Gods Will and the Mustard Seed (Jesus philosophy)

reply to post by sacgamer25


sacgamer25 this is for you, simply to clarify my position...

I respect your opinion aside from that last statement... which i will get to.

I understand you "believe" in all three, don't get me wrong i also believe in The father, the son, and the spirit...

Though my issue is this... The Father is always assigned to the highest position within the bible, and other scripture you may not be familiar with... Jesus always refers to his father as greater then himself... That in itself destroys the idea of the trinity...

The son, is the example God sent to the physical realm, to show us there IS in fact an afterlife... and his example shows the best way to make his father proud of our life... THIS, is how he "saves"... not just through belief... or faith in him. The issue with belief and faith is this... IF you believe something you follow it... Most so called "christians" do not follow his words, and many barely know his words at all... Some even have the nerve to try to counter his words with paul and other authors of the bible... this is simply incorrect... You can not argue against a man who had no faults... especially with his "so called" followers words, which don't always line up with what he taught anyways...

The spirit is not to be worshipped in my opinion... its something that is in every living creature... Yes its a part of God, but only a part of the whole... as Jesus is only a part of the whole... so are you, and so am i and everything else in creation....

Now for this...

It is my opinion that you have listened to many false teachers who claim that they are teaching with the authority of Christ.

Your opinion is wrong my friend... I do not listen to any man's words... i've never been taught anything by any man i've studied within scripture aside from one person... And his true colours started to shine through after i questioned his beliefs... lets say i have a talent for bringing out the worst in people when they have no where else to turn, and they see there is clearly an error within their beliefs. They might deny that error, but it sticks in the back of their head and eventually it will cause them to question the issue themselves.

I study on my own, and i do not stick exclusively to the bible... I study all beliefs, and make my own opinions of them... and unlike most (likely yourself included)... i have NO ONE telling me what is correct and what is not...

This is why i know Truth

My beliefs come from a number of different religions... and the only "false teachers" i listen to are some of the people i debate with on these forums. That of course is the point of the debate...

And i am rarely incorrect about what i've studied...

I make people question their beliefs by pointing out the flaws within them. And everyone should alwjays question their beliefs... In doing so, one will eventually find truth...

Careful who you judge my friend... especially when you do not know who you're speaking to.

And by the way, i appreciate your issue with the KJV... but i'll stick with what i like. Thanks though.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Now for this...

It is my opinion that you have listened to many false teachers who claim that they are teaching with the authority of Christ.

Careful who you judge my friend... especially when you do not know who you're speaking to.

And by the way, i appreciate your issue with the KJV... but i'll stick with what i like. Thanks though.

edit on 3-1-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Sharing my opinion was not intended as judgment in anyway. From what I have read of your posts, you have rejected some of the books or letters in the bible as being unauthentic. The reason you give typically sounds like you are interpreting the scripture in much the same way as the Christian Churches do. And you point out that these interpretations contradict Christ. And you are correct the churches interpretation of scripture often does contradict Christ. But the correct interpretation does not.

Personally I can find no verse in the bible that contradicts Christ. Unless you are referring to the Old Testament, which I consider to be a perfect compliment and development of man on his spiritual journey. And because I believe that the Old Testament is a necessary component to a full understanding of God and Jesus, I accept it in its entirety.

If followers of Christ can’t claim that all scripture is the inspired word of God that has been protected by God, then how can we imagine that anyone will believe anything in the bible? I believe followers of Christ are the only ones who claim this. Every other religion claims that every word in the book is divine. I have never found a follower of Mohammad, Buddha, or Hinduism make the claim that the deity they follow has not preserved the message in the book they follow.

So how can anyone believe in a God that didn’t preserve his message so that we may find an easy path to understand him? Me personally I believe in a loving God that indeed did preserve his perfect word, and provide a perfect path to him.

