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Masonic question

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posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 07:35 AM
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A masonic question-

    Nothing to do with rituals because you guys (pro-masons) seem to be offended whenever that subject comes up. Understandable for reasons such as diverse as the abuse allegations and stuff on ATS thread. I suppose some of those questions just can never be answered /shrug\


Because of the murders (killings) of masons by masons have your lodges enacted any specific safeguards to prevent this in the future?

In keeping with anti-terrorism and such- or for other reasons?

I'm asking this based upon the chaos theory- you know that, right?

I didn't want to cross-post this because that's not good net- etiquette and all, you guys know that's a concern that I might be slavishly obedient to, am I right?

I've seen posts where guns are not allowed in lodge.
What I'm wondering here is this:
    is this a new policy or one that was accepted a few years back? If so do you have any links (not freshly created sites) supporting this?


Any input is strictly voluntary, of course.

Oh yeah, how is the on-line recruiting going?
Signing up a lot?
Do you take PayPal(r)?

I didn't want to list and citations and such on this thread. That kind of thing seems to detract sometimes I've been told.




posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
A masonic question-

    Nothing to do with rituals because you guys (pro-masons) seem to be offended whenever that subject comes up. Understandable for reasons such as diverse as the abuse allegations and stuff on ATS thread. I suppose some of those questions just can never be answered /shrug\


Because of the murders (killings) of masons by masons have your lodges enacted any specific safeguards to prevent this in the future?

In keeping with anti-terrorism and such- or for other reasons?

I'm asking this based upon the chaos theory- you know that, right?

I didn't want to cross-post this because that's not good net- etiquette and all, you guys know that's a concern that I might be slavishly obedient to, am I right?

I've seen posts where guns are not allowed in lodge.
What I'm wondering here is this:
    is this a new policy or one that was accepted a few years back? If so do you have any links (not freshly created sites) supporting this?


Any input is strictly voluntary, of course.

Oh yeah, how is the on-line recruiting going?
Signing up a lot?
Do you take PayPal(r)?

I didn't want to list and citations and such on this thread. That kind of thing seems to detract sometimes I've been told.



1.) Masons don't murder Masons, or anyone else.

2.) Your use of "chaos theory" in this context is incorrect.

3.) There is no online recruiting.

4.) You're cruisin' . . . . . . . . .



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 08:17 AM
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Originally posted by LTD602

1.) Masons don't murder Masons, or anyone else.

2.) Your use of "chaos theory" in this context is incorrect.

3.) There is no online recruiting.

4.) You're cruisin' . . . . . . . . .


Follow the link- there's plenty that refutes your statement "1.)"

Really, are you a chaos theory expert or something? Can you give me a few links to this statement of yours? @ "2.)"

Come on- does anyone believe this? You are connected to the Internet, right? @ "3.) Can you give me some links?

Cruising?

Not much to ask for- but then, you aren't a REAL mason are you?

Are you a troll?







posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 08:25 AM
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Masons no more murder other Masons than people murder other people every day, meaning:

1.) It is not a problem that is specific to Masonry. There are hundred of thousands of Masons around the world. You wouldn't even be able to name 50 cases.

2.) It does not warrant any widespread attention.

Freemasonrywatchorg, mindcontrolforums.com, and other kinds of juvenile flotsam arond the web (that you use) do not count as sources. They don't even count as entertainment.

Your use of chaos theory in this context is far too nebulous. It is a specific phenomenon. It is also . . . . a theory, not fact.

Troll?

I'm not the one with the "warn" under his name.



[edit on 10-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by LTD602

Your use of chaos theory in this context is far too nebulous. It is a specific phenomenon. It is also . . . . a theory, not fact.

Troll?

I'm not the one with the "warn" under his name.


so then you aren't an expert and were just what- posting a guess or observation?

I got the 'flag' not from trolling- but from disagreeing in a 'style' that was deemed inapproprite by one of this boards MODs- you want to argue with him, follow the link and U2U - a few others can instruct you regarding the way to do this.

As i don't complain I don't know how to (mason humor)




posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 10:25 AM
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Your "style":

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I simply clicked on the warn, and it took me right to the post.

