Christians, how would you counter this quote by Epicurus?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter
There is a bigger problem that the problem of pain and evil ... that is the problem of good...
...why is there so much good in the world?

There isn't, take a look around you. What do you see is good? Murder? Rape? Abortion? Robbery? Greed? Avarice? War? Famine? Disease? Pornography? Adultery? Lust? Homosexuality? Masturbation? Beastiality? Hatred? Racism? Selfishness?

If anyone sees any of that and think's it is good then their moral compass is nonexistant.

I see no evil in homosexuality, masturbation, nor any other practice that does not hurt others or the people commiting the acts. As I mentioned before, it's all a matter of perception. Love is good, but one can love too much. Greed is bad, unless your greed stems from an addiction to spreading joy and hope, and you become gluttonous to that feeling of causing positive feelings in yourself and others.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter
There is a bigger problem that the problem of pain and evil ... that is the problem of good...
...why is there so much good in the world?

There isn't, take a look around you. What do you see is good? Murder? Rape? Abortion? Robbery? Greed? Avarice? War? Famine? Disease? Pornography? Adultery? Lust? Homosexuality? Masturbation? Beastiality? Hatred? Racism? Selfishness?

If anyone sees any of that and think's it is good then their moral compass is nonexistant.

Good still outweighs evil where I come from LW.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter
There is a bigger problem that the problem of pain and evil ... that is the problem of good...
...why is there so much good in the world?

There isn't, take a look around you. What do you see is good? Murder? Rape? Abortion? Robbery? Greed? Avarice? War? Famine? Disease? Pornography? Adultery? Lust? Homosexuality? Masturbation? Beastiality? Hatred? Racism? Selfishness?

If anyone sees any of that and think's it is good then their moral compass is nonexistant.

Romans 5:20 "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:"

reply to post by troubleshooter


I lost my rose tinted glasses a long time ago.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx

Dear xxsomexpersonxx,

I'm afraid there is some misunderstanding here. The question asked was:

If we have free will as a gift from God, why can't we worship whatever we believe...

I simply answered that one can worship whatever one believes. Surely, there's no disagreement about that?

As far as my life goes, of course I've been affected by others' decisions. My parents decided to move to the US where I was born. There is no need to go into all the other decisions that my ancestors, friends, governments, even other countries have made which have affected me.

If i may use symbolic language for a moment? I believe my far distant ancestors decided to change their allegiance from God to Satan. This change made Satan the "Prince of the Power of the Air." We had made our bed, so to speak, and now we're trying to sleep in it. This free will decision corrupted the entire world, human spirits as well as the earth itself.

I hope this clears things up a little.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I lost my rose tinted glasses a long time ago.

Are you actually Christian or just a Fundamentalist?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by ShadowLink
If we have free will as a gift from God, why can't we worship whatever we believe since God has not provided proof of his existence?

You can worship whatever you want and he will not stop you but by breaking his laws, you will have hell to pay for it in the end...literally. The whole point behind his free will covenant was he was giving man the option to make the right choices and we failed the test. The only thing that negates his wrath is Jesus. Jesus makes intercessions on our behalf so God will not destroy us like we deserve. By placing yourself under Christ's dominion and submitting your will to his, he keeps the Father from destroying you and you get the benefit of being forgiven for all manner of sins and evils save one. The only unforgiveable sin is to blasphemy the Holy Spirit and by rejecting Jesus youre saying to the Holy Spirit that his miracles through Christ that allowed him to raise the dead, heal the sick, feed 5 thousand from a few loaves of bread and a few fish, by rejecting Jesus youre calling the Holy Spirit a liar and denying that Jesus is the messiah and that is the one sin that damns you for eternity, it is the one sin that Jesus will not forgive in this life or the next.

edit on 1-1-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Hogwash!
There is no proof of any of this stuff. The bible is a copy of more ancient religions and written by men.
Men who were not evolved enough to know any better apparently.

I am someone who requires proof in some form before I dedicate my life to something as preposterous as this. I refuse to follow anyone, or anything blindly and whole heartedly.

Sorry I don't share your peoples views. Call me a sinner or a lost soul or whatever. Maybe I will burn in hell when my time comes, but I am sure IF god is real, that he will forgive my sins and understand why I think it's not wise to just follow blindly a bunch of men from before my time just because they said so.

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I lost my rose tinted glasses a long time ago.

Are you actually Christian or just a Fundamentalist?

I don't believe in religion.

reply to post by ShadowLink

Dear ShadowLink,

Forgive my poking into your business, but what do you believe? Only things that can be measured in a lab and proven? Do you believe there is no God? How was that proven to your satisfaction? Or do you believe in a cosmic force that created the universe? That can't be proven either.

Whatever words anyone uses, each of us believes in something that can't ultimately be proven. We can choose whatever we want to believe, but we should remind ourselves that it's not based on provable facts.

Go ahead and tell God that he's not real and you don't believe in Him. That's entirely your call. You said you're sure he will understand and forgive. I pray that's the case.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I lost my rose tinted glasses a long time ago.

