Gods Will and the Mustard Seed (Jesus philosophy)

Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Nope, their faith in God is what saved them before the Son of Man.

So if people in the OT could save themselves from eternal punishment for their faith in God, then the whole point of God sending himself down to Earth to kill himself, to save us from a rule he implemented in the first place was.......?

edit on 3-1-2012 by novastrike81 because: (no reason given)

I keep bringing this up repeatedly ... to which no doubt they will come up with an "explanation" which leaves you at the end with even more questions than answers.

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi

Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Nope, their faith in God is what saved them before the Son of Man.

So if people in the OT could save themselves from eternal punishment for their faith in God, then the whole point of God sending himself down to Earth to kill himself, to save us from a rule he implemented in the first place was.......?

edit on 3-1-2012 by novastrike81 because: (no reason given)

I keep bringing this up repeatedly ... to which no doubt they will come up with an "explanation" which leaves you at the end with even more questions than answers.

No one prior to Jesus saved themselves. The bible mentions very few righteous individuals.

Even Moses and Aaron were not allowed to enter the rest promised to them. Because having known God they still disobeyed. You see the rest that was being offered was the Sabbath rest. The Sabbath rest, weekly rest, is a shadow of the true rest promised to all who accept Christ Jesus. Which is the rest promised when we enter the Kingdome of Heaven? If Moses and Aaron were not allowed to enter this rest it would appear that Enoch and Elijah are the only 2 that may have entered that rest prior to Christ death on the cross.

Jesus came to forgive the sins of all men past, present and future. He was the one that was, is, and is to come. If not for the sacrifice of Christ and the forgiveness of sins none would be worthy. But since Christ is our high priest able to enter the Heavenly temple he can indeed atone for our sins once for all.

As far as who is forgiven and enters this rest on the final judgment, I am not the judge so I will leave that up to Son, the one who God has appointed judge.


The bible is a perfect story written by the perfect author. The complete story is the complete story of everyone’s life.

Adam and Eve - We are all born knowing good from bad. We all decide at some point to fall away by doing bad, sin.

Moses to Christ – We all live by the 10 commandments, even Atheist agree with the moral code set forth by the 10 commandments. We all break the law and in doing so we all become spiritually dead. Because of this we all learn to fear God.

From Christ to born again – This you see is where you have a choice. You can continue to live in fear, which is what the law teaches. You can reject God thus making yourself God which is done out of rebellion, or you can choose to accept God back into your heart, the place he always wanted to be.

If you choose to live by the law you are judged by the law, if you reject God than he rejects you. If you accept God back into your heart than the Holy Spirit will live in you and you will be a changed person, with the assurance of the resurrection and heaven.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

IF you chose to teach the message of Jesus... Why do you preach outside of his words?

I expected you here. And I still defend Paul as being inspired by the Holy Spirit. I have never asked so I think I will. What are the specifics behind why you choose not to believe in the writings from Paul? What is in the writings that you feel don’t agree with Christ’s message?

There are several that i don't agree with...

specifically to name at least one...

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

This proclaimation makes paul a liar... and i will never trust a liar

mathew 1:23
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."

So I imagine you don't agree with Mathew either? Quite litteraly this passage answers all questions about who Jesus was. He was however 100% man subject to all the same temptations we were. He was showing us how with the Holy Spirit we could overcome and become like him. So being 100% man he was subjected to the authority of the father, just as the Holy Spirit, the very Spirit of God is subject to the authority of the father.

To me this as much as I try to understand the trinity. I look at it as sort of a family that makes up the variables of one love. In earthly terms Father, Mother, and Son make up the different variables of love. Each part is equally necessary for us to understand love but are all part of one. I believe the trinity is best understood this way. They are all one equally necessary to form the understanding of love. The Son and the Holy Spirit are subject to the father but are equally part of the love that makes up the father. In this way they are subject to the father and one with the father.

edit on 3-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

no i do not disagree with that statement...

But God has always been "with us"... he just sent us his son as an example to live by. To prove there is ONE true God... and an afterlife...

and he is not the crazy tyrant that you can read about in the OT...

Being one with the father doesn't mean equality by the way...

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

If you choose to live by the law you are judged by the law, if you reject God than he rejects you. If you accept God back into your heart than the Holy Spirit will live in you and you will be a changed person, with the assurance of the resurrection and heaven.

I do not have to accept God "back". I already believe in Him. It's gonna be a bit hard though that the "Holy Spirit" shall live in me, seeing as he is the Archangel Gabriel and all...

