Why can't we accept that terrorists can have valid claims?

Everyone seems to get so uptight about terrorists killing the innocent but no one yet has mentioned the innocents including thousands of children that the US UK Russia and many others have killed in the name of the great western democracy and freedom [tongue in cheek] over the years.

"I lived in a little village and it was becoming bigger and better then some people came and said that we had to pay them money when we were already self-sufficient and happy in our ways then they came with guns and bombs and the backing of the western democracy�s and my child was blown into pieces when we did not conform, you can not imagine what it was like picking up the pieces of my child and the hate i have inside myself for those who killed my child and those that supported them. Where I come from we are not westerners and we do not want to become this way. Our leader was a good man and made good choices but would not conform so they blew him up to�

To be honest with you the above is fiction but I can well imagine that something like that and probably worse fuels the extremists. The western world does create terrorists ashamedly more often in the name of profit then freedom. IMHO

You have a point kode, we tend to see only one side of the story and when somebody dare to argue, well you get name callings, but its true people not only have died in US but also many more on other places around the world.

The same resentment and hatred that we can feel when innocent people die here in US, the innocent and the casualties of the war in the middle east also feel hatred and resentment, hatred only begets hatred.

they have no valid claims

Nothing they say is valid. People that think this believe that they are just sick of being bullied around by the big bad west. The fact is, they want a single unified Islamic funamentalist world led by their clerics. They then use terrorism to kill innocent people in an attempt to further their agenda.

I say: KILL THEM ALL IN THE MOST PAINFULL WAY WE CAN!

And to all you people who think they have valid claims, why don't you go have a face to face conversation with some of them. Ask them about their beliefs, then see what happens when you disagree. You'll lose your head arguing with them (pun intended).

Did these peolple have valid claims?

When settelrs gave the indians blankets with smallpox, were they the first WMDs? I'm not justifying what terrorists do, I'm just curious, what makes them do it. What conditions create terrorists, and how can we prevent those conditions? And no, I don't believe that terrorists are created like this:



I think it's more like this:

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I say: KILL THEM ALL IN THE MOST PAINFULL WAY WE CAN!

I bet your voting for bush. and KILLING THEM ALL IN THE MOST PAINFULL WAY WE CAN! will only create more terrorists, you NUTTER.

Terrorist claims are valid, it�s some of the methods they use to get their cause recognised, which are not.

curme, poverty does not create terrorism. Osama bin laden was not born into poverty, he�s from a rich family.

Yes Osama was rich but his followers are the opress and gulibe seekers of revenge.

And Curme you are right the first people to come to the new land did not had any problem decimating the original residents of the new world in order to take over the land and resources and in places like central America and south America it was the call of gold.

You tell that to people and they cannot comprehend what it means and most of them thanks of the American way of educating will never learn the truth.

It's true the United State's history has oftentimes been bloody and cruel. All the way from the takeing of land away from the Indians, useing the Chinese to build the transcontinental RR(and then not letting them stake gold claims in California), slavery of the black people, useing small children in the factories of the North etc. etc.
They leave out a lot of that in today's school books.

[edit on 11-9-2004 by elaine]

Yes elaine the US and the entire new world has a very bloody and sinister humble beginnings.

Of course terrorists have legitimate claims, anyone who does not believe this should get their head out of their asses and quit listening to Bush.

A very very small percentage of Muslims are terrorists, and they are typically a radical sect of the Muslim faith. Therefore most people tend to think of all Muslims as terrorists.

Simply by eliminating the various terrorist groups we are creating more terrorists. As long as democracy and different religions are around, there will be terrorism.

What exactly makes the U.S different from terrorists?

When one has a point they write about it, they talk about, they seek media attention through the validity of their point, hoping to make changes but once they take a life to make their point, their point is no longer valid, they are simply murderers and murderers no longer have the right to be heard, they have no rights and no one wants to hear them, just lock them away.

Bombing the hell out of supposed terrorists, their families, friends and neighbors is just going to create more terrorism in the world.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction....The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation."
--MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.

"All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth."
--ARISTOTLE

"Stability and peace in our land will not come from the barrel of a gun, because peace without justice is an impossibility."
--Desmond Tutu

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

Originally posted by curme


Did these peolple have valid claims?

I dont remeber Americans storming British schools and killing kids. Thats what makes their claims invalid. When you shoot kids in the back for your cause it no longer matters.

Originally posted by MrJingles


Simply by eliminating the various terrorist groups we are creating more terrorists. As long as democracy and different religions are around, there will be terrorism.

What exactly makes the U.S different from terrorists?

