Christians, how would you counter this quote by Epicurus?

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posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 01:09 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 


Oh

And here I often pride myself on my ability to read between the lines.




posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 01:36 AM
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Originally posted by ShadowLink
reply to post by troubleshooter
 


Oh

And here I often pride myself on my ability to read between the lines.

Call me TS if you like



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 02:42 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 


Doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if you believe in Jesus, and i got that covered. I recognize him as my Messiah and beyond that, nothing else matters. Hel, Hades, Ghenna same deal. Abrahams Bosom, Elysium, Elysian Fields. Oh the similarities.



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 02:51 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroUnlmtd
i was under the impression that GOD created us to see how we would spend our time here, not tell us how to spend that time?


God is not telling you that you have to do anything you do not want to do. He is simply telling you what it will take for you to have eternal life with Him after your time here on Earth is over. You are more than welcome to spend that eternity seperated from Him but before you make that decision you better be sure because once you're dead you can not change your mind.That is exactly what John 3:16 is saying to anyone who will listen: that despite the hatred and resentment and despite that man has shown Him and each other, He still loves us enough to sacrifice His own Son, Jesus Christ, to die a sinners death, a criminal's death so that you do not have to die in you sins.:


For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whoever might believe on Him should not die but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through Him. (John 3:16-17)


God is offering you and everyone a chance to be saved from the consequences of your sin which is eternal seperation from Him and eventual oblivion...but you are not required to accept His offer or even believe that what I am saying is true. It;s your choice and yours alone. All I'm saying is be sure you know Who God really is and not who you think He is and what He sacrificed for your sake and the consqunce of rejecting that offer. There is only one way to know that: read the Bible, ( I would recommend you start with the Gospel of John), and pray that He will reveal Himself to you as you read and study it.

But like I said, It's up to you, no one is forcing you to do anything...
edit on 1/2/2012 by lightseeker because: typo
edit on 1/2/2012 by lightseeker because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by troubleshooter
 


Doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if you believe in Jesus, and i got that covered. I recognize him as my Messiah and beyond that, nothing else matters. Hel, Hades, Ghenna same deal. Abrahams Bosom, Elysium, Elysian Fields. Oh the similarities.

That's good ... we both believe in Jesus.

Re hell...I posted the following a while back here...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Reproduced just for you...

The Greek word 'Ghenna' translated 'hell' in the New Testament was Jerusalem's garbage dump.

Worms ate the refuse and fires burned off the methane...
...it is a metaphor...
...it was meant to convey the idea that unless the 'spirit' of a human is united to the 'Spirit' they will be 'put out with the garbage'.

The idea of an eternally burning hell did not originate in Hebrew thought...
...but was based on ideas of mans post-mortem state that originated with Homer and later developed by Plato...
...later introduced into Christian thinking as the church became progressively more Gentile...
...then popularized by Dante and exploited by prelates as a tool to increase church membership.
...dwarfed by other issues the Protestant Reformers simply inherited the idea.

There is, however, one example of 'eternal fire' open to scientific evaluation.

A description of an event was recorded in Jude 1:7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed by 'aionios pur', literally 'eternal fire'.


Gomorrha can be seen on Google Earth at 31 19 38 N 35 22 36 E...
Sodom at 31°11'47.62"N 35°23'47.34"E

There is no 'eternal fire' at this location now...

So the term 'eternal fire' must mean 'complete destruction' and not a reference to a fire that never stops burning.




posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 


Whered you find the location for sodom and gomorah? i knew they had to be by the dead sea somewhere but after several thousand years there would be no trace of either place as sand and soil would have ended up covering both places.



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter
There is a bigger problem that the problem of pain and evil ... that is the problem of good...
...why is there so much good in the world?


There isn't, take a look around you. What do you see is good? Murder? Rape? Abortion? Robbery? Greed? Avarice? War? Famine? Disease? Pornography? Adultery? Lust? Homosexuality? Masturbation? Beastiality? Hatred? Racism? Selfishness?

If anyone sees any of that and think's it is good then their moral compass is nonexistant.


Perhaps you hang out with the wrong crowd.

Is your life really that dark?



