A question for everyone who has been in the military or is now.

reply to post by boymonkey74


I have refused direct orders plenty of times and have always been exonerated. Often in a stressful situation, when an order is given on the fly it is a matter of ego.

The My Lai incident comes to mind.

I was a Senior NCO and as such, I believed that every decision I made was putting my rank, life and the lives of others on the line. Believe it or not, I didn’t over think things a whole lot. Just did what I felt was right.

Now if anybody were to fire on my troops, my first concern is my troops, not the people who are firing at me and mine.

At that point in time, I don’t care if their hungry. I care that they are trying to kill me and my guys.

reply to post by boymonkey74


Well, I served in OIF II.....4 years in the Army Infantry, spent time in Kosovo and like I just said, Iraq. To answer your question.....NO WAY!! None of my friends nor myself would EVER do this!! BUT, there are crazies who are in the military who most certainly might! My feeling is this, when martial law is declared, and gangs start killing families, taking over territories, murdering, raping women to display their power and authority, soldiers will get their gear and ammo, and head home to protect THEIR OWN FAMILIES. Martial Law will, mark my words...LEAD TO GANG VIOLENCE, in never before seen ways!! As people begin to lose purchasing power, food becomes scarce and the govt becomes more hated for its oppression.....this will occur!! How do I know, because I know people, I work in the mental health field now and work with the lower income crowd.....trust me, these gang banger thugs will be ruthless once they band together and can work as a unit. Dont make the mistake of underestimating them.....sure, a lot of the gang banger generation is dumbed down, but they are very street smart, ingenuitive and know how to survive.....and lastly, if youre planning on accusing me of judging or profiling by my statements, then you have misunderstood my message. Not everyone who is lower income is like this....im talking about the gang banger society that exist......they are many my friends! But you should be able to count on the countryboy militias to help balance this out

reply to post by TDawgRex


So to answer your questions.....yes, soldiers will disobey direct orders, in fact, soldiers would have to be giving the orders, and I dont see that happening. people in the military are good people for the most part anway. They are not ruthless killers like the media makes them out to be......At least the hunderds of soldiers I know would disobey their orders.....I can only speak of the friends I knew during my enlistment.....they were great patriotic warriors!!

reply to post by PROT3CTOR

Hey Iam not judging anyone here, I have not been in the military and just wanted to get a feel of you military guys and gals out there, (sounds rude but you know what I mean) and by all your posts so far, you have cheered me up because it sounds to me you are all ok and wouldn't just blindly follow orders (ok Iam judging a little but only to expand my mind).
Cheers Military dudes/dudettes you have made my day

Of course I have disobeyed and order (or perhaps more).
My main responsibility is to those I command. These are my troops, and I will NOT let them be needlessly put into harms way.

If someone up the chain of command comes up with a truly bone headed idea, I let the know about it.

I will point out the flaws in their logic, and propose a more sensible course of action.

I have come very close to loosing rank for it, but those stripes I wear are not nearly as important as the troops who put their trust in me.

Fire on unarmed civilians in my own country.....NO WAY.
(unless they were zombies or some far out thing like that)

I am a US Marine and a combat veteran. As an NCO I would not fire on unarmed civilians nor would I order my Marines to. There are men who would but they are a small percentage. Marines hold the highest standards of the armed forces. As others have said, we in the military have a high moral compass and for the most part that is a fact. Many service personel would refuse these kinds of orders. Some units have already refused to fill out questioners about it. (see attached link) I hope it never comes to that but if it does we can count on good military discipline and good leadership to make the right calls at the right time.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by usmc0311


Cheers for the link NCO dude

reply to post by PROT3CTOR


I'm not sure if your response was to me. It seemed to me as a response to the OP.

But the Soldiers I knew through thirty years of my enlistment would never fire upon American citizens…unless they were fired upon first.

I have to say, then it would be game on…and chances are that the citizens would lose.