A convenient feature.

And no, I have no argument with the mods. I agreed with their decision in this matter.



[edit on 10-9-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
A masonic question-

< SNIP >

Because of the murders (killings) of masons by masons have your lodges enacted any specific safeguards to prevent this in the future?

In keeping with anti-terrorism and such- or for other reasons?

I'm asking this based upon the chaos theory- you know that, right?


Well, since GUNS and gunplay are not part of masonic ritual, nor any part of masonry, there was not anything that needed to be done, per se. The incident itself has been widely discussed within the lodges and among brothers, as an appalling tragedy. It is not, however, representative of anything, and if nothing else, the discussion of this incident has served to reinforce our precepts and principles.

But to answer you directly, our grand master made a passing reference to it, by reminding brothers that hazing and harassment has NO PLACE in masonic ritual.


I didn't want to cross-post this because that's not good net- etiquette and all, you guys know that's a concern that I might be slavishly obedient to, am I right?


I have to be honest I do not know what the heck you mean by the above...


I've seen posts where guns are not allowed in lodge. What I'm wondering here is this:
    is this a new policy or one that was accepted a few years back? If so do you have any links (not freshly created sites) supporting this?


No, this is not a new policy. Weapons are not allowed in lodge. We have a number of police officers in our lodge, and when they come to lodge, they lock their weapons in the tylers desk and do not bring them in lodge. Bringing weapons into lodge has ALWAYS been a no-no, and is addressed in ritual of the first degree... "divested of all minerals and metals that you might bring nothing offensive of defensive into the lodge whereby its peace and harmony might be distrubed...:

My grandfather was raised in Alhambra Lodge, which was at that time known as the Highway patrol lodge, due to the large number of Highway Patrolmen in that lodge. They had a weapons locker outside the lodgeroom, where the officers might individually store their weapons PRIOR to entering lodge.

So, to answer you directly: No new policy was in effect as it has ALWAYS been a policy not to bring weapons into lodge.

And, not to put too fine a point on it, but the incident where the brother was shot was NOT a masonic event. It was a club that was renting the facilities, and it was THEIR initiation that went wrong. Gunplay has NO PART in masonic ritual.


Any input is strictly voluntary, of course.

Oh yeah, how is the on-line recruiting going?
Signing up a lot?


Well, we are not recruiting, but thanks for asking. We are simply getting the truth out as opposed to the hateful lies that some folks insist on publishing, as is our right... but I really appreciate your taking the time and effort to ask.


Do you take PayPal(r)?


For what? We aren't selling anything, unlike some of your brethren that seem to make a living selling books, tapes, pamphlets and such...


I didn't want to list and citations and such on this thread. That kind of thing seems to detract sometimes I've been told.


No, but I personally find it funny when you provide citations that directly refute the "point" you are trying to make in your posts... as I have noted before, facts are wonderful things, and they all tend to make critical arguments look... intellectually vapid.

Thanks for posting though.


[edit on 10/9/04 by theron dunn]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 11:20 AM
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[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by esther
I feel that the root issue here is more about baiting "the enemy" into revealing secret information.



Esther. That argument is only valid if one side actually does have a secret to reveal.
As you can see throughout this forum, when serious questions are asked of Freemasons here, they always endeavour to try and answer them as honestly as they can.
Hostility only arises when somebody makes venomous accusations with barbed words and then refuses to accept a single word given in answer.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 11:33 AM
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I mean, come on. What's it going to take (on both sides) to make any progress on this issue?


Total Disclosure of all the secrets and ceremonies(manufactured front secrets to conceal true secrets not permitted) Inner/Outter court game not permitted.
Quit hiding behind the 4th Amendment statement

as for the anti-side(maybe less badgering)

After all, whats there to hide?, its only a harmless mans club.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 11:44 AM
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Gladfly, you and people like you are the reason that there is even any external interest generated by Masonry.
If Masons are asked they give answers. If you need to know more, experience, feel Masonry you can join.
When you then uncover conspiracies please give us the names and addresses.
You ask questions of Masonry that are questions to be asked of Mankind in general.
Character flaws etc. are a human trait, not exclsively a Masonic trate.
Please tell me what you think the purpose of Masonry is. ( short version)



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 11:49 AM
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[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:02 PM
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There are certain things the Masons are, by oath, forbidden to divulge


What are these certain things that are forbidden?
Why are they forbidden?
What might happen if they are to divulge these forbidden things? Certainly not death? Certainly the credit cards will still work...wont they?

