since they do not bear directly on Christian doctrine, which I am concerned about.



OK, let me remind you what the question was in reference to. Please try to stay with me on this one.....

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by MzMorbid

In fact, such people believe that their sins have been transferred to another person to take that punishment for them, on an individual bases, meaning a personal salvation, just for them, in this delusional world which they have created for themselves.


Isn't that exactly what your religion does? Didn't that christ dude die for your sins?


Oh no, actually he believes christ is god.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
......
My God IS the only way, meaning Jesus of course.


I thought he was the son of god. Guess I'm wrong. That does bring up some questions. If Jesus is god, and jesus died....then there is no god.

We know christianity does NOT believe in reincarnation.

OOPS....whats that, OK, reincarnation is OK for this ONE instance.

That would be like saying cannibalism is wrong, but then having people symbolically eat someones flesh, and drink their blood.

OOPS, again, its ok for the christains to do this because, uh....well just because it is.
edit on 4-1-2012 by vogon42 because: (no reason given)


See? I'm not pointing anything out in your bible about gay....just asking why reincarnation is OK in this ONE instance, but not any others.

Do you believe this part of the bible?
Do you believe in reincarnation, since it is referred to in the bible?
Are you capable of answering with a simple yes or no, so far you have been AVOIDING the question.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 04:06 PM
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reply to post by vogon42
 


It's a loaded question which presupposes one correct answer and I feel no obligation to answer such questions.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by vogon42
 


It's a loaded question which presupposes one correct answer and I feel no obligation to answer such questions.


Ah.....thats whats called blinded by your faith.

Per the topic - I have nothing against religion, only those who allow themselves to be blinded by it.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by vogon42
 

I'm not blind to anything but there are things I don't want to talk about because I see no use in it unless I can add something to the discussion. Certain things I just have no opinion on and that is just the way it is and there is nothing I can do about it.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Topic - People Who Say They Are Against Religion Are Going to Hell

I'm not against it, sort of on the fence.

Just cant understand why every time I ask a question it is either deflected, or viewed as offensive.

Willing to try to understand, but it makes me feel like I'm talking to a used car salesman.

Pardon my curiosity, I have been working in the computer science field for 20+ years, and prefer to have factual answers to logical questions.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by vogon42
 

Apparently you have been misled by the title which is not especially specific but the actual OP should have clarified it a bit that I am interested in certain people who have avatars that suggest they are Christian while they preach the doctrines of devils.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


So, let me get this straight. If you are a good person, help people whenever you can. Never hurt anyone, never commit crimes, basically live a good honest life. If this person happens to not believe in god, you think he will go to hell.

Well, if that is the case, that would make god arragont, ignorant, basically not a nice being at all. If you are right, then i would never worship a being like that because if its true what you say, he is not good.

Saying that, how many threads a week do we get where people seem to think they know how gods thinks. Its all a load of rubbish!



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by Jay-morris
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


So, let me get this straight. If you are a good person, help people whenever you can. Never hurt anyone, never commit crimes, basically live a good honest life. If this person happens to not believe in god, you think he will go to hell.

Well, if that is the case, that would make god arragont, ignorant, basically not a nice being at all. If you are right, then i would never worship a being like that because if its true what you say, he is not good.

Saying that, how many threads a week do we get where people seem to think they know how gods thinks. Its all a load of rubbish!
I'm guessing you have not read the thread.
What I am suggesting is that people who stand as prophets of Christ and say you don't need to be good nor ever do anything good to be saved and in fact you can kill people all day long everyday and still go to heaven; those people who preach that, will go to hell, while more likely people who behave as you gave example of, would not.
The doubly damned are those who practice wickedness and teach others to do so while making up a bogus rhetoric of fee salvation for unregenerate and unrepentant sinners.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


You need to change your thread title, as its very misleading.



posted on Jan, 6 2012 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by Jay-morris
reply to post by jmdewey60
 

You need to change your thread title, as its very misleading.

That title was a reaction to someone making a great show of renouncing religious people and actually saying he is against people who practice religion while claiming willful sinners are the ones who will be saved.



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 12:08 AM
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Forgive my reply if someone has made a similar post, I haven't bothered to read the hundreds of posts on this thread...

"Religion is worshipping God" = false.