OK...SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE SET STRAIGHT HERE......I'm not allowed to start a new thread yet becuase I'm still trying to get my 20 responses under my belt...which may take a while! Or else I would've started a new thread with a more focused question. Now, I dont think this thread was properly addressed, due to the vagueness of the question.....I think the question should be: Would there be a scenario that would encourage U.S. Soldiers to fire on civilians?? And I will now answer my "opinion" to this scenario.....First, the enlisted soldiers must know who the enemy is....is it truely civilians, or is it a tyrinical, fascist government making civilian "appear" to be the enemy?? When the SHTF.....civilians ARE GOING TO REVOLT!! This is for certain, based only on something I like to call the theory of "HISTORY"!! History tells us that when once free citizens become aware that they have lost their freedom, they will unite and take their freedom back. BUT, in todays world, there is a catch.....society has been luxuryized with comforts....When the govt takes freedom, there will be many people who simply cling to their "comforts" and turn the other way, simply not caring as long as the govt. takes care of them. These citizens will be considered "law abiding" and praised for it. THEN, there will be the citizens who take up arms and attempt to overthrow the govt, and instill freedom back in its proper place....these citizens will be the "enemy". Now to the point, will U.S. troops, also consider these citizens "enemies" or will they defend the fascist govt, as they are told the revolting citizens are "enemies of the state", and called terrorist?? This is the ultimate question IMHO. I believe the military will split on this matter, some soldiers will follow the revolution, some will follow the fascist govt....hence the term, "Civil War". I believe this is what will evolve very quickly. But dont you think TPTB have already planned out this scenario....cmon! of course they have!! And believe me, there is a plan in place to counter this.....we wont be able to guess it down to the spcecifics, personally, I think it could be, as I've mentioned before in other threads, a released disease outbreak, a manmade earthquake in the New Madrid fault zone, or simply, allowing civil war to take on a life of its own, as this will only help their efforts to depopulate....their are soooo many other possibilities!! Heck, could even be ALL OF THE ABOVE!! Lol Either way you look at, bad times are ahead.....whether the military is for you or against you

To our present and former military folks here. I thank you for your service. This thanks comes from the heart. Your responses reinforce what I have felt about our folks in uniform for a long time.

I've always thought that there would be a few bad apples, there always is, but over all the majority of soldiers would not fire on their civillians without provocation. Good for you. You are as honorable as I believed you to be. Your intelligence is to be admired. War is uglier than the common man can imagine. You all have my respect and thanks.

Originally posted by PROT3CTOR
....First, the enlisted soldiers must know who the enemy is....is it truely civilians, or is it a tyrinical, fascist government. fascist govt.....

Just curious, are you officer, or enlisted? (I ask because I do not know what oath officers swear to..if any)

A thought to ponder here....
Enlisted men (or women) swear an oath to....

"serve and defend the constitution against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC"

MOST troops have the knowledge to understand the oath they swore to defend the people of this country.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.....If I'm given an order that removes these rights from the civilian population.....I will have a problem with that order.

If a man cant stick up to his word, he is not a man. So you bet your butt I will stand up and defend as I swore that oath to do.

reply to post by PROT3CTOR


BTW: since you have a military background, I'd be interested in seeing your input on this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

(if you dont mind)

the whole iraq war was unlawful, immoral and criminal. yet thousands went, including people on this forum.

i didn't see to many people refuse to go. and the ones that did refuse, went to canada awol and were threatened with jail.

just the fact you went shows where you moral compass is pointing at.

when real penalties and pressure are applied and at stake that's when i'd like to see who would refuse orders.

We would be in unexplored territory.

I think one of the reasons we have had such a tough time of it in recent years is our guys are very hesitant to fire on someone not wearing a uniform or flying the opposing flag.

Our military people are in because they love the country. The people are the country. No way they would do anything like that.

What might happen though is they bring in a "Foreign Legion" type force of people who are in our military, but not natives. It is not required to be a citizen and they might be able to recruit people who would.