As for my views, who exactly do you think is telling me what I believe? I have essentially proven through scripture that no church that I am aware of is teaching the true message. If I was receiving my understanding from a church I most certainly would give credit to that church. But since my inspiration comes from the Holy Spirit I can only credit God with my understanding of scripture. Which is the way Christ promised one would learn the meaning of scripture.

Again if you believe that I was judging you in any way I apologize. I hold no judgment over anyone. I do not know the fate of any man. I am only assured of my salvation.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Just because there are errors within the bible does not mean God did not preserve his message...

He sent his son, within his words is Gods message, and there alone will you find it preserved...

All other scripture within the book falls short... they only reiterate what has already been said by him...

IF you believe there is no verse within the bible that contradicts Christ, you arn't looking hard enough...

IF you believe the one true God is the Father of Jesus whom he spoke of... listen to his sons words and no other... Other mens words are stumbling blocks... and eventually you will fall.

As for my views, who exactly do you think is telling me what I believe? I have essentially proven through scripture that no church that I am aware of is teaching the true message. If I was receiving my understanding from a church I most certainly would give credit to that church. But since my inspiration comes from the Holy Spirit I can only credit God with my understanding of scripture. Which is the way Christ promised one would learn the meaning of scripture.

I do not know who is telling you... though who am i to say you are a liar either. If you believe "the spirit" guides your words then perhaps it is...

I do not credit the spirit with what i've been shown... I give God all of the glory because i am not worthy of it... And all credit of all things within my life also goes to him and no other... not the spirit, not Jesus...

His father...God whom there is no equal...

I AM NOTHNG without God... This i know...

Either way feel free to think of me as you will... My words can be harsh at times, but they have a purpose...

People Fight for Jesus every day... I do not, because his words stand throughout time...

God needs a warrior too... and i am he. His sons words are my weapon and love is my shield... And they cut deep... because they are truth...

I appreciate your candor... know that i have nothing against you... or any man regardless of how or what they might think of me... judgement is not my place.

Though remember when dealing with me, i point in one direction... That is the words of Jesus... And it is impossible for me to argue with those that also understand him... Its those that do not understand that i target...

So if you understand him as you say... then why preach anything but his words?

Everything that you need is there....

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I understand you "believe" in all three, don't get me wrong i also believe in The father, the son, and the spirit...

Though my issue is this... The Father is always assigned to the highest position within the bible, and other scripture you may not be familiar with... Jesus always refers to his father as greater then himself... That in itself destroys the idea of the trinity...

There is a wonderful term which may help: Ordered Equality.

The Father is the head of the Son-- each equal, but ordered. The Spirit is sent by (proceeds from) the Father (and, in most of the West, also from the Son).

The concept also yanks the rug out from under the misogynist interpretation of Paul's mention that the man is the head of the wife in marriage. Paul begins that discourse with The Father is head of the Son; the Son, heads man, and the man heads the wife.

If the Father and the Son are equal, and if the husband and the wife are equal, headship is not inequality but only order. It still leaves the misogynists with a "my way or the highway" argument... except that such discord is not seen in the relations of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Instead, it is a perfect union:

Marriage: Two becoming one.
Holy Trinity: Three Persons, One God.

In each case, these are to be understood that the other person/Person is equal and of the same essence.

I study on my own, and i do not stick exclusively to the bible... I study all beliefs, and make my own opinions of them... and unlike most (likely yourself included)... i have NO ONE telling me what is correct and what is not...

This is why i know Truth

Careful!

Very much related to the above-- relationship is essential-- and totalitarian authority is a tyrant-- even if it is only oneself.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

If it is easier for you to see the Father, Son and Spirit as completely separate that is acceptable

I did not say that....

they are all a part of God... seperation is an illusion produced by God.

They are not equal to God, because God is all... and nothing in heaven or earth can compare to him.

Which is called "modalism" -- that God manifests Himself, sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Holy Spirit-- One God-- three modes of manifestation.

From scripture that is typically refuted by the Gospel account of Jesus being Baptized, the Father's voice declaring Him to be His Son, and the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus-- all three Persons simultaneously present and active as regards one Another.

reply to post by Frira


The part about marriage and ordered equality I love that. I think that nasty word submission always gets confusing for both husband and wife. And to be honest it is all the husbands fault. We expect a biblical wife without being a biblical husband.

