It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

God cannot love or be Love.

page: 5
1
<< 2  3  4    6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 10:47 AM
link   
I believe we are all immortal. I got this idea from reading william walker atkinsons books. If your interested i could point out some of these books if you would like to study them. They are very logical, and harmonize religion and science.




edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:36 PM
link   
reply to post by MoeSantana
 

All religions pertain to the same God, just thier own version of it.

Paul said there are gods many and many lords and different spirits.
Any sort of universalism (as in: all worship to "god" by default gets to and is acknowledged by the "one" god) is outside Jewish and the original Christian thought.

edit on 25-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:43 PM
link   
reply to post by MoeSantana
 

I believe we are all immortal.

I know we are not and I had to die twice to get that completely straight in my mind.
God can raise us from the dead and also save us from Hell and I know that through the same thing I just mentioned, which is personal experience which was at the same time a learning tool as it was necessary considering the circumstances.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:54 PM
link   
Any worship to the creator gos to the creator no matter what you call him. Any worship to any other being for any reason is indirectley worship to the creator as it created them. Also have you forgot that judaism and christianity are monotheistic and not polytheistic?

I cant argue with you claiming your personal experience, but if I claimed I was concious of immortality you couldnt argue with me either.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:22 PM
link   
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Yet Biblical Scripture clearly states "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but shall have eternal life." I do believe this Scripture states that God can in fact love so therefore your conclusion is wrong if you base your conclusion entirely on Biblical Scripture. That's the funny thing about Scripture either you accept it all as Truth or you don't but there really isnt any picking and choosing which ones you like or dont like or which ones suit you to prove your point.

Christianity isn't founded on human sacrifice. Jesus had a choice just as Adam and Eve did and they made their choices. Jesus chose to love and forgive and to die so that we could be redeemed. Perhaps God created man to make choices --- to choose to love Him and each other. Perhaps that was and has been the plan all along. We cannot know the mind of God. All we can do is speculate. From what I have observed that seems to be the track record for most of your threads --- speculation. Truth is truth, it is neither right nor wrong nor good nor evil. Truth just is and it is something you have failed to produce just wild speculation.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:26 PM
link   
reply to post by I Want To Believe
 



That's the funny thing about Scripture either you accept it all as Truth or you don't but there really isnt any picking and choosing which ones you like or dont like or which ones suit you to prove your point.


Pardon me if i correct you my friend...

You actually meant "thats the funny thing about some sects of Christianity"...

Not all scripture is truth... not everything in the bible is truth... There is some scripture that falls outside off the bible that is also truth...

The only ones that arn't allowed to pick and choose from the bible are those within the confinds of their own religion...




posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 02:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by MoeSantana
 

All religions pertain to the same God, just thier own version of it.

Paul said there are gods many and many lords and different spirits.
Any sort of universalism (as in: all worship to "god" by default gets to and is acknowledged by the "one" god) is outside Jewish and the original Christian thought.

edit on 25-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


Well in some verses, it acknowledges that there are NO OTHER GODS, so Paul was wrong according to these verses:

Isaiah 45:22 - “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,"

Isaiah 45:21 - "Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me."

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god."



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 02:50 PM
link   
reply to post by MoeSantana
 

Any worship to the creator gos to the creator no matter what you call him.
You are just burning a hole in your consciousness but it gets no further since it was never an entity in the strictest sense to start with and is definitely not now. The point being, there has to be such a thing, otherwise the entire theory fails. We can look at creation and realize there had to be some sort of thought involved it its coming about but that thought has expended itself in what is visible being there and us being here to observe it.
There is no "person" (meaning, a creator entity) sitting on a throne and in a reception hall to receive the bringers of offerings for presentation at the foot of the high pedestal, there is only a face-less unknowable void and any worship goes into nothingness.
God is spirit which resides in a vast material universe and has no temple on solid ground and we as the physical dwellers on planes of earth are the receptacles and dwelling places, 'in my father's house there are many mansions' so true worship is service to our fellow knowers and representatives of God with us.
edit on 25-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:03 PM
link   
reply to post by arpgme
 

Well in some verses, it acknowledges that there are NO OTHER GODS, so Paul was wrong according to these verses:
It's all in how you understand what these writers are saying, whether they be OT or NT, the point they are making is