Originally posted by randomname
the whole iraq war was unlawful, immoral and criminal. yet thousands went, including people on this forum.

i didn't see to many people refuse to go. and the ones that did refuse, went to canada awol and were threatened with jail.

just the fact you went shows where you moral compass is pointing at.

when real penalties and pressure are applied and at stake that's when i'd like to see who would refuse orders.

edit on 31-12-2011 by randomname because: (no reason given)

As former Navy, I know a lot of Americans were still looking for revenge on the Arab dictator type armies in general.

Every service man and woman is required to sign a document that says that they would used deadly force against Americans if so ordered to do so. I signed it, would I do so? No, not unless I knew the so called Americans were shooting at other Americans and way wrong in their actions.

as a veteran and uncle to 5 nieces and nephews who are veterans i would say that you have the wrong idea about military people
most all are veterans because they love their country and feel a duty to defend it
as we come to realization many years later the military does not start war politicians do
so put a bunch of lies in a young mans head and he believes he is doing the right thing in a war unjust or not
the thing is we have a wonderful country with a power hungry corporate influenced government in charge you should worry about them not the military as the soldiers will due what is right when the time comes
do not listen to the media about what our troops are made of as the view is skewed only to the bad apples and then is over dramatized to keep you watching the lies they spew
so no guns no shots but shoot at me or mine better make first one count

I've been selective in some of the orders I've followed. A lot of it to me depends on who is giving the order. If they are cradible than I follow it. Just because an officer issues a direct order doesn't mean I follow it. There are lots of crappy officers that come up with some wild ideas. I can talk to them and try to influence a different idea but in the end I have pledged to follow the orders of the officers appointed over me. So for some of the hairbrained schemes that a few officers will come up with I will sometimes give a half assed effort but I do must best to ensure failure as long as lives aren't at risk. Then I take whatever ass chewing may come of it later. Usually I will add an "I told you so" just to really get the officer riled.

Keep in mind...I have almost thirty years active duty as an enlisted person. I have the experience to weed through some of the crap that comes down and decide for myself what's worth following...many of the young folks don't have that luxary.

Vet here.

Don't be fooled; orders are rarely ignored, lawful or not. The military is a good ole boy network just like any big organization and no one wants to be the one on the outside. Not to mention the fact that most low level servicemen are virtually kids and still believe everything they are told.

There would be the minority that wouldn't comply, but after that first shot, most would start shooting as well.....sad but true.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by PROT3CTOR

 

Hey Iam not judging anyone here, I have not been in the military and just wanted to get a feel of you military guys and gals out there, (sounds rude but you know what I mean) and by all your posts so far, you have cheered me up because it sounds to me you are all ok and wouldn't just blindly follow orders (ok Iam judging a little but only to expand my mind).
Cheers Military dudes/dudettes you have made my day

Sothat covers the active U.S."military": The problem is the govt. is using more and more "civilian contractors" like "Blackwater"( er uh... "ze" ... er..uh "academi") they keep being reorganized under different names).

Mostly ex-military; but they are not sworn to protect the constitution.but "mercs"(hired guns) in the classic sense.
Nato troops from other countries and U.N "peacekeepers" don't count either.
If you are involved in rioting and uniforms arrive Don't go off thinking: "they won't shoot me "my military" wouldn't do that;( they may not be "your military")!!!!!!

And "COG"(i.e.Continuity of Government) seems to trump all lately; If you are raiding a food warehouse holding stores designated for "govt" use your personal welfare will probably come secondary to the Senators aids Getting their daily Mre's.in the bunker.Making you the(hungry) enemy.

reply to post by intelligenthoodlum33


in some ways you are correct but if a seasoned NCO is with the boys the order of a wet behind the ears
officer would get ignored
see thats why lts have a sergeant close by to make sense of the situation
give me a crusty e-7 w/ 25+years of service will make the fresh out of ocs officer understand the reality of the time
someone on here mentioned me lai , as a veteran of that messed up war the shooting innocents was ugly and unnecessary unfortunately the press loves that story so the GI who got skinned by the vc never makes the news
sorry folks but war is ugly and if every single person on this planet were required to serve
maybe just maybe wars would stop