Christians, how would you counter this quote by Epicurus?

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posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 09:55 PM
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus


thinkexist.com...




posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:00 PM
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Originally posted by IEtherianSoul9


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus


thinkexist.com...

The freedom of your will as a creature is more important than the omnipotence of Deity.
edit on 1/1/12 by troubleshooter because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:00 PM
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"Free Will"

Everything. Tornadoes, Earthquakes, animal violence, Diseases, parasites, you name it, are not Gods doing. They are the result of God's Loving decision to design a system where humans having the ability to make choices some how cause that.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
"Free Will"

Everything. Tornadoes, Earthquakes, animal violence, Diseases, parasites, you name it, are not Gods doing. They are the result of God's Loving decision to design a system where humans having the ability to make choices some how cause that.

We would have had the means to resist and control all this had our race not chosen independance.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:06 PM
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I would counter this quote by Epicurus with another one of his own quotes.


to think that death is nothing to us; [color=gold] for all good and evil is in feeling; now death is the privation of feeling. Hence, the right knowledge that death is nothing to us makes us enjoy what there is in this life, not adding to it an indefinite duration, but eradicating the desire of immortality.

Catholic Encyclopedia: Epicurian Ethics


According to this quote,
there is no such thing as objective evil or good,
only feelings.

Hmmmm.

Moral relativisim anyone?


David Grouchy



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:07 PM
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If we have free will as a gift from God, why can't we worship whatever we believe since God has not provided proof of his existence?



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowLink
If we have free will as a gift from God, why can't we worship whatever we believe since God has not provided proof of his existence?

The proof of the existence of a radio station is to tune into the frequency that carries it...
...it is easy to say something does not exist if one is not looking in the right place.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:14 PM
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Being able but not willing to counteract evil? Not malevolent in my opinion.

You don't know real joy without pain. You don't know real good without evil.

You cannot have real choice or be fully alive without evil.

That being said, I never believed (not a Christian anymore) that God is totally omniscient, just omniscient in comparison to us.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck
 

Just because a being is omniscient and omnipotent does not mean that He must always use them...
...any more than I must have hundreds of offspring just because I can...
...you should not devorce ability from personality in a dieity...
...any more than you would in one made in His image.

edit on 1/1/12 by troubleshooter because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by ShadowLink
 



If we have free will as a gift from God, why can't we worship whatever we believe since God has not provided proof of his existence?
But, you can worship anything you believe. You can drive your car into a bridge abutment, get addicted to drugs, kill people, anything.

But, there's a consequence to every decision we make.

The great respect He gives us is that of freedom. We are not robots, His wind up toys. We can spit in His face if we want. We can say "I don't want to have anything to do with You for ever and ever." Then our wish is granted.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
"Free Will"

Everything. Tornadoes, Earthquakes, animal violence, Diseases, parasites, you name it, are not Gods doing. They are the result of God's Loving decision to design a system where humans having the ability to make choices some how cause that.

We would have had the means to resist and control all this had our race not chosen independance.


I'm not doubting that.

Those kids born in africa, born starving and/or with Aids, many only living a few weeks of suffering before death. Most only getting a few years of the Same.
People born anywhere with deformities, or debilitating mental problems.
Families torn apart and killed by environmental disaster.
Animals getting torn to pieces, dehydrating, starving, rotting from disease.

They all deserve it for what other humans have decided to do. It's not just a reaction. If it was a reaction, a Malevolent god would protect the innocent from reactions they didn't deserve. All suffering is much deserved. That makes so much sense, I couldn't ever see why anyone would ever question it.

~
All suffering is a justified result of free will. That is the only real excuse I've ever seen, and it falls apart way too easily.

~
Other excuse is "God's thinking is greater than ours". Old Testament atrocities, modern evils in the world, otherwise contradictory or illogical plans, we can't question it. Because his decisions, that seem like they were written by bronze age barbarians, are actually written by a mind vastly more intelligent than ours.

I've seen that used in response to Epicurus a few times as well. Also, not that great of a response.