If America fought like these terrorist do there wouldnt be anyone of them left. Whole cites would be wiped of the earth forget insurgants in Iraq there wouldnt be a Iraq.

What do you thik these terrorist would do if the had this type of power. Do you think they would act restrained at all. America could just Level Fallujah in a matter of minutes if they wanted too but they dont.

This topic title makes me sick. I might have a valid claim to my boss that I need higher pay. Should I blow up his house to prove my point? Jesus Christ, people. Go ahead and bend over for these people and see what you get.

OK, instead of flapping my mouth off, I decided to do some research.

Five pillars of Islam:
-The Testimony that there is none worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is his messenger.

-Establishing of the five daily Prayers (Salaah).

-The Giving of Zakaah (charity), which is generally 2.5% of the yearly savings for a rich man working in trade or industry, and 10% or 20% of the produce for agriculturists. This money or produce is distributed among the poor.

-Refraining from eating, drinking and having sex from dawn to dusk in the month of Ramadhaan (Sawm).

-The Pilgrimage (Hajj) to Mecca during the month of Zul Hijjah, which is compulsory once in a lifetime for one who has the ability to do it.

Jihad:

"lesser (outer) jihad"�a military struggle i.e. a holy war
"greater (inner) jihad"�the struggle of personal self-improvement against the self's base desires"
Other actions that are considered jihad (on the basis of hadiths with better isnad) include:

Speaking out against an oppressive ruler (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 37, Number 4330)
Going to Hajj - for women, this is the best form of jihad, (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 595).
Taking care of elderly parents, as the prophet Muhammad ordered a youth to do, instead of joining a military campaign (Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, al-Tirmidhi, and al-Nasa'i).

en.wikipedia.org...

Jihad against non-Muslim countries:
www.memri.org... 03

It seems the current Jihad is about Israel whom the US supports. Israel is seen as an invading force in the Middle East so the religious fanatics attack both the country and its allies.

Islamic law prohibits forced conversion to Islam as opposed to the Inquisition.

Therefore, we have people claiming that Muslim terrorists want to kill everyone not Muslim, which isn't true. They think they are defending themselves and they are prohibited from converting people.

www.memri.org... 03

Islam does not preach towards killing all infidels, that is false. There are interpretations taken too far, but these Muslim extremists are still held in the confines of the other practices. Again, the terrorists believe they are defending themselves and take on offensive and defensive jihad for this reason.

If you want to understand more about the terrorists and jihad instead of just running off your mouths, I suggest you read the links. Though I don't agree with their tactics, they do have valid claims in their mind, it seems this all comes back to Israel and western military installations in the Middle East, which is their turf as they see it. I'll leave it for you to decide whether the US should be there as well as Israel.

[edit on 12-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

heres two cents worth.


1 terrorists use the term (jihad) as an excuse to destroy (infidels)

2 islam uses the term (jihad) in conjunction with the protection of the muslim people from outside forces.(my own un educated take on it)

3 christianity hid behind the term(crusade) to make the biggest and bloodiest land and wealth grabs in the history of the human race.

1 i dont condone the communication skills of modern terrorists(sacrificing innocents to try to get their point across)
this is just my opinion after trying to glean what they want out of the data stream.
little people(terrorists)have gone to the extreme trying to become heroes(martyrs) in their own time.from what ive read of the islamic faith,one book(the haj),it is very strict in application and there is a very thin line between what terrorists do to get their message across and the true meaning of the jihad (my own uneducated opinion).

2 jihad i think means ( holy war), (remember,just my un educated opinion) to protect your own.not to destroy the outside force for gain.

3 crusades were used not to spread the word but to further wealth.cant use religin anymore so politicians and big business hide behind the term democracy to further their own intrests.

before you god fearin christians condemn the (barbarians) of the islamic faith (terrorists not included) look to your own faiths history of destruction(whole civilizations) and death(anyone who wont convert) in the name of god.

im thinking the nation of islam is just living in the wrong area(in the desert where they just happen to be sitting on a pile of money(oil) that everyone wants and big business does not recognize squatters rights) democracy works the same over there as it does here when money(greed) is involved lol.

now im on the fence about the merits of organized religion myself but lets not attack religion because of the radicals.

I can't understand why there are so many assumptions of the aims of these terrorists, like "they want to spread an islamic theocracy across the world" and "kill all the infidels".

You'd have to be stupid if you tried to do that, expecially by blowing up buildings, come on get a grip, who in there right mind would try ad deploy a NWO when they have absolutely no media control, a few rocket launchers, some camels and some people who took flying lessons but only wanted to know how to "steer the plane" not land or take off. It is one of the most stupid things i've ever heard. I wonder why they fly planes into buildings? you'd have to be extremely angry to carry out something like that...