Religion can be a submission to the demands of man, rather than to the demands of God. Be careful not to be obedient to "religion" and think you are being obedient to God, when really you are being obedient to the concept of an organization and the rules that people have laid out; or that you are subconsciously pursuing the approval of men and not of God - being a show-off and ultimately a hypocrite.

Read Matthew 23, as Jesus speaks of this when he talks to the Pharisees.

The apostle Paul writes in Galatians 1:10:
"For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ."

Either way, kudos to you for creating this thread. It has generated some interesting conversation



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by Yellow
 


If that was covered, it does not matter since you are approaching it in a unique way.
I was saying, or trying to say, earlier that I am using the word as found in the New Testament, where the Greek word translated as, religion, means fear of God or worship of God. This is what launched me into making this thread, was the realization of this definition and when someone on this forum goes into a diatribe about how he is against people who practice religion, while this said person who presents himself as the greatest of all prophets who have ever lived, is actually showing his profound ignorance of anything he is talking about and in fact has damned himself to eternal punishment of the worst kind available for attacking God and Jesus and all the saints.
edit on 7-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2012 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Ok, sorry about that misunderstanding.

Either way, let them read what I have written, and let's hope it sparks some comprehension



posted on Jan, 8 2012 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Philodemus
 


I really don't know anything about you, sorry, I can only go by what you post and then I read.
.


If only you placed your opinion on religion with the same agnosticism as you place your opinion on me. You see what I've been trying to say? I'm not the one banishing people to hell here. The burden of proving intellectual "qualification" doesn't lie upon me. It lies on the one passing judgement. And so far, from what I can see, you aren't formally educated in theology. I am. I have been trained in all "Christian" denominations as well as most comparative religions. And after being raised in a strict Baptist home I have, thankfully, become an atheist most days and an agnostic on my off ones. Truly and honestly studying religion, faith, and humanity's need for a god can lead you to only one conclusion. And that is that it is you who are sending their souls to hell not a deity. you feel the need to have this god around to help qualify your life and give it meaning.

As a side note, would you not agree that if we were to find say, the intentions of a Holy God made perfectly clear, would it not be in his commandments to his chosen people? I would like to think they would be there. So, let us look at the very first one.

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God an a jealous God...”

Exodus 20:3-5

Pretty self explanatory, right? So, no need to pick it apart. But it begs the question, “what would the consequences of breaking the first commandment be to those who dare?” Let's have your book answer.

“... for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.”

Exodus 20:5

Now, without putting words in God's mouth I can tell you with some certainty that the fellow is jealous and will punish those who hate him. But ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THE TIME THEY AND THEIR DECENDANTS ROAM THE EARTH. Otherwise, I believe a perfect god would have pointed out in the first of his rules given directly to his children (and the rules used as a template or standard of living by those all the way up to John “The Divine”[name given by the church] all the way to present day Christians.) that the punishment would actually be hell (the absence of god's presence) forever and ever and ever. [Speaking of the Hebrew word for eternity: did you know, that in many instances referring to being “not alive” and somewhere the soul doesn't want to be, that the concept and word used doesn't have the same “forever” meaning as our language. It actually just means a really longtime. It's more like, “I was in the DMV forever today!”] You want a discussion of religion being the way to show love of God? Then following the ten commandments is the very life blood of Judeo-Christianity. There is no hell anywhere to be found in chapter 20. No mention of burning forever in a lake of fire if you don't follow along.
You seem to be convinced that hell existed in the O.T. based on the one book you've read. Fair enough, but can you use the Scripture of the Torah to describe it? Can you describe it using passages from the old testament that mirror it's description in the N.T.? If the “fire” part was added later, and hell being the supposed end-all-be-all as far as deterrents go, then why should anyone give heed to the Bible at all considering it can't get it's story straight? If it's the infallible word of god, what's with all the short-comings? Jesus said,

“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

Matthew 7:3-5


I ask both you AND your holy bible to do the same.



posted on Jan, 8 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


In a few posts you go as far as to cede that Christ's resurrection is tantamount to reincarnation. Odd. Wikipedia defines reincarnation as follows:

“Reincarnation best describes the concept where the soul or spirit, after the death of the body, is believed to return to live in a new human body, or, in some traditions, either as a human being, animal or plant.”

