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A question for everyone who has been in the military or is now.

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posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 09:41 AM
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Have you ever refused a direct order?
Would you ever refuse a direct order? Is there a point (and what point is it?) where you would say "No Iam not doing that"
Or would you just follow any order they gave you?

Example SHTF people are rioting at a food depot and your commanding officer says shoot them.This is just an example I want you to think of what point would you say no, make your own examples etc.

Not looking for a fight I respect the people who are more brave than myself by putting their life on the line to keep me safe.
edit on 31-12-2011 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by boymonkey74
 


I see it now. It didn't load when I first opened your thread. Good question. I can't wait to read the replies.
edit on 31-12-2011 by Dorian9 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by Dorian9
 


up now pressed enter by mistake.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 09:57 AM
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Having served in the USMC, I would say no. Absolutely not. I was a member of an EEC team with The 22nd MEU. Trained in non lethal combat and riot control. Rules of engagement state you can not fire unless first fired upon. If there were no firearms discharged by anyone in the riot, then the order would have been unlawful. My CO could have screamed at me all he wants, but I wouldn't have fired.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by boymonkey74
Have you ever refused a direct order?
Would you ever refuse a direct order? Is there a point (and what point is it?) where you would say "No Iam not doing that"
Or would you just follow any order they gave you?

Example SHTF people are rioting at a food depot and your commanding officer says shoot them.This is just an example I want you to think of what point would you say no, make your own examples etc.

Not looking for a fight I respect the people who are more brave than myself by putting their life on the line to keep me safe.
edit on 31-12-2011 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)


Navy veteran here, I will answer your questions in order:

Yes, I have refused three because I considered them unlawful orders, on review of my actions by a Military court, I was found to have made the correct decision all three times. This also answers your second question.

This is not an act any active duty member should do with impunity, it should be carefully considered and a rational decision made to obey or not to obey. I would give more detail, but am not allowed to.

I would never follow an order to violate my oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States.

As the Marine before me stated, in the case of the example you have given, the rules of engagement would prohibit firing upon the rioting crowd, and besides that, there are many better, non-lethal ways to control rioters than a hail of gunfire. You don't use deadly force on unarmed civilians unless a direct, lethal threat is proven.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by Wrekless
Having served in the USMC, I would say no. Absolutely not. I was a member of an EEC team with The 22nd MEU. Trained in non lethal combat and riot control. Rules of engagement state you can not fire unless first fired upon. If there were no firearms discharged by anyone in the riot, then the order would have been unlawful. My CO could have screamed at me all he wants, but I wouldn't have fired.


So you say, yet cops do it every day, most of whom are ex military. Thousands of incidents of shooting teenage girls with cell phones, homeless cripples because they were waving a candy bar at them. I remember one incident in Miami, a 13 year old girl shot dead by 2 cops. Both claiming she was "coming at them" and they were "in fear for their lives". From a 13 year old girl. Huh.

And don't ask for links, you can find thousands of links with a quick Google search.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by gamesmaster63
 

Don't suppose you can give details of the orders you refused?

Good for you as well fella and the dude before you



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by gamesmaster63

Originally posted by boymonkey74
Have you ever refused a direct order?
Would you ever refuse a direct order? Is there a point (and what point is it?) where you would say "No Iam not doing that"
Or would you just follow any order they gave you?

Example SHTF people are rioting at a food depot and your commanding officer says shoot them.This is just an example I want you to think of what point would you say no, make your own examples etc.

Not looking for a fight I respect the people who are more brave than myself by putting their life on the line to keep me safe.
edit on 31-12-2011 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)


Navy veteran here, I will answer your questions in order:

Yes, I have refused three because I considered them unlawful orders, on review of my actions by a Military court, I was found to have made the correct decision all three times. This also answers your second question.

This is not an act any active duty member should do with impunity, it should be carefully considered and a rational decision made to obey or not to obey. I would give more detail, but am not allowed to.

I would never follow an order to violate my oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States.

As the Marine before me stated, in the case of the example you have given, the rules of engagement would prohibit firing upon the rioting crowd, and besides that, there are many better, non-lethal ways to control rioters than a hail of gunfire. You don't use deadly force on unarmed civilians unless a direct, lethal threat is proven.



How about that OWS guy who was shot in the face point blank with a tear gas canister? Direct, lethal threat? I think he is still in a coma.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:26 AM
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Guys please stay on topic this isnt a question I have asked cops, it is a question asked to the Military.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by CaptChaos
 


What are you talking about? So I say what? Those are the Rules of Engagement. Plain and simple. Rules of engagement are subject to change depending on the situation at hand. In a riot w/o gunfire, non lethal tactics are to be deployed. Wow, what a shocker, not everyone follows the rules. There will ALWAYS be that 1% that slip through the cracks. Go ahead and judge an entire group of people based on the actions of VERY few individuals within the group.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by gamesmaster63
 

Don't suppose you can give details of the orders you refused?

Good for you as well fella and the dude before you




I never had to refuse an order as I was never given an unlawful one. Carrying out most orders comes down to common sense. Believe it or not, military personnel are taught to have a high moral compass. But it is up to each individual to apply that morality to any situation. Like I said, some unsavory people slip through the cracks. Its just the reality of the world we live in. There are bad cops, military personnel, judges, doctors and teachers everywhere in the world. It happens.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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reply to post by boymonkey74
 
I've never refused an order but there have been times where I have interpreted the orders given to me perhaps differently than what was intended.




posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Did it work out better or worse than the actual order given?



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by Wrekless
 

Thanks for your post Iam glad people are taught good moral standards in the military.
Cheers fella



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:57 AM
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Yes I have disobeyed orders
No I will not state what why or where
But if ordered to fire on civilians I would have to be there
And that's the sum of it
So this food riot of say 500 people - are they trying to get to the food supply intended for 2000 people 10,000 people ??
When is the death of 500 the lesser of 2 evils ?
So unless in that situation I cannot with any degree of certainty answer your scenario
As much as I'd like to it would be naive of me



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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And second on the high moral compass comment
It is trained into soldiers we are the goodies in simple terms, have regular briefings on the law of armed conflict, practice rules of engagement, and carry out a lot of situation judgemental shoots and training ect
The problem can be the greater good
When a soldier becomes brainwashed from certain influences this affects their judgement of what really is the greater good - and who that greater good is for



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by Neocrusader
 


That was just an example I made up, like I have said in my OP I want you to come up with situations where you would say no.
Excellent 2nd post star for you sir.
edit on 31-12-2011 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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reply to post by boymonkey74
 

Aussie soldiers have their backs covered well. This is their motto and they stick to it.
Honour, Honesty, Courage, Integrity, Loyalty and Mateship

Now there is also one other important word that is not as well known, but it’s in there and that's Initiative.

Initative: The ability to assess and initiate things independently.
The power or opportunity to act or take charge before others do.


And believe me this word is the bee’s knees if you’re going up on charges for not obeying orders.


love and harmony
Whateva



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 11:24 AM
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reply to post by boymonkey74
 


I talked of this with an old school friend who serves in the Royal Marines, I specifically asked him what he and his comrades would do if ordered to capture, torture and/or kill unarmed civilians. His response was that a minority would indeed follow their orders to the letter, but that the majority of his comrades would stick to their oaths and use their own reasoning and morals and refuse to carry out the order if it was too extreme. It makes me feel safer knowing that there are Servicemen that would stand up for what is right, but then again, they have been trained to only understand black and white and ignore the grey.



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by beezzer
 


Did it work out better or worse than the actual order given?


Better.

A commander is not always right. It is our job to make the right decisions so that he appears right.



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