If you *think* that you have the "Holy Spirit" in you - then that is all it is, you THINKING it so.

The Holy Spirit (Ruhu-l-Kuds, Gabriel) was sent to strengthen Jesus and help him throughout his mission.

The belief in the "Holy Spirit" that will then "dwell" in us etc. comes partially from the teachings about the "Spirit of Truth" or the "Comforter" in John's Gospel - but there, the person described is just that, a PERSON, a Human, who Jesus says will come later and teach us the WHOLE TRUTH, and he will only speak what he hears - meaning he will receive a revelation from God, and that he will relay to us. Further more he says, this person will GLORIFY Jesus - there is only one person after Jesus that came with a revelation from God and glorified him AND who fulfilled all the criteria given in John's Gospel. Even his description "Spirit of Truth" fits - as this person, even before becoming a prophet was known among his people and even from his enemies as "the trustworthy/truthful" the "one who always tells the truth" - this is why he earned the pseudonym Al-Amin.

reply to post by Akragon


In a family the father, wife, and child are one. Weather they are equal is up to you to decide.

My analogy leaves open whatever possibility one would like to come to. If it is easier for you to see the Father, Son and Spirit as completely separate that is acceptable. For some it is easier for them to understand them as one, which is also acceptable. This is why I believe my human analogy is perfect for all believers.

I don’t believe a full understanding of the relationship of the three has anything to do with faith. One only needs have faith in the existence of all 3.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


I appreciate your belief and interpretation. If what you believe brings you closer to God than who am I to question your belief.

My faith is one that cannot be put completely into words. For me the teacher is the Holy Spirit. I simply woke up one day changed. The only explanation and my family will tell you is that I was changed by God. I indeed died to myself and became something new. I no longer desire worldly things, I can’t stop reading about, listening to, discussing God. My children have to ask for conversations that don’t include God. The only thing that I can say is that I feel closer to God than I would have thought imaginable, this can only be explained by the Holy Spirit living in me. This indwelling of the spirit is not a belief in God for I have always had belief in God. The Holy Spirit provides a near complete unity with God.

You see I have never been a churched person, but since childhood I believed in God. My mother taught me that I should discover for myself what the truth was. A little about me, I believe the earth is about 6000 years old and the biblical creation account along with most of the bible I believe to be quite literal. The foundation of my faith cannot be shaken.

As I have already said I do believe that we believe in the same God, since we both agree that there is only one God and he is the creator of everything. And we also agree that all signs point to a loving God.

I do not confess to understand all the ways of God, but if you don’t have faith in what I believe to be the truth. At least accept that I have faith in my faith.

reply to post by sacgamer25

If it is easier for you to see the Father, Son and Spirit as completely separate that is acceptable

I did not say that....

they are all a part of God... seperation is an illusion produced by God.

They are not equal to God, because God is all... and nothing in heaven or earth can compare to him.

reply to post by Akragon


You know you should try and get away from that KJV. Here is the same verse from NIV. I now think I understand where your issue is. I believe if you were to look into other interpretations you may realize that the KJV embellishes on the Godliness of Christ, where in other version the message sticks to the earthly humanness of Christ.

I am not sure how much research you have done, but I believe that the correct interpretation of the Greek you will find that the reader is left to his own understanding of the 3. To me it’s as if God intentionally left the possibility for both interpretations. This to me is something that should not separate us. I accept either possibility.


Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

reply to post by sacgamer25


the trinity was not taught by Jesus or his followers in the orignal texts my friend...

It was introduced 300+ years later...

but it does not seperate us... Love seperates us... or at least "lack there of"

reply to post by Akragon


I agree and disagree. Jesus in the flesh came to earth as a man 100% void of Godly power. He had only the word of God and the Holy Spirit. Now you and I believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one.

I think this may help you understand why I accept the rest of the New Testament. Jesus as a man realized that he had not the authority of the father. That he had purposely set aside that authority. So long as he allowed himself to be the son of man, in order that he might allow himself to be tempted in every way we are and show us how to overcome sin.

He himself created the separation between the son and father. Because of this separation as a man he did not consider himself equal to God. Being that he subjected himself fully to the laws of nature. So the creator became part of the creation, and subject to the creation. One that is subject to creation is not equal to one not subject to the creation.

To me this is the greatest sacrifice. God allowed himself to be subject to his creation.

