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A question for everyone who has been in the military or is now.

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posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 08:01 PM
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As a former Special operations member/grunt/contractor: I know most wont.. we have brains. Plus they wouldnt be that stupid to order it outright. They would have to come up with a damn good story in order for us to believe it and actually engage, which still most people wouldnt if they were unarmed. Non lethal Force is what we would do...




posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by randomname
the whole iraq war was unlawful, immoral and criminal. yet thousands went, including people on this forum.

i didn't see to many people refuse to go. and the ones that did refuse, went to canada awol and were threatened with jail.

just the fact you went shows where you moral compass is pointing at.

when real penalties and pressure are applied and at stake that's when i'd like to see who would refuse orders.

edit on 31-12-2011 by randomname because: (no reason given)




The first gulf war we went into get Saddam out of kuwait; I just saw a special on national geo about his reign of terror on his own population;

It's good the S.o.b is gone. Maybe the Iraqis can recover and rule themselves without Govt. torture cells and b'ath party "snitch" networks watching and reporting on their neighbors for "anti governmental" activities....



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by Wrekless
 


What would you have done if the ROE were modified though? Just curious. I know my answer to the OP's question though. There's a reason why I left the army. Even though we are trained to identify and belay an illegal order, peer pressure usually won out in every instance that I have personally witnessed. Really sucks being the only one willing to stand up sometimes.
edit on 31/12/2011 by xXxinfidelxXx because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by marsoc
 


Sadly enough, it has been proven time and time again that military leadership consists of very good liars and manipulators. I think if they want civilians fired upon that badly, they would also find an excuse for it, whether legitimate or not.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by boymonkey74
 


My experience is from the 70's and it's, to me, unthinkable that an enlisted man would disobey a direct military order from an officer. The norm is to go ahead and do what they say, then file a complaint later. Anything else would get you shot or imprisoned.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:14 PM
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Yes the laws use to be of that, now if you think its unlawful you can say no at that point



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:34 PM
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reply to post by vogon42
 


Vogon42, I was enlisted....and yes, you are absolutely right, the "enemy" is crystal clear when you consider swearing an oath to defend the constitution....but as we all know, the constitution is being stripped away from us right in front of our eyes.....I have no Idea what "officers" swear to....I'd say its the same??



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by vogon42
reply to post by PROT3CTOR
 


BTW: since you have a military background, I'd be interested in seeing your input on this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

(if you dont mind)


Whoah!! What an experience! First, I must tell you this, I have 4 years army infantry, and 3 years as a jail officer.....so obviously that affects my opinion on that matter/event. First, I'd have called 911 to get the police there asap, all along I'd have been going for my shotgun and ducked back in the house waiting for the police to arrive, if they had came in after me before help arrived......well, self-defense is ones best alternative to getting the snot beat out of them or murdered by thugs. I am NOT an advocate of violence or retribution, I do NOT believe in vengence. Once the threat has been neutralized, move on with life and learn a lesson from the experience. That guy should definitely have moved asap after that happened. And lethal force should ALWAYS be ones LAST resort for self-defense.....but in a case where you have attackers violently busting into your house??.....well, they asked for it! If youre going to risk invading someones home, then you must accept the possible consequences of that action, to your own well being



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by randomname
the whole iraq war was unlawful, immoral and criminal. yet thousands went, including people on this forum.

i didn't see to many people refuse to go. and the ones that did refuse, went to canada awol and were threatened with jail.

just the fact you went shows where you moral compass is pointing at.

when real penalties and pressure are applied and at stake that's when i'd like to see who would refuse orders.

edit on 31-12-2011 by randomname because: (no reason given)


Hey now....I fought in that war.....at the time, neither myself nor my friends knew it was a set-up! But the entire time we were there....we used to ask...why the heck are we here?? and what were we doing?? Now of course, I know the truth, I'm awake and alive....I was blind but now I see!! haha....



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by kawika
We would be in unexplored territory.

