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Originally posted by WatchRider
reply to post by Never Despise
This is interesting, a weird theory I have about back then was that the decade of the 1980s started off fairly well and did peak at about the point of the mid-1980s.
Then after that point, some state 1986 or '87 as the exact year things began to descend and helter-skelter a bit and lead into a whole different timeline or pathway.
Now I've already heard that something weird caused it but I wasn't sure what it was....
So with this bugging me (as it has for a while) I specifically asked him what caused this.
He reckoned that all across the earth there's a sequence of stones, that when 'aligned' cause a 'shift' in conciousness.
He told me that these 'stones' were moving into alignment (late 70s to early 80s) and actually aligned perfectly in 1986 - 87, then moved slowly out of alignment again.
He was in a big city when '86 and '87 were going on and in his words 'many people were kind of crazy', or 'possessed by a kind of madness' for that period....
Originally posted by AuranVector
In any case, their "mystical" experience was not of the highest order. The evidence is in the way they lived their lives.
Originally posted by KarensHoliday
The OP is a very smart and articulate person who has a great insight into psychological matters. I wonder if this is something he inhereted from his father too, besides writing skills, hmmm?
Originally posted by Never Despise
Thank you for all your various comments, AuranVector. I would like to address one specific point:
Originally posted by AuranVector
In any case, their "mystical" experience was not of the highest order. The evidence is in the way they lived their lives.
Now, this puts its finger on an interesting issue. The question is whether the "order of magnitude" of the experience is automatically reflected in the way the experiencer then goes on to live his or her life.
I'm not going to get into the "order" or "rank" of what my parents experienced...they presented it as being the absolute ultimate, the pinnacle of all experiences, the highest order. That doesn't mean it was, of course. Having not experienced it myself, I cannot say for sure one way or the other....
ND: “If you have a mystical experience "of the highest order," does that automatically go on to make you saintly, morally pure, and ethically stainless?”
ND: “It is as if the seeker becomes perfectly pure at a single stroke and the rest of their life is smooth sailing, morally and metaphysically speaking.”
ND: “I cannot agree with this view of things, because I don't think there is any sort of automatic cosmic mechanism for translating profound experience into a morally sound life. ”
ND: “I contend that it is perfectly possible to have a mystical experience of the highest order, and still live as a jerk. In the warm afterglow of the experience, morality may seem to flow automatically, as within a state of grace. But this warm afterglow vanishes eventually and unless you put in real sweat and effort to being moral, it's going to get warped and/or fade.”
ND: “And a funny thing about morality -- it has zero correlation with intelligence. Intelligence is good, but no guarantee of morality. In the same way, I firmly believe that a mystical experience (of any order, high to low) is a good thing, but it, too, is no guarantee of morality. This is my opinion, based on the observation of my parents and also what I have read about other mystics in history.”
ND: “If you have a mystical experience "of the highest order," does that automatically go on to make you saintly, morally pure, and ethically stainless?”
AV: Yes, after having a mystical experience of the highest order and becoming ROOTED in that state, one becomes a saint. A saint is merged with God. God is morally pure & ethically stainless. The actions of a saint may seem strange to us, to people of ordinary consciousness, but the actions of a saint flow from God, they are aligned with the Tao (for lack of a better word), their actions are always perfect.
Originally posted by Never Despise
reply to post by AuranVector
Thanks for the comprehensive reply.
ND: Well you see my friend, this is where our views diverge. The way you explained it (and most of the rest of your post) is totally compatible with the creed of our community. I understand the logic…I just don’t buy it. I don’t think there is ANY human whose “actions are always perfect” or who is “merged with god” to a greater degree than other humans. I disagree with this, because I have seen no such person, I have read about no such person (convincingly) in history. I have seen a lot of people who believed this but couldn’t walk the walk, and history is full of these people too. Not to denigrate your beliefs, mind you. I just stand opposed to this way of thinking, although it was drilled into me as a child of course.
ND: I believe one can have valid mystical states, glimpses, momentary epiphanies, altered states and peak states. But I firmly believe none of this guarantees anything beyond the experience itself. No matter how profound, a mystical experience cannot guarantee that the experiencer is on a higher plane.
ND: You talk later about being “rooted in the higher state” and that makes a little more sense to me. I think you can have these states, learn from them, and use them as a foundation to build a better life. But you still have to do the hard work of living every day, that I am sure of.
ND: My opinion, obviously yours differs. In such matters there is a yawning chasm of faith, and it usually cannot be bridged by words. I hope your belief system brings you fulfillment and happiness, even if I cannot accept it myself. Peace
Originally posted by AuranVectorGetting back to your father, I’m curious about what kind of meditation he taught. Did he use ritual of any kind? Were followers encouraged to read? If so, what?
Any physical exercises? Any breathwork? Etcetera.
Originally posted by FailedProphet
I would like to ask the following questions:
1) Your dad comes across as somebody who very callously and almost off-handedly manipulates and plays with the minds of people around him. Did he treat you differently, as you were his son? If so, how?
2) You mention new, bigger walls, and extreme isolation from the outside, "even more than Waco." It sounds like paranoia was growing, and from what I've read about other groups like this, it seems to be a common theme. These groups get more and more paranoid as time goes on. Why do you think that is??
Originally posted by AuranVector
reply to post by Never Despise
I just wanted to post a quick note for now. There's a lot to respond to in your two new posts.
I'm curious which rituals your father was using in left-handed Tantra. Most Westerners confuse Tantra with sexual Tantra (which comprises only a small portion of Tantra). And that quickly devolves into using the "Tantra" label to have sex. Very funny, as long as the person using it, is not posing as a "spiritual Master."
Are you aware of Rajneesh/Osho? He was one of the worst "scumbag gurus" to hit the West.
Originally posted by KarensHoliday
-You wrote a little about your early childhood, but what were your teens and early 20s like while you were in that community, for you personally? Did you have friends, enemies? Was there adolescent rebellion? What were you thinking about the world and yourself at that point? I mean not about the group, but about you personally, if its not too private.
Thanks!