And I also believe that although the gifts have not been given for quite some time. I believe that God, through the Holy Spirit has the power to give one the ability to heal and perform miracles, just as the apostles were doing.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Akragon

 

I agree and disagree. Jesus in the flesh came to earth as a man 100% void of Godly power.

Being that he subjected himself fully to the laws of nature. So the creator became part of the creation, and subject to the creation. One that is subject to creation is not equal to one not subject to the creation.

To me this is the greatest sacrifice. God allowed himself to be subject to his creation.

edit on 3-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

OK. Now, if we take this as the premise: It would seem then that the one being crucified was 100% human.

If he died as 100% human, how was he able to atone for the sins of humanity, if no human can do that (only God can)?

reply to post by sacgamer25


This comes from John 1... and it is narration of his book.

Jesus did not teach he was "God in the flesh"

Or anything close to that... He denied being God in fact, though most overlook it...

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


This is the great obstacle between the Christian and the Muslim faith. We each know the others answer and we both believe we are correct.

I have no problem with rationalizing that God, allowed himself to be fully subject to his creation as the son of man. From a loving standpoint the creator becoming part of the creation, in order that he may personally show the creation the way to him is perfect. For me my creator came in the Flesh as the Son of God Jesus.

By doing this he allowed himself to be subject to the father’s creation. So although he is one with the father he allowed this separation in order to prove that he loved us and forgave us before we were even born. By accepting this forgiveness one stops believing in God, but instead becomes a new creation a son of God. A son that God chooses to dwell in through his Holy Spirit. It is the connection to the Holy Spirit that allows one to know that they are God’s child and will return to him one day.

The main problem is most who claim that the Holy Spirit lives in them either don’t have the spirit they claim or simply have not yet understood the Spirit. Like I said in the post they have not watered the seed.

I make this statement out of sadness not out of pride. It is my opinion that you have listened to many false teachers who claim that they are teaching with the authority of Christ. I do not follow their religion or their dogma. I follow only what is in the bible.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

This comes from John 1... and it is narration of his book.

Jesus did not teach he was "God in the flesh"

Or anything close to that... He denied being God in fact, though most overlook it...

Like I have said it matters not what one beleives of the relationship between the father, son and Spirit. It matters only that one beleive in all 3.

reply to post by Akragon


Akragon, this is for you. I just wanted to show you how interchangeable the views are and how it matters little to the message what you or I believe about the relationship of the 3.

This is the great obstacle between the Christian and the Muslim faith. We each know the others answer and we both believe we are correct.

I have no problem with rationalizing that God sent his only son to be subject to his creation. From a loving standpoint the Son becoming part of the creation, in order that he may personally show the creation the way to him is perfect. For me the son came in the Flesh as the Son of God Jesus.

By doing this he allowed himself to be subject to the father’s creation. So although he is one with the father he allowed this separation in order to prove that he loved us and forgave us before we were even born. By accepting this forgiveness one stops believing in God, but instead becomes a new creation a son of God. A son that God chooses to dwell in through his Holy Spirit. It is the connection to the Holy Spirit that allows one to know that they are God’s child and will return to him one day.

The main problem is most who claim that the Holy Spirit lives in them either don’t have the spirit they claim or simply have not yet understood the Spirit. Like I said in the post they have not watered the seed.

I make this statement out of sadness not out of pride. It is my opinion that you have listened to many false teachers who claim that they are teaching with the authority of Christ. I do not follow their religion or their dogma. I follow only what is in the bible.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Hey SG...thanks for the invite over. I need to carefully go through all the posts here again. Little hung up on some basics that people use, but is starting to mean something else to me that is different from the norm. But I have to start with some basics questions so I can understand more of what is in the following posts in this thread first. Probably have quite a few more questions coming...let's start with an inside supporting argument first.

You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.

Give me your definition of "murder"? Is it the obvious i.e. taking a physical life. Is it what we consider killing someone in modern times? Or is it something else in your mind?

Thanks!

reply to post by Awoken4Ever


Mathew 21-22

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

I believe that what Jesus is saying here is that all of mankind, except maybe the truly lawless, are to be considered brothers and sisters.

If I allow myself to get angry, especially at one of my brothers or sisters who are not believers, we will walk away hating each other. So if I allow myself to walk away in anger I have essentially shut the door to Christ on the believer. Now who do you suppose faces judgment for the closed door? In essence haven’t I left my brother or sister spiritually dead? Woe is me and the fires of hell I deserve for closing that door on my brother.