I think one of the reasons we have had such a tough time of it in recent years is our guys are very hesitant to fire on someone not wearing a uniform or flying the opposing flag.

Our military people are in because they love the country. The people are the country. No way they would do anything like that.

What might happen though is they bring in a "Foreign Legion" type force of people who are in our military, but not natives. It is not required to be a citizen and they might be able to recruit people who would.


Now THIS I can see happening!!



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 11:51 PM
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reply to post by boymonkey74
 


I spent 13 years in the Navy, after which I was honorably discharged. Your question refers to lawful and unlawful orders. Some unlawful orders are pretty cut and dry. For example, committing murder. If a superior ordered me to shoot unarmed women and children I would consider that an unlawful order. Then there is the grey area, like the case of Army Specialist Michael New. In the early 90's he was ordered to serve on a UN peace keeping force in Macedonia, and he refused because he took an oath to the US Constitution and not the UN Charter. He considered this an unlawful order, while other soldiers did not. I agree with New. What it all comes down to is what YOUR personal moral convictions are. Yours may differ from mine, and what I consider to be lawful or unlawful could differ from what someone else considers to be lawful or unlawful. As far as I'm concerned, if I were ever in a position where I were ordered to open fire on American citizens, for any reason, I would see to it that that order would be the last one that superior ever gave. I think you can read between the lines and figure out what I mean by that.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 03:39 AM
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Have you ever refused a direct order?
Yes. Even "worse", I disobeyed orders in combat (& received Commendations for said actions).

Would you ever refuse a direct order?
Yes. & given "do overs" of the times I disobeyed, I would do so again.

Is there a point (and what point is it?) where you would say "No Iam not doing that"
Yes. I disobeyed because there were ways to accomplish the same thing, with less collateral damage. Given the same orders in the same scenarios again, I would disobey again.

Or would you just follow any order they gave you?
Of course not. And that's what I think the public doesn't really understand.

Yes we are to obey orders; but training, experience, being able to read the situation, gage potential risks & outcomes, & the ability to think on your feet & react appropriately are integral in that obeyance. And that's the difference between a good soldier & a bad soldier, & sometimes the difference between life & death. That is, the ability to make sound decisions based on honor, training & experience - not opinions.

Those who say they'd disobey if an order contradicted their "moral" position, or was "unlawful" in their opinion are largely blowing smoke. Command structure, by definition, doesn't work if everyone does whatever they feel like based on their own opinions. Disobeying orders based on opinion will get you Court Martialed; disobeying based on knowledge & experience, will get you Commendations. There's a big difference between thinking an order is unlawful or violates your Oath & knowing it.

We all take an Oath to support & defend; none took an Oath to violate that Oath if ordered to, or to leave common sense & reason behind. If the military were ordered to fire on unarmed Americans, the vast majority would stand down. But I fear a conflict is coming & it won't be so cut & dried - it'll be gussied up to look like something different.
edit on 1-1-2012 by AtlasShrugging because: danged keyboard can't spell



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 05:04 AM
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reply to post by CaptChaos
 


I get that you don't believe that anyone who chose to serve their country could possibly be honorable, but give it a break. Most of us who have served would never act in such a manner as some of those police officers are acting. In fact, there are quite a few who have stepped up and pointed out to the police just how wrong they are.

Also, if you look at the actual statistics, there aren't as many police who are ex-military as most people seem to believe, but you probably won't believe me on that so you can do a google search just like you told Wrekless, the marine you bad mouthed before you started on me, to do.

boymonkey74, no, I can't give details or I would have in my original post.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by Patriotsrevenge
 


The fact that such a document now exists is truly frightening. Do you know when this was initiated? I began my service in 1981 and was not required to sign any such document is why I ask.