The issue here being that if you knew your doctrine, moreover your own language, you would know that resurrection and reincarnation are indeed NOT the same thing. There would be a SERIOUS problem with the doctrine of Salvation if Christ were reincarnated.

Really, though I digress. The o.p. was really about you condemning false prophets and their beliefs, all in the name of your very ignorant, narrow-minded, and limited interpretation of the Bible. But what you fail to see is that you are contradicting the scripture you are defending. Which puts you in an awkward position. Actually, it puts you in the same company as your self-made enemies.

What's wrong with Christ's sacrifice being a personal salvation? That is the whole point. According to the bible those who are in the book of life are put there by name. That sounds pretty personal to me. He died for all of humanity but the acceptance of that sacrifice is a “personal” decision. Bringing in the conflicting ideas of freewill and predestination...blah, blah, blah.

Now full circle. My original question, which has continued to go unanswered, is thus:

What puts you in the position to pass any judgement considering you are an ignoramus when concerning the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith?

An atheist that knows more about “religion” then a Christian......typical.


Philodemus



posted on Jan, 8 2012 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by Philodemus
 

I'm not the one banishing people to hell here.
I don't have the power to send anyone to hell.
The people I was referring to that are going to hell are the false prophets and that concept is in Revelation where it talks about a lake of fire, the idea that such things as being a false prophet is something very much frowned upon by God.
These people going to hell are for a reason which is they are unrepentant so they are not themselves going to be swayed by any arguments from me or anyone else, so my message for this thread is a warning to those who come on this forum that there are people on this forum who present themselves as prophets for Christ who teach a doctrine of free salvation which allows the believer in such an idea to continue their lives exactly the same way as they have done before and never to concern themselves with things like trying to be good because we can figure that stuff out later after we go to heaven.

No mention of burning forever in a lake of fire if you don't follow along.
You seem to be convinced that hell existed in the O.T. based on the one book you've read.
I don't know what you are talking about here, about a one book I read. As for the O.T., I don't see any compelling reason to get my thoughts into conformity with it.

Really, though I digress. The o.p. was really about you condemning false prophets and their beliefs, all in the name of your very ignorant, narrow-minded, and limited interpretation of the Bible.
I'm not talking about some esoteric debatable bit of obscure church doctrine. I'm talking about people who promote evil and condone theft and murder.

What's wrong with Christ's sacrifice being a personal salvation?
It becomes wrong when you turn it into meaning you just got handed a free, non-revocable guaranteed ticket to heaven no matter how much you willfully sin through the rest of your life.

What puts you in the position to pass any judgement considering you are an ignoramus when concerning the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith?

An atheist that knows more about “religion” then a Christian......typical.
Being a human being who can think, that's what puts me in a position to pass judgment.
edit on 8-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2012 @ 04:21 PM
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Applause for using the quote button. However, you seemed to skirt all of my translational and scriptural questions and headed straight for the more personal and even hypothetical ones.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Philodemus
 

I'm not talking about some esoteric debatable bit of obscure church doctrine. I'm talking about people who promote evil and condone theft and murder.



That would have been a help piece of info for your ORIGINAL POST, ya pot stirrer.


Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Philodemus
 


These people going to hell are for a reason which is they are unrepentant so they are not themselves going to be swayed by any arguments from me or anyone else, so my message for this thread is a warning to those who come on this forum that there are people on this forum who present themselves as prophets for Christ who teach a doctrine of free salvation which allows the believer in such an idea to continue their lives exactly the same way as they have done before and never to concern themselves with things like trying to be good because we can figure that stuff out later after we go to heaven.



Salvation, as I understand it IS free. The doctrine you are referring to is more of a completely unconditional salvation. The depth of your lexicon is important to give credibility.


Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Chamberf=6
 

What is your definition of hell?

Whatever the opposite of Heaven is, probably somewhere with no sky, since it would be completely underground, so kind of boring with no sun or way to tell the passage of time.


Wrong. Hell is the complete absence of the presence of God. Do you think Christ robed himself in human flesh and died on the cross to be risen again just to save mankind from boredom? Really? Not enough to strong arm the wicked....boredom.

No, from personal experience from when I died and went to hell, that was what it was like and not what I expected, in fact I did not believe in hell up to then.