~
Wiki Page on the Problem of Evil
And Another

These two should sum up the entire issues, points and counterpoints, fairly well and accurately.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:37 PM
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reply to post by IEtherianSoul9
 


I counter your quote with this:

His free will covenant with Man. If he steps in and stops this himself and gets involved directly he breaks his own covenant and God is so righteous he even follows his own laws so that ain't gonna happen. The loophole was he could send others to accomplish this task, which was the whole purpose in sending Jesus. He is omnipotent but he is unwilling to break his covenants. He can also bestow his blessings on those he deems righteous.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:37 PM
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There is a bigger problem that the problem of pain and evil ... that is the problem of good...
...why is there so much good in the world?



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by IEtherianSoul9
 


I counter your quote with this:

His free will covenant with Man. If he steps in and stops this himself and gets involved directly he breaks his own covenant and God is so righteous he even follows his own laws so that ain't gonna happen. The loophole was he could send others to accomplish this task, which was the whole purpose in sending Jesus. He is omnipotent but he is unwilling to break his covenants. He can also bestow his blessings on those he deems righteous.

Jesus fulfilled the promise of a 'seed' that was transmitted through Noah/Abraham/Israel...
...the 'seed' which was Christ (Gal 3:16) died as any other man but went through death...
...and emerged on the other side.

No contract/covenant has power once one has died...
...and we are invited to die too and join Him beyond death in glorious resurrection.
edit on 1/1/12 by troubleshooter because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:48 PM
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reply to post by IEtherianSoul9
 


Dear IEtherianSoul9,

Not surprising the quote came from Epicurus, he believed life she be like the "Club Med" experience and that we should seek pleasure as much as possible. The soft life makes for soft people. Life is about defining oneself and that cannot be done unless one faces challenges. We define ourselves by how we address those challenges and not by how we avoid them in my humble opinion. Peace.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowLink
If we have free will as a gift from God, why can't we worship whatever we believe since God has not provided proof of his existence?


You can worship whatever you want and he will not stop you but by breaking his laws, you will have hell to pay for it in the end...literally. The whole point behind his free will covenant was he was giving man the option to make the right choices and we failed the test. The only thing that negates his wrath is Jesus. Jesus makes intercessions on our behalf so God will not destroy us like we deserve. By placing yourself under Christ's dominion and submitting your will to his, he keeps the Father from destroying you and you get the benefit of being forgiven for all manner of sins and evils save one. The only unforgiveable sin is to blasphemy the Holy Spirit and by rejecting Jesus youre saying to the Holy Spirit that his miracles through Christ that allowed him to raise the dead, heal the sick, feed 5 thousand from a few loaves of bread and a few fish, by rejecting Jesus youre calling the Holy Spirit a liar and denying that Jesus is the messiah and that is the one sin that damns you for eternity, it is the one sin that Jesus will not forgive in this life or the next.
edit on 1-1-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:52 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


If you live a life, where most of your suffering has only been of consequence of your own decisions, you are honestly enviable.

Fact is, most of the suffering in this world, was never caused by any free choices. Especially not by those suffering. Which is why that argument fails horribly.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:53 PM
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i was under the impression that GOD created us to see how we would spend our time here, not tell us how to spend that time?



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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Both good and evil are matters of perception as men are unable to see the complete timeline of consequences, and as such; an all powerful being (if you cater to such fair) would have to fulfill the roles of both God and the Devil, perceptively.

Personally, I believe free will is factoring proof that we are all deity-like, and since this "will" allows us to commit acts of both kindness and cruelty, we are also both gods and devils in our actions.
edit on 1-1-2012 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by troubleshooter
There is a bigger problem that the problem of pain and evil ... that is the problem of good...
...why is there so much good in the world?


There isn't, take a look around you. What do you see is good? Murder? Rape? Abortion? Robbery? Greed? Avarice? War? Famine? Disease? Pornography? Adultery? Lust? Homosexuality? Masturbation? Beastiality? Hatred? Racism? Selfishness?

If anyone sees any of that and think's it is good then their moral compass is nonexistant.





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