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Originally posted by Max_TO
reply to post by miniatus
Your Baptists friend seems to prove my point.
I feel that the flip side to all this is the misconception regarding god's love.
Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by HillbillyHippie1
Anyone can tell this concept is crap. If this is a concept for control, why the hell isn't it working? Things seem pretty out of control to me.edit on 2-1-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)
Point of all this is this. If hell doesn't exist, why love? And that doesn't mean you should be forced to love out of fear. That is to say, if it isn't better than something else, why put the effort forward TO love?
Punishment doesn't happen in heaven. If you needed to be punished in heaven, heaven would not be perfect.
And there isn't anything in between. That wouldn't make much sense. Because if it did, then this life pretty much is totally worthless.
I repeat. If all I'm going to get for not loving is a few hundred years of whipping, why love?
It is difficult to forgive and not only that, but love, an enemy. I don't know. Maybe you haven't had many enemies in your life. I have. And it's hard. And if I'm not going to go to hell for not loving them, why do so?
Hell doesn't exist... And heaven is "the afterlife"... which all souls return to.
Because life, and afterlife IS perfect... there must be punishment within said "afterlife" You reap what you sow...
In between what? You believe "hell" is between heaven and the physical? Life would be worthless if there was no afterlife... pointless actually. Though that is not the case.
Well that depends... If you are christian then you must love because your "lord" demands it... though it is your choice of course.
You forgive your enemies and love them because hatred weighs heavy on your soul... It does not hurt them, but it does hurt you.
And again, your lord commands you love them... because like it or not they are your brothers and sisters, who are also a part of God.
Love thy neighbour because in doing so you also love God.
And btw, you're not going to hell... Its nothing but a fear tactic used for conversion.
Perfection implies a conclusion when you enter the transition between out and in. Allow me to explain in architectural terms, as I am training to be one. When we say a building is "perfect' it means that it needs no alterations. That it is right as it is. If there is a need to change something once you enter it, it is inherently not perfect.
1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Similarly, if there is a need to punish as you enter heaven, there is an inherent imperfection to heaven.
And to conclude, if life was perfect, why leave? Why have a heaven? Why die?
I disagree. If there was no heaven, and indeed if the atheists are right, there is still purpose. I was an atheist once. I had no problem with the view that death meant the end. I still had purpose. The fact that I now call myself Christian hasn't changed that view much.
A man is the totality of his thoughts and memories, and passing those on a generation further becomes the purpose. Knowing not what the end of the species is means one should keep existing to find out. Who knows what wonders and changes the universe shall have? Perhaps a generation will come that shall unlock time's mysteries, and reinvent reality.
I believe hell is something else entirely. As is heaven. I do not expect heaven to be like reality. I don't expect virgins and gardens. I doubt sex will even exist in heaven.
45Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Because it is right. Because seeing an enemy who is wrong become a friend that is right is a priceless event in a life that creates an unbreakable bond. Friends born in fire are the strongest friends.
I could destroy a person's entire life. To some extent I have to the few that have screwed with me. No I am not happy I did those things as a Christian But the act of destroying them brings a hard-to-hide grin to the face. There have been times where hatred fueled progress. Where hatred became the driving force to outdo and outperform the hated. Hatred is very much so a force for good when used correctly.
Unless I make the choice that they ought to burn in hell for their sins and be taken from God's essence entirely. I CAN make that choice. I choose not to. Or perhaps, I have yet to find someone evil enough to condemn them to such.
And it is undeniable that some small piece of me disagrees with that sometimes.
Like I said. Sometimes, hate can be used for good. There have been times where hatred drove me to destroy a person as they are, and force them to reinvent them. I destroyed their soul through hatred and showing them their flaws, their evils, and their sins.. And from that, was born a new one. Same face. But one cannot say the same person; Perhaps not even the same soul.
You say this. And yet what legitimacy do you have.
We all enter into life perfect... Through our experiences we become imperfect.
This is why Jesus taught us to be like children... They are innocent, and do not hate... Children litterally "can not" understand the concept of hate until later in life...
Proverb 20:11 — Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.
Incorrect... God is the only judge... And your punishment/reward will be perfect according to what you sowed in life...
That question is not for me my friend... But i know life is perfect. We are here for a set time, and death is the only thing that is 100% for everyone across the board.
There is an afterlife... some call it heaven. If you chose to do so i have no issue with it.
Live a selfish life, and you will have your reward already. The selfless builds upon their treasure in "heaven"... and it is more valuble then all things in the physical.
I disagree... but you are free to believe that hatred can be used for Good. I will have no part in such beliefs... Love will always rule hatred.
As you should know you are always free to judge who you want... though it is not your place.
You did not destroy their soul... that is not something that any man has the power to do...