This concept is heavily reinforced by the teaching that we are not to judge the unbeliever. For if I pass judgment, especially the” if you don’t have Jesus you go to hell” judgment, on the unbeliever I have indeed permanently shut that door. If not for God that door could not be re opened.

reply to post by sacgamer25

So murder isn't necessarily stopping the heartbeat and final breath murder, murder is the spiritual murder from what I understand you saying slightly.

I think you are saying the same thing that I see when I look at it now, but I just don't have the proper vocabulary or terminology yet to explain my thinking.

I think the final heartbeat/breath murder is an indirect consequence of the true murder. Meaning, if you physically kill someone in the 3D world, then you never gave them a chance to reach their spiritual progress, path, whatever word fits here that I don't have yet, which is the direct murder the bible refers to. So the 3D murder is just secondary to the true crime, but at the same token protects the 3D law as a result also. Kind of the kill two birds with one stone thing. If I see this correctly like I am reading it now, it's actually pretty wild how the law covers both aspects directly or indirectly.

Bottom line is the "murder" is the spirit not the physical. You can also kill the spirit, be guilty of murder, and not ever touch the 3D rule. If you kill the 3D though, then you kill them both.

Does that make any sense? Am I close?

Originally posted by Awoken4Ever
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

So murder isn't necessarily stopping the heartbeat and final breath murder, murder is the spiritual murder from what I understand you saying slightly.

I think you are saying the same thing that I see when I look at it now, but I just don't have the proper vocabulary or terminology yet to explain my thinking.

I think the final heartbeat/breath murder is an indirect consequence of the true murder. Meaning, if you physically kill someone in the 3D world, then you never gave them a chance to reach their spiritual progress, path, whatever word fits here that I don't have yet, which is the direct murder the bible refers to. So the 3D murder is just secondary to the true crime, but at the same token protects the 3D law as a result also. Kind of the kill two birds with one stone thing. If I see this correctly like I am reading it now, it's actually pretty wild how the law covers both aspects directly or indirectly.

Bottom line is the "murder" is the spirit not the physical. You can also kill the spirit, be guilty of murder, and not ever touch the 3D rule. If you kill the 3D though, then you kill them both.

Does that make any sense? Am I close?

edit on 3-1-2012 by Awoken4Ever because: (no reason given)

I believe what you are calling the 3D world can better be described as the law. You see the Mosaic Law though shall not kill, meant only physical death. You see the law was only a shadow of the truth. The law left man with sayings like an eye for an eye, and look but don’t touch, love your friend but not your enemy.

Jesus came to clarify the law and provide for us a way to follow the law in this new way. Through Grace and the Holy Spirit we are capable of following the law more perfectly. Now it may not be possible for us to completely walk the perfect walk of Christ, but we should be imitators of the walk at minimum.

So you see the law though shall not kill now includes even getting angry. So as Christians we are called to keep this emotion from our mouth. It is impossible to not be tempted to be angry, but it is possible to stand up to that temptation. When you feel that you are getting angry you know you are being tempted. Once you realize this you pray for the temptation to leave and it will.

The largest issue that non Christians have with the bible is the Old Testament. The concept that eludes them is God is much more concerned with spiritual death than physical death. So looking at the Mosaic Law and the death penalty associated with it you can start to better understand the penalty.

The flood cleaned the earth of Spiritually Dead people. Israel when they conquered the lands were killing people who were worshiping false Gods and practicing forms of human sacrifice. In God’s eyes they were already dead because they were spiritually dead. So there physical death was the only way to free them from spiritual death. So he indeed had mercy on the spiritually dead through physical death.

If the law said don’t do “X” or you shall be stoned and you continue to do “X” than you prove that you are spiritually dead, so physical death was God’s mercy. Also spiritually dead people are like cancer they tend to lead others to spiritual death, this could not be allowed for God’s chosen people.

The New Covenant brings a new way. Now although we become sinners and in doing so separate ourselves from our father, becoming spiritually dead, we have been given a new hope. If one repents for their sins and has faith in father, son and Holy Spirit, we can become born again. You see we allow are flesh to die, and become a new creation through the Holy Spirit. So instead of the physical death of the Mosaic Law we now fulfill the law perfectly by nailing our flesh, our will, to the cross.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Thank you, this helped a lot! You mentioned a couple of other things that unlocked some other stuff I am stuck in your OP about. I have a few things to go do, but I will be back later today and can now go back and understand things a little clearer in OP. Sure more questions will follow