The Sinner's Prayer: What does it mean?

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by pstrron

 

There is no specific punishment written under any of the 10 Commandments.

I agree, the Doctrine of Original sin is pretty strange and unfair.
But it's the reason that everyone is a sinner, no matter what the age.
It's really the reason for the whole rigmarole.
It's Adam and Eve's fault (actually it was mainly Eve, according to generations of Christian men).

No one is born a sinner. Every child is born as Tabula Rasa - a white plate. It is later in his life when it chooses to either do good or evil.

We're born with the nature to sin, the first time we do so we are sinners. That's why it's taught that a child or mentally-ill person isn't at the "age of accountability".

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The "age of accountability" is a new explanation to me.
My Christian friends here believe that infants and the infirm are under their salvation, or the salvation of the parents.
Perhaps it sounds better than sending infants straight to purgatory or the Protestant hell.
I suppose it doesn't do much for infants with unsaved parents.
I don't find any clear verses on this either way.

So if a 5-year-old child has been taught that lying or disrespecting its parents is wrong, and it does lie or throws a tantrum, then is it sinning or not?

A while back a reporter in SA wanted to know from a Gospel singer whether her brother who was in a coma for 11 days from an Aids-related illness could be saved.
There wasn't a real answer, only that one should pray.

I've also asked the same of the Hare Krishnas, who depend heavily on the chanting of their mantra.
But they say that creating a devotional atmosphere will be felt by the spirit of that person, and advance them spiritually by association.

However, from a Christian perspective one sees few verses that clarify the issue.

reply to post by halfoldman


When David's infant son died he said "I will go to him, he will not return to me." And that same David declared that we actually "only sin against God and Him alone." If a child or mentally retarded person has no understanding of the concept of God/sin/good/evil the are blameless before the Lord, much like an animal who also understand none of those concepts.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That's a good answer, at least in theory.
Perhaps it's a better answer for infants than the mentally infirm.
Although even for infants it doesn't actually give an age in the Bible where one is accountable, or not accountable.
The way it sounds from what I've read on this is that if you're 7 you can still sin and go to heaven, but on your 8th birthday you should say the Sinner's Prayer because suddenly you're accountable.
Like alchemy your spiritual state changes from one age to another.

Nowadays we recognize many mental conditions, like depression, which could make people uncaring and indifferent, due to a chemical imbalance.
Where does it start and end, if believing assumes a kind of "mentally healthy" citizen?

And what if somebody is in a coma (like the Aids patient above)?
Is it simply too late for them, and they are judged by their previous sins?
Is there nothing that one could do?

reply to post by halfoldman

Although even for infants it doesn't actually give an age in the Bible where one is accountable, or not accountable.

Because "age" is not meant to mean a set-in-stone period of time. Example: "7 years old and 239 1/2 days." It has to do with mental maturity, understand what one has heard. Oftentimes young people are mature, and likewise oftentimes adults have the minds of children. I see that reality DAILY in my line of work. Grown men with the mental capacity and maturity of children.

So I think you may be looking at the terminology "age" as me saying a specific age, when in reality God judges us based on what we know. "To him who has been given much, much will be required." (paraphrase) Likewise, if a soul has no knowledge/understanding of God then nothing is required of them.

I don't recall exactly, but believe the Rabbinical tradition is around 5-7 years old, and would certainly be much different for someone who was mentally retarded. I do know one thing as fact, God is just, Holy, and righteous. His judgments thus reflect His nature.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That's a bit like assuming that children are born with a blank slate.

But to major streams in Christian theology we are already born contaminated with the sin of Adam and Eve.
Hence we can never be good enough before God by our own endeavors; but only via Christ.

That is a major influence on the sinner's prayer.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

That's a bit like assuming that children are born with a blank slate.

But to major streams in Christian theology we are already born contaminated with the sin of Adam and Eve.
Hence we can never be good enough before God by our own endeavors; but only via Christ.

That is a major influence on the sinner's prayer.

Christian theology says we are born with the nature to sin. We're born sinners by nature. When we commit that first sin against the Lord, then we are a sinner by commission.

Not so, the curse of sin and death is in our line from Adam and Eve, and we are born sinners.

I suppose we could go back and forth, because we seem to come from different theologies.

Originally posted by halfoldman
Not so, the curse of sin and death is in our line from Adam and Eve, and we are born sinners.

I suppose we could go back and forth, because we seem to come from different theologies.

That's not what the Bible teaches. It teaches we are born with the nature to sin from Adam. We cannot be a sinner until we sin the first time. A person isn't an arsonist until they light something on fire belonging to someone else. I'm born with the nature to lie as a son of Adam, I'm not a liar until I tell my first lie, et cetra, et cetra.

Edit: So what theological background do you come from where they teach infants and retarded people who have no capacity whatsoever to understand all go to hell if they die?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Well, that's debatable, and many Christians have felt it is exactly what the Bible teaches.

Original sin is inherited from Adam:

(1) The sin of Adam has injured the human race at least in the sense that it has introduced death — "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men".

www.newadvent.org...

The doctrine of original sin passed directly from the Catholics to Luther, who took an even stronger stance on the matter.
To many early Protestants "original sin" was not just an inherited spiritual condition of the unbaptized, but they additionally thought that it corrupted the mental faculties of humans.

At least the Catholics maintained that it was a spiritual matter.

reply to post by halfoldman


Missed a Q:

Edit: So what theological background do you come from where they teach infants and retarded people who have no capacity whatsoever to understand all go to hell if they die?

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men"

I agree to the above verse. But that verse doesn't say Adam's sins transferred to Cain and Abel, that says Cain and Abel inherited a sinful nature from Adam.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Good point.

But you see it's not really something they make a point of telling people, or they have word-games around it.

They will baptize infants or disabled people, and it seems the first Christians actually baptized people straight after conversion (baptism was the conversion at the time).

Some Catholics might say infants will go to purgatory for a while, rather than hell.

But what theology would send an older child to hell?
So after a birthday at some random age one can go to hell for lying?
Is it more palatable to send a 10 or 13-year-old to hell?
It really doesn't sound much better.