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Perhaps you showed this person the light... or made them a better person. Though using hatred as a means for Good is not something i would recommend... Love destroys hate... Hate can not destroy hate.
Lets just say.... I just know. Hell is nothing but a fear tactic... it wasn't in original scripture.
Now im not saying there isn't a place for the wicked... But there is no place of eternal fire and damnation that some christians throw at you.
Originally posted by miniatus
But How? We enter into life as nothing. We need parents. We cannot even poop without problems. We cannot be perfect. For we change.
Spiritually perfect? Again, I am not sure. Our souls are clean perhaps. But I believe in original sin, because it makes sense. If there wasn't original sin, man would not create religion to rid himself of it.
Proverb 20:11 — Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.
I think it is indeed directed at the innocence of children. But we start as children to be brought up spiritually to adults. If you remain a child always, then what is gained? Always retain innocence, but life is inherently against innocence. And sins done many times loose the right to call it youthful innocence.
I do remember hatred as a child. One of my earliest memories is when I was either 4 or 5. I remember feeling some level of hatred at things relevant in my life.
But it never says that will end, in either case. Furthermore, he does judge you, but it is heavily implied that the judgement of believers is at a different scale to the nonbelievers. On the day of judgement, when Christ divides the sheep and the goats, where are the nonbelievers?
There is clearly mentioned a hell.
are you certain?
What of Enoch? What of Elijah? Supposedly they return on the last day, only to be the first to resurrection. But not everyone in the bible has died whom was born a man.
It also says heaven is to be destroyed. Because even now, heaven is not perfect. How could it be? Satan rebelled in it.
Ever wonder why Seraph in the court of God cover their faces? Seems to me like they dare not even look at the place where Satan sinned.
Yes. But what, they just go ahead and enjoy a bland heaven? It makes it quite clear, such as with the master of Lazarus, that they go into the deep pit.
Oh but on the contrary it is clear that God gives this power of his to some. It is his discretion to do so. Many times those who are oppressed. God pours out himself very often:
Why say this unless God told you they are a fool?
Love destroys hate when there is a soft heart. And indeed, love in actions can create a fleshy heart. But there is a place for hate, and it has a place for good. Hatred caused God to kick Adam and Eve out of the garden. Anger of them, hatred of their sins. Indeed, hatred of sins is what motivates the self to righteousness.
That which has Christ cannot surely die or go into hell, for it has the spirit of Christ, and Christ could not stay in hell after death.
That, too, is proof of Hell. Christ went somewhere in death. And it was not heaven. It is clearly stated that he ascended from some place down low.
Then why does Jesus save?
Originally posted by IamCorrect
Originally posted by miniatus
His name is John Spong. He's Episcopalian, not Catholic.
Originally posted by intelligenthoodlum33
Regardless of what you call him, his words ring true. It takes guts to step out of the box and speak the truth. This dude is alright with me.
Everything changes, including the spirit of man....
You contradict yourself if you believe we are born into sin... if that is the case your soul can't very well be clean can it....
God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21
Original sin is your own sins from previous lives... Thus the reason some are born with illness and deformity.
The story of Adam and even is exactly that... a story.
A child can not be known by his doings unless he was taught before his "doings"... As you said, thats why we have parents... There are "bad" children of course, but whos fault is it that they're bad? They certainly were not born that way...
Look... 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven
You learned to hate... that emotion did not come with being born...
Why would it end? Non-believers are judged according to their deeds... At death, everyone will believe...because they will be shown the truth.... but they will still be judged none the less... regardless of their beliefs or lack there of.
Look up the word Gehenna...
On "life being perfect"
What about them? Not everyone that has died in the past has actually died either... their spirits live on...
Satan represents materialism.... the dude with the pitchfork doesn't exist....
yes thats nice... I do not believe in the fairytales within the bible.... Satan is materialism... And if there is actually a spirit or entity "satan".... I believe he is just doing his job... that is tempting man to turn from God... The war in heaven was a lie... it never happened. An angel CAN NOT turn against his creator... it makes no sence... its like an ant trying to over run your house.
again just a story... im guessing you believe the afterlife to be a party or something along those lines... Its a transitional place where we prepare for our next incarnation if its necessary.... IF you haven't learned what you were sent to learn.... you will return to the physical realm for more learning.
I disagree no man has power to destroy the soul... Prove your words with scripture please...
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
And who among us is righteous?
Yes he did, he went to "the afterlife"... like we all do. And how does one "ascend" from below?
Because his words are pure truth... he gives you proof of the afterlife if you chose to believe his life was true...
With that knowledge you are saved from physical death... but in fact we are all saved from physical death, that has never changed... it is a gift from God... And he sent his son to prove it to humanity...
Though again... once you get to the afterlife... you must deal with the deeds of your life