As far as i knew, osama and his cronies just wanted an end to the sanctions on Iraq, that have killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people, and Israel to pull its forces out of Palestinian territory.

Many people might stongly disagree with me here, but i think they are completely legitimate aims, they are crimes against humanity and i hope the people responsible go to hell. But then, anyone who contributes to these actions is responsible right? ie the citizens, its debatable i know, but the terrorists obviously believe that the citizens of america were just as responsible as the persons who made the decision to deploy these actions because they contribute to the economy which funds those actions. I don't totally agree with this idea, but i don't blame them at all, people the world over have suffered for no reason because of the superpowers. Are these aims specific to Islam? hell no, any decent person should be able to see that what Palestine and Iraq have been through is unnacceptable.

Originally posted by flycatch
What are there claims? You and I no what they want, world domination. They have in so many words proclaimed this fact. They bring there death and destruction upon the civilian community because that is were it will have the most impact on our political structure.
Muslims have always been barbarians, thats just there nature.

This is propoganda, spoon fed rhetoric. Maybe they justw ant to be left alone? Do some homework on these 'terrorists', in most cases they are simply opposed to outside interference to their cultures. For example, the Iran Iraq war, did you know that we were selling arms and logistics to Iran at the same time that we were selling Arms and Logistics to Iraq? This is just one example of many. Take Israel for another, who were we to "create" a new hebrew nation in the middle of their most hated enemies territory. What would you think if a bunch of guys came up with guns and told you that you needed to move out of your home cause some ethnic group had lived here before thousands of years ago? We piss these people off, play them against each other, exploit them, play favorites, and then wonder why they turn into radicals. This has been going on in the middle east since teddy rosevelt "to the shores of tripoli". Now as to their methods, no one can honestly condone violence, but when faced by overwhelming military opposition what else are you going to do to get your message across? Let's say you are an Iraqi, you know that the US supported Iran while they supported Iraq, you know that the US wants your huge oil reserves, you have watched economic sanctions starve your children and keep your country in poverty for 14 years, you watch them befriend and put Saddam in power who turns into a ruthless murderer, then you watch them crawfish and accuse him of terror, something the US knew all along when they put the bastard in power to begin with. Now faced with that informationa dn the fact that the US invaded your country under false pretenses, bombed your cities into rubble, and knowing that you can't fight the US military in a head on engagement, what options do you have? You make the loudest bang for your buck that you can and hope it gets the attention of the world. Yes terror is wrong, but sitting there calling islamic people evil evile is a dangerous generalization. What if they think we are evil? They would have just as much reason to believe that as we would of them. Folks, we invaded them. We have a bad habbit of involving ourselves in places like this, and we play dirty. They respond with violence, well of course they do. Reverse the situation and ask yourself what you would do if if Iraq was a superpower and Iraqi Military came over here to remove Bush from power and occupied us with terrible violence, can you honestly say you wouldn't be an "insurgent" yourself? I would. The fact is, most islamic people are no different from ourselves, most of the enemies we face in this life, and in this world, are those we have helped to create. The american indians were savages, the russians were out to get us, the iraqis were going to attack us, the british were subduing us, the french are filthy bastards for opposing our illegal war, when does it end?There is no justification for violence save greed, or power. Period. For those of you who insist that islamic people are violent barbarians, and the righteousness of the western world, wake up, they are people.

Oh yeah and another thing that really drives me nuts...
Who in the sam hell are we to make and stockpile nuclear weapons, biological weapons, and other nastiness, then sit there adn tell the rest of the world that they can't have them. Then, to add insult to injury, we sell them clandestinely as it suits us to nations like israel, india, etc. We went to war with Iraq claiming they had a burning itching desire to attack the US with weapons of mass destruction, GIVE ME A BREAK. That is so far fetched a claim that it isn't even worth commenting on. We knew that Iraq had used chemical weapons before, because the Bush and Reagan Administration still had the reciepts, at least the recipets that didn';t get shreded during Iran Contra when were playing some other poor suckers that needed some democracy in SA. I just wonder who we think we are to dictate the rest of the world as to what they can or can't do? We payt he government to pave the roads and educate our children and if it comes down to it, to defend us against foriegn attack, but who told them to police the rest of the world? We can be the largest exporter of chemical and biological agents in the world, we can be the largest maker of nuclear weapons, have the largest stocklpiles, be the only country to ever use them, threaten to use them at every major conflict, then we can sit here and pronounce to the rest of the world that they can't build them (but they can buy them from us if they have the right people in their governments).