To occult forbidden things?



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by project_pisces



There are certain things the Masons are, by oath, forbidden to divulge


What are these certain things that are forbidden?
Why are they forbidden?
What might happen if they are to divulge these forbidden things? Certainly not death? Certainly the credit cards will still work...wont they?

To occult forbidden things?



It's about keeping promises . . . . i.e., an OATH.

It's about privacy. The 4th amendemnt protects that.

Ultimately, wha tis private is . . . . none of your business.

There will be no total disclosure. There will be no breaking of promises (and other such dishonourable behaviour.) There will be no answers that violate the privacy of Masons.

If you aren't happy with the Constitution of YOUR United States, then please call your Congressman, make signs, find like-minded people, and exercise your OTHER constitutional right
and hit the streets to protest.

Sounds fair to me.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:13 PM
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Keeping Promises



Outstanding!!!



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:18 PM
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[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
I got the 'flag' not from trolling- but from disagreeing in a 'style' that was deemed inapproprite by one of this boards MODs- you want to argue with him, follow the link and U2U - a few others can instruct you regarding the way to do this.

Hmmmm, I just saw this and thought I would set things straight for you. You are correct that it was not trolling. Your use of the word "style" though in the above quote is certainly a nice word for "personal insult" which was delivered in the statement:



I can 'perceive' it now: he and 'the wife' walking down the aisle at the mall-
him doodling along, sniffing a lot, she wearing a T-shirt that says I'm with Stupid

I hope that clears things up.


As for Masons divulging secrets of their order, would you ask Intel to divulge corporate secrets? Would you ask a person to divulge personal secrets? I don't see why this needs to be expected from Masons. Seems kind of silly to expect anyone would do that.

Since this thread was started by PublicGadfly...then I would turn this back to him. Would you divulge secrets of yourself here? I believe you told me in private about a group you were a member of at one time. Now I won't divulge that in public due to personal ethics, but would you do that here or tell us some of their trade practices? How is the recruiting going for that group? What about know murders by members of that group? Any cases of members of that group being protected by other members? Are guns openly allowed in your group? What about other weapons? What about symbolism of that group?

You might feel uneasy about answering these questions in public, and possibly just from that you might begin to understand the how the other side feels.

As you said...any input is strictly voluntary, of course.


ps) Esther...good post!



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:35 PM
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Right, Esther. No direct harm, that's what it's about.

Smudge: funny avatar.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by project_pisces



I mean, come on. What's it going to take (on both sides) to make any progress on this issue?


Total Disclosure of all the secrets and ceremonies(manufactured front secrets to conceal true secrets not permitted) Inner/Outter court game not permitted.
Quit hiding behind the 4th Amendment statement

as for the anti-side(maybe less badgering)

After all, whats there to hide?, its only a harmless mans club.


Well, to a degree (:lol
I agree with you, however, masons have taken obligations, that is, we have given our words not to reveal what goes on in lodge. If the ONLY objection that can be seriously (??) raised here is that we have secrets, it is one that we will gladly stand convicted upon.

You see, I think PART of being a man, an upright and HONORABLE man, is keeping ones word. In this society, if it is not written it is not a contract. In masonry, if I give you my word, you can take it to the BANK. So part of what masonry teaches is the essence of keeping ones given word, and not looking for ways to waffle and weasel and cheat.

Part of the way that lesson is inculcated is through use. Part of that use is keeping secrets, even if those "secrets" are publically available. If I keep my word, even in so small a thing as the ritual and the modes and means of recognition, and internal lodge business, then by practice, I keep my word in all other areas.

So you see, its part of those lessons that make us good men, that we keep our word when given.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 01:30 PM
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[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]




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