Even if I had I would still have not simply obeyed orders to fire on unarmed civilians, or any civilian unless they showed an immediate threat to myself or others.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 06:10 AM
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Wow thanks for all the post's, I can't single any of you out because you have all taught me something and thank you for that
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If anything you have given us civvies a look into how you are all highly moral people and that's good to know, it give's me better feeling about the furure

Once again Cheers my well armed dudes



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by gamesmaster63
reply to post by CaptChaos
 


I get that you don't believe that anyone who chose to serve their country could possibly be honorable, but give it a break. Most of us who have served would never act in such a manner as some of those police officers are acting. In fact, there are quite a few who have stepped up and pointed out to the police just how wrong they are.

Also, if you look at the actual statistics, there aren't as many police who are ex-military as most people seem to believe, but you probably won't believe me on that so you can do a google search just like you told Wrekless, the marine you bad mouthed before you started on me, to do.

boymonkey74, no, I can't give details or I would have in my original post.



Hey youre exactly right!! I got into law enforcement right after getting discharged from the Army Infantry.....I couldnt believe how most of those guys were acting!! No respect, no honor!! John Wayne wannabe's really.....I lasted 3 years, and that was all I could take!! I was told many times to do things that were disrespectful to the inmates I had charge over. During LE training and Jailors Basic Training, youre told and taught to treat EVERYONE with respect! and to be professional! THEN when you actually get on the job.....youre "RETRAINED" to do the exact opposite, without getting caught!! HA! This is the truth people!! I only knew a "few" good cops!! most were straight dip-wads!! And I was their co-worker saying this!! Dont get me wrong, not all law enforcement is bad.....but dang, most of it is just so plain corrupted!! Not many guys who were trained in the military would be able to conform to the dirt-bag ways of U.S. law enforcement.....This is only my opinion....so dont be hatin' on me



posted on Jan, 3 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by boymonkey74
 

Good question.

Yes i would follow every order given to me by my superior regardless of what they are doing.

When receiving an order you must understand that you have been given a PROCESSED order it has already been through intelligence and they have given the go ahead. Look at how terrorists can blend in. Look at how a normal looking guy or female can be carrying an explosive or weapon. When you get given order you react to it. The only time i would not carry out an order is if i have 100% undeniable proof that they are innocent ie for example.

Giving an order to shoot a terrorist in the process of taking aim the target immediately strips of naked and shows no explosive or no threat i would then inform my superior IF im to again ordered to shoot i would shoot.

Regardless yes i do/would think about my actions however if its in the interest to prolong many lives in the future yes without doubt i would shoot.

Its for an example a unarmed look out is on watch he would be took out without a second thought you have to give a preemptive strike. Sorry if this offends but this is the way i do things. NOT MY PERSONAL PREFERENCES.....



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by ROYALMARINE1987
 


Phew
I was getting a bit worried then

"In my experience CTC turns out morally strong thinking soldiers
Yes i would follow every order given to me by my superior regardless of what they are doing. "

But you Finnish with
"Regardless yes i do/would think about my actions however if its in the interest to prolong many lives in the future yes without doubt i would shoot."

That's quite contradictory dude
Especially when applied to the food riot scenario
The fact your on this web site tells me you don't trust everything your told ( bet you've been there yourself - in your service- seen, done, heard, know about something that's been compleatly hushed up covered over and lied about ? So what else is going on ?)
But knowing the standards of your training I think you may have just put things in a bad context
Just trying to save you from a flaming by some as a product of the killbot factory

On a side note I'm probably dropping into CTC soon ( apparently you've got quite a sexy CQB school going on. ) so might see you in the saville room



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by 46ACE
It's good the S.o.b is gone. Maybe the Iraqis can recover and rule themselves without Govt. torture cells and b'ath party "snitch" networks watching and reporting on their neighbors for "anti governmental" activities....


Hold up a second here, what about the American and British Government torture cells? What about Guantanamo? What about the 'snitch' networks watching and reporting on their neighbours for 'anti-governmental' activities inside America?

Surely by these facts Saddam would have been justified to come and invade us?

BS my friend, utter BS



posted on Jan, 4 2012 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by Neocrusader
[more

Well i cant say much bud but you have an idea



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