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 02:10 PM
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He is very able but not willing to stop evil at the cost of His creation made in the likeness of Him not understanding that the ability to stop all evil lies within each and every one of us. It would be one hell of a planet if everyone believed that the only thing we could do about evil is to drop down to our knees and start praying to God and asking for help. In my opinion thats only the first step. The second and last step is to take a stand for the right reasons and change things for the good.



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter
There is a bigger problem that the problem of pain and evil ... that is the problem of good...
...why is there so much good in the world?


There isn't, take a look around you. What do you see is good? Murder? Rape? Abortion? Robbery? Greed? Avarice? War? Famine? Disease? Pornography? Adultery? Lust? Homosexuality? Masturbation? Beastiality? Hatred? Racism? Selfishness?

If anyone sees any of that and think's it is good then their moral compass is nonexistant.

Quite like lust and masturbation helps when my partner is knackered from work and NOBODY suffers so how can those two possibly be "bad". They are only "bad" because they are a means of control by the church. Make natural things bad and people are brainwashed into believing they are bad and thus need saving!!! Oh dear how sad.



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 03:04 PM
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Epicurus, by his own acknowledgment, believes in a monotheistic God? He was from a pantheistic society and yet acknowledges One God? Where did that come from?



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by ShadowLink
 

You can worship anything you want dummy



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by malcr

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter
There is a bigger problem that the problem of pain and evil ... that is the problem of good...
...why is there so much good in the world?


There isn't, take a look around you. What do you see is good? Murder? Rape? Abortion? Robbery? Greed? Avarice? War? Famine? Disease? Pornography? Adultery? Lust? Homosexuality? Masturbation? Beastiality? Hatred? Racism? Selfishness?

If anyone sees any of that and think's it is good then their moral compass is nonexistant.

Quite like lust and masturbation helps when my partner is knackered from work and NOBODY suffers so how can those two possibly be "bad". They are only "bad" because they are a means of control by the church. Make natural things bad and people are brainwashed into believing they are bad and thus need saving!!! Oh dear how sad.


How about when sexual predators masturbate while parked by a playground?



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 


I'm sorry but I find it totally crazy that we are given one short lifetime in which we are judged for eternity. Personally I believe that was are reincarnated after death. The whole idea of heaven and hell makes no sense to me at all and I do not believe that God would put us in this situation. I do not believe that God would condemn ANYONE no matter how evil they were during their short existence on earth to an eternity in hell. To me this sounds like something which was most likely created by man.

I believe that Jesus did exist, but that Christianity as we know it today is far from what Jesus himself taught and that the Bible itself from its inception has been changed vastly from Jesus actual teachings.

I believe that we are given many lifetimes in which we subconsciously develop and in between out life on earth our time in what we know as the 'spirit world' is when we are enlightened by God or whatever you want to call it instead. Basically I believe in the human body most of us are very limited in terms of conciousness and it takes a massive amount of time for us to develop spiritually which is why going to heaven or hell in one lifetime imo makes no sense at all.

This is my belief and I wish people could respect it. The sad thing is that because it isn't a mainstream religious belief when I mention or talk about it people treat me like I'm a bad person and am doomed when I try and live my life as best as I can, helping as many people as possible and being a good person is what's important to me.

And I do not do this out of fear from hell which I believe is a very wrong reason to be a good person. I do it because it is what makes me fulfilled and happy knowing that I make other people happy.

When you think about it making people live a 'good' life out of fear of forever being condemned to hell is an awful, awful belief to instil in people. I don't think God would ever wat people to be made to feel this way in his name.



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by troubleshooter
 


Whered you find the location for sodom and gomorah? i knew they had to be by the dead sea somewhere but after several thousand years there would be no trace of either place as sand and soil would have ended up covering both places.

Some evidence to consider...

www.arkdiscovery.com...&_gomorrah.htm
edit on 2/1/12 by troubleshooter because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 


How about these references in the Bible to a literal fiery Hell? There are several references to an eternal fiery Hell in the Bible made by the Lord Jesus, Himself! I don't think He was warning people that they would be condemed to the garbage dump, LOL! There are several other references to a fiery hell in scripture and many more that focus on the fact that whether fiery or not, Hell is eternal seperation and suffering seperated from God. But I have to tell you, the references in Revelation about that Lake of Fire reserved for the Devil and all those who reject Jesus are kind of hard to get around, don't you think?


“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire" Matthew 5:21-23.