If the husband truly acted as a servant to his wife the way Christ served the Church, then I’m sure the wife would be more than happy to submit to her servant. In this way there would be ordered equality.

reply to post by Frira

There is a wonderful term which may help: Ordered Equality.

Yes i understand trinitarian beliefs... i just don't agree with them.

Careful!

Very much related to the above-- relationship is essential-- and totalitarian authority is a tyrant-- even if it is only oneself.

I agree, relationship is essential... but totalitarian authority implies dictatorship... my authority is my own, and i expect no one to listen... or even read what i say for that matter...

Which is called "modalism" -- that God manifests Himself, sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Holy Spirit-- One God-- three modes of manifestation.

This also implies that Jesus was God...

The term Sabellianism or "modalism" comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the third century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Christian doctrine that Jesus was fully God.

Jesus was not God... I said he was a part of God... same as you and i are a part of him...

Originally posted by Akragon


Jesus was not God... I said he was a part of God... same as you and i are a part of him...

Which part of God is He? And what part of God are we?

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon


Jesus was not God... I said he was a part of God... same as you and i are a part of him...

Which part of God is He? And what part of God are we?

And why would we allow this to seperate us?

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon


Jesus was not God... I said he was a part of God... same as you and i are a part of him...

Which part of God is He? And what part of God are we?

The part that was sent to us... to show the path of God. The son of the father of Creation... Some call him the first born... It doesn't matter what you call him, only that one recognises his purpose.

We are also children of God... or parts of the whole. And every part is as important as the next...

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon


Jesus was not God... I said he was a part of God... same as you and i are a part of him...

Which part of God is He? And what part of God are we?

And why would we allow this to seperate us?

Jesus does not seperate us... he unites us... Misunderstanding his message will seperate... Though i've found that not everyone is meant to understand.

In reality seperation is an illusion... You can not seperate yourself from what you are...

Realization of this "unity" with God is the awakening...

And love is what will grant that realization...

reply to post by Akragon


I think I understand what you say and I am going to give you a some verses. I have not complete decided one way or another but I base a lot of my interpretation on what I see in my six year old.

Colossians 1 24:27 24 I am glad when I suffer for you in my body, for I am participating in the sufferings of Christ that continue for his body, the church. 25 God has given me the responsibility of serving his church by proclaiming his entire message to you. 26 This message was kept secret for centuries and generations past, but now it has been revealed to God’s people. 27 For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John15 1-8 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

I have always had this thought that God lives in us. The church teaches that God only lives in believers of Christ. I believe that everyone is born with a seed that seed being the Word of God written on their hearts. Since I believe that Christ is the word so it is his spirit that is that word on our hearts. What I believe Christ is saying is he always remains in us. It is us that choose not to remain in him when we don’t follow his commands.

This is the secret that was hidden, that Christ is in all of us since birth. If we remain in him and do his works at some point he will baptize us himself. So the good news can be summed up by simply saying Christ lives in you and always has.

What is your opinion?

reply to post by sacgamer25

I think I understand what you say and I am going to give you a some verses. I have not complete decided one way or another but I base a lot of my interpretation on what I see in my six year old

That is interesting actually... Sounds to me like you're basing your decision on love... that is a great place to start...

Before i get into this reply i'd just like to say i've seen everyone of these verses so many times i can't count... honestly Christians always come up with the exact same arguements everytime i get into this debate, and the explanations they give hold no water... and essentually call Jesus a liar... but if that is your intent feel free.

Let me explain...

Jesus said...
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

His followers asked him many questions, even about the end of the world... and he answered the questions they asked 100%... It is well known Jesus did not lie...

Omission would be a lie... IF he was in fact "God in the flesh" he would have said it, or he was guilty of lying by omission... its as simple as that. That is the first indicator that he was Not God... simply put, he never claimed to be God.