This is how you try to gain credibility? By telling us of your personal experience in “hell”. You do realize how many tenets of Dispensationalism you are smashing to bits with this? You can't do that, and not expect REAL trained theologians not to call your falsehoods out. No man. NO MAN. Has ever returned from hell. Name one from the Scripture. Not even Christ. Do you know where Christ went for the three days he was in the tomb? Abraham's bosom. Which would be where Catholics devised their ideals of purgatory, just so you know. Christ went to Abe's boob and gathered up all those saint who died during the time of the old covenant and took them to heaven. They were previously unable to do so without Christ's FINAL sacrifice.....NEXT!


Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by IblisLucifer
 

But maybe your hell might be my heaven

I doubt it but I would not completely rule it out.


Are you positive of anything? With much learning comes sureness of foot, lad.


Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by AllUrChips
 

Considering the greek translation for "grave" is "Hell", yes, I would say we are ALL going to hell, See ya there
That is likely true enough but I think the idea is to have Jesus come and rescue us from that place, or at least send an angel to bring us up.


What? Rescue us from what? We're dead......

quote]Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
 

Religion is brainwashing the fearful...

.... so it was a spur of the moment thing to start this thread and didn't even think about for more than a few seconds.


And that's the real problem here. You have to understand that when you post on this site you are in the company of REAL scholars. Many an idiot? Sure. But laced within the fibres of morondom are REAL-LIFE scholars who have dedicated decades of their lives to studying anything on which you could possibly post. Including Christian Apologetics. So, you need to approach everything you say with tact and humility and respect for those who know more, by carefully and thoughtfully putting your post together.


edit on 8-1-2012 by Philodemus because: just getting the codes right.



posted on Jan, 8 2012 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by angus1745
 

People against religion arent going to hell. Fools like yourself just think we are.

If you don't believe in hell then you are in luck as far as this thread goes.
I get your point about Bible Bashers, not sure but I think you mean Bible thumpers, but I will admit that I do not like watch religion TV. I know I used to 26 years ago but it might have been because I did not have cable and that was all there was on Sunday morning.
I think Christianity in general has been a good influence over the last couple hundred years but I think there is a serious problem with a big segment of it right now, and so the posting I do which is to counter the hate mongering pro-war variety which also passes itself off in a lot of cases as being against "religion" or so they say but they sit there and preach end of the world scenarios that are beyond belief in being highly convoluted and fanciful with lots and lots of blood.


Which part has been a good influence out of curiosity? How was the dark-ages? That was all religion? How about Hitler? He was a Christian. I just hope you know when you say something like Christianity has been a good influence over the past couple hundred years your speaking from a different reality then the rest of us live in.


Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Sorry to disappoint you friend...You are wrong. People who judge other people as if they must meet their own standards instead of God's standards are certainly going to hell because as Jesus said and I believe all of Christianity is behind the man there are only 2 commandments. Love God with all your heart and your brother as yourself. If you are trashing your fellow mans beliefs for no reason other than to prove superiority or provide some edification on your part or of your perspective that is not love. That's being judgemental and making a inaccurate and misinformed judgement based on your own limited perspective belief and fears. There is only 1 sin that may not be forgiven. A sin against the spirit.


I am an atheist but if I weren't this is who I'd hope I'd be. Re-read this qoute. This person truely understands the New Covenant. The way to admonish your brothers is not down the road you walk.


And that's as far as I can go. To stomach another page is unthinkable and I only made it to three. Son, you really need to go to school. Find a college in your area that offers a religious course. I'm sure there are some churches near by that offer workshops and sunday school classes. Go. Learn from people who have truely studied and didn't just have your attitude.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Philodemus
 


I do "study up" and have a book that is all about the Old Testament concept of afterlife, so it is not from lack of effort but maybe a lack of information available to the general public other than Wikipedia.


It's men like you that make me reject the malignancy you preach. I stand with NewConvenant by signing off from this discussion and I do not think anyone who has read the entirety of your trolling thread would blame me.



posted on Jan, 8 2012 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by Philodemus
 

. . . you seemed to skirt all of my translational and scriptural questions and headed straight for the more personal and even hypothetical ones.

I took it as rhetoric.
If you have an actual question please phrase it as a clear, answerable question and I would be happy to answer any questions.



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