“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘ Their worm does not die. And the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:42-44



“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him,] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41-46



Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.".Revelation 20:11-14



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by knightsofcydonia
reply to post by ShadowLink
 

You can worship anything you want dummy

Yes, I am well aware of that fact and that is precisely what I do!
Thanks for your valuable insight moron!



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by clintdelicious
 


Well, as I stated before, what anyone chooses to believe is completely up to them. I am not trying to twist your arm or any one elses about this. No one can force anyone to believe anything they don't choose to believe. I can certainly understand your reluctance to accept what I am saying or what the Bible says on the subject; i mean who wants to believe that God is so mean and vindictive that he would judge a person based on just one lifetime's evidence. I felt the same way at one time in my life; I wasn't born a Christian, you know. But what I came to understand and what you need to understand is that it isn't about meanness or vindictiveness or even about only living a short life...It's about God's Holiness and just as importantly about His Love.

You see God is perfect in every way; in His Holiness, in His Character, in His Judgement and in His Love for you and me. He loves us so much that even though He would be completely justified in utterly destroying the entire world because of it's fallenness and it's lack of respect for life and for turning it's back on it's Creator, He sent His Son, Jesus to suffer and die for our fallennes, sinfulness and everything else that seperates us from true fellowship and communion with Him. All that He asks is that you accept the sacrifice that Jesus made as the payment for you own sin debt and He will immediately impute the righteousness of Christ, the righteousness of GOD, to you. In this way, when God sees you, He no longer sees the sinful nasty person you were but He sees Jesus and when it comes time for Judgement, Jesus says to God, "No Father, this one is one of mine."

Another thing to understand is that no one can believe the truth of what the Bible says about all of this unless God reveals it to you and the only way for that to happen is for you to ask Him to. do so. Hebrews 11:6 says this:


But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him". Hebrews 11:6


But if you truly want to know the truth and are willing to accept that truth once you have found it then all that is needed is to ask God to reveal the truth of what you read in the Bible as you are doing so. But if you are not interested in knowing whether what Christians believe is really true, then fine, you have already made your mind up and nothing you read or hear from anyon else is ever going to change your mind. That decision is up to you and no one else can make it for you.



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 05:35 PM
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God exists but individuals don't exist and therefore good and evil don't exist (because they can only be defined relative to an individual)?



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by lightseeker
reply to post by troubleshooter
 


How about these references in the Bible to a literal fiery Hell? There are several references to an eternal fiery Hell in the Bible made by the Lord Jesus, Himself! I don't think He was warning people that they would be condemed to the garbage dump, LOL! There are several other references to a fiery hell in scripture and many more that focus on the fact that whether fiery or not, Hell is eternal seperation and suffering seperated from God. But I have to tell you, the references in Revelation about that Lake of Fire reserved for the Devil and all those who reject Jesus are kind of hard to get around, don't you think?

Please allow me to examine your references...



“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire" Matthew 5:21-23.

The word translated 'hell' in this verse is the Greek Ghenna which is the Jerusalem garbage dump already mentioned.



“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘ Their worm does not die. And the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:42-44

The word 'hell' here is also Ghenna...
...and unless you see this as a metaphor for being 'put out with the garbage'...
...you run into the problem that God has to create 'eternal worms' and a fire that burns 'spirit'.



“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41

The 'everlasting fire (aionios pur) is the same term used in Jude for Sodom and Gomorrah...
...and clearly there is no fire still burning at that location now...
...so it must be a reference to finality rather than duration.



Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.".Revelation 20:11-14

The reference to 'hell' here is not translated from 'ghenna' but 'hades'...
...and in the context is referring to a being that gives the place its name ...
...because that's were he resides...
...and if you don't see it that way, you have a problem with hell itself being cast into the fire...
...so is hell the fire or something that can be destroyed with fire?

I think most of these issues can be resolved with a reference to the original Greek...
...and taking into account colloquial nuance of the time they were said/written...
...they are metaphors meaning final destruction and not eternal duration.

Illustration:
If I say that you are a nice guy but you torture people in your basement...
...there is no way to reconcile that...
...that's what you are saying about God ... He loves but tortures people forever...
...this is a nonesense.



posted on Jan, 2 2012 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by ShadowLink
 


so what exactly do you worship?





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