Now for your scripture quotes...

Colossians 1 24:27 24 (Paul = Automatically given no consideration)

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This is John narrating his book... Jesus did not say anything like that about himself... In truth he was "from the father, full of grace and truth"... God became flesh is just wrong... Again he would have said something along those lines if that were true... he was a part of God... not God in the flesh... Gods son! That he claimed himself, and since he did not lie... that is truth.

John15 1-8 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples

This is truth... He IS the true vine... but the vine that leads to God... He shows the path... and if you walk that path you will bare much fruit...

I have always had this thought that God lives in us.

Excellent!!

Keep that in mind my friend...

The church teaches that God only lives in believers of Christ. I believe that everyone is born with a seed that seed being the Word of God written on their hearts. Since I believe that Christ is the word so it is his spirit that is that word on our hearts. What I believe Christ is saying is he always remains in us. It is us that choose not to remain in him when we don’t follow his commands.

Again that is excellent! Remember where Jesus said the "temple" was? Its not any church on this planet... though it seems you understand that.... I would recommend not chastising every religion like that thread you have but its your life my friend... do with it as you will

This is the secret that was hidden, that Christ is in all of us since birth. If we remain in him and do his works at some point he will baptize us himself. So the good news can be summed up by simply saying Christ lives in you and always has.

That is correct, but its not a secret... the words have always been there but the churches of this world will never teach such things... Its only since the introduction of the internet that the churches lost their authority on scripture... Now everyone can see the truth without it being hidden by so called "authorities" on the subject.

Did you know Jesus denied being God?

Its one passage most Christians that claim him to be God hate to see... but its there.

Though recently i have given up this fight... I believe if you choose to call him God, there is no problem in the true Gods eyes... but i could be wrong... He said there is only ONE God... NOT three in one...

God has no equal in heaven and earth... ONE GOD

But you are free to believe whatever you like...

Mark 12:29
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

reply to post by Akragon


But the secret has been hidden, and it was Christ himself that hid it. For seeing they did not see, for hearing they did not hear. If everyone knew the truth we would have already seen the end of the age.

And again I don't think it matters exactly how one understands the relationship of the three. They only need to believe in all three. They do need to understand that the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate gifts from God.

reply to post by sacgamer25

But the secret has been hidden, and it was Christ himself that hid it. For seeing they did not see, for hearing they did not hear. If everyone knew the truth we would have already seen the end of the age.

This has been going on since he lived... his own followers didn't understand him...

Since the bible has been in mass production for the world... it has not been hidden...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

But the secret has been hidden, and it was Christ himself that hid it. For seeing they did not see, for hearing they did not hear. If everyone knew the truth we would have already seen the end of the age.

This has been going on since he lived... his own followers didn't understand him...

Since the bible has been in mass production for the world... it has not been hidden...

If it has been their and not been understood, and it has. Then it is Satan that has given us false interpretations to follow. Satan can only do what he is allowed to do. Thus making it God's will that this be hidden. The bible is the remnant of God's church. And I still don’t think Paul disagrees with this. I think he is misunderstood, and there is a purpose to misunderstanding him. To me all of Paul’s letters are written as sort of Parables.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Satan?

You believe that some mystical evil force... forces people to misinterpret the bible?

Does he force people to do bad things as well?

reply to post by Akragon


He doesn't force anything, he cannot take away your ability to choose, he can only put an idea in your head. This is why we are told to be weary of spirits and always test what they say. If they agree with Christ you are being led by the Holy Spirit. If the message contradicts Christ you are being led by a different spirit.

The problem is the bible was not available for anything more than church interpretation for so long most people have accepted the authority of the church over the authority of Christ and the Holy Spirit. They have accepted that the church must be better at interpretation than they are.

reply to post by sacgamer25


I have no comment on that... i do not deny demons and other such entities exist... only that they have no power over me...

reply to post by Akragon

Yes that is true. If you know what Christ teaches and you stay in him, than you cannot be fooled by them.