Are you actually Christian or just a Fundamentalist?

I don't believe in religion.

That's not what I asked LW ... I am not religious either but I am Christian...
....I am not sure yet if you are or not.

reply to post by charles1952

To be honest I really can't say what I believe, that's part of why I am here, to find information and seek answers for myself. I do prefer to have some form of tangible proof of something before I dedicate my life to it.

That is not to say I don't believe there is something more, in fact I believe there is, but I don't think it's Jesus or God because those are ideas of men.
How can you people follow so blindly, words written by men as though they were dictated by God?

I would like to think that IF there is a God, he would want me to ask questions, he would want me to seek the truth for myself.

Sadly Christianities history leaves too many questions for me to just follow blindly.

Originally posted by ShadowLink
reply to post by charles1952

 

Sadly Christianities history leaves too many questions for me to just follow blindly.

The history of Christianity is just the history of man and religion.

Years ago I separated the story of Jesus in the Gospels from the subsequent history of the religion that took His name and I believed the story of who Jesus was and that Romans and Jews killed Him and that He rose from the dead.

I believed this and received His Spirit.

This can happen without the religious history part of it.

reply to post by ShadowLink

Dear ShadowLink,

Thank you very much for that post. It seemed heartfelt, honest, and open. I'm really impressed when I see that on ATS.

There are several things I might ask you to consider, but why not start where you are? You want to seek answers. That's what a human is made for and I applaud you. Too many just sit and accept. We've been given brains, we're supposed to use them.

You won't, of course, find provable answers.

That is not to say I don't believe there is something more, in fact I believe there is.

So do I, but I can't think of any experiment to prove it. It just seems right to my heart and to my head.

The mystery of our existence, of evil, of the afterlife. The mystery of why we sacrifice ourselves for others when we get nothing for it. The nearly universal belief among men of all times and places that there is a God, and good and evil. These are things that should be questioned and explored. In fact, they have been explored for thousands of years by the humblest peasant and the greatest minds of philosophy. Now it's your turn.

How can you people follow so blindly, words written by men as though they were dictated by God?

I don't, although I think Muslims and Mormons do. But what other words do we have than the words of men? Ask Socrates, or Augustine, or Chesterton about God. They'll give you what they've found. Then think about it. Reject the false, keep the true, use your brain.

Ask the questions that Christianity leaves you with. Someone, probably dozens of someones, have thought about it and their thoughts are preserved. Check it out with them.

There is so much to say. I only hope I have been a little useful.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I lost my rose tinted glasses a long time ago.

Are you actually Christian or just a Fundamentalist?

I don't believe in religion.

That's not what I asked LW ... I am not religious either but I am Christian...
....I am not sure yet if you are or not.

edit on 1/1/12 by troubleshooter because: (no reason given)

Uh, yeah i am christian and no i am not catholic.

reply to post by troubleshooter


So you took the story of Jesus from the gospels, which was written by men and felt it to be true and followed it?
You also believe a man from a story written by men actually rose from the dead and you took into yourself, his spirit?

Perhaps you truly feel enlightened or touched by the spirit of Jesus I am happy for you, but how do you know it's Jesus? Why not just say you believe in A god, and not follow under the banner of Christianity?

Originally posted by ShadowLink
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

So you took the story of Jesus from the gospels, which was written by men and felt it to be true and followed it?
You also believe a man from a story written by men actually rose from the dead and you took into yourself, his spirit?

Perhaps you truly feel enlightened or touched by the spirit of Jesus I am happy for you, but how do you know it's Jesus? Why not just say you believe in A god, and not follow under the banner of Christianity?

As simple and foolish as it seems SL ... it works.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I lost my rose tinted glasses a long time ago.

Are you actually Christian or just a Fundamentalist?

I don't believe in religion.

That's not what I asked LW ... I am not religious either but I am Christian...
....I am not sure yet if you are or not.

edit on 1/1/12 by troubleshooter because: (no reason given)

Uh, yeah i am christian and no i am not catholic.

You have swalled the whole 'hell' thing though like a good Catholic.

The eternal burning 'hell' thing has it's origin in Homer ans Plato, popularized by Dante and should have been revised by Protestants but they had other pressing concerns at the time. You won't find mention of it in Hebrew though except as metaphor ... ie Ghenna.

reply to post by troubleshooter


Not sure what the SL in your response means, but I guess I can accept your answer if that's what works for you.

Perhaps in heart I am Christian? in a sense cause I do believe in something, but I will not fly under that banner because it's not THE God or Christ. And that's what works for me.

reply to post by IEtherianSoul9


Free will.

Originally posted by ShadowLink
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

Not sure what the SL in your response means, but I guess I can accept your answer if that's what works for you.

Perhaps in heart I am Christian? in a sense cause I do believe in something, but I will not fly under that banner because it's not THE God or Christ. And that's what works for me.

SL is an abreviation of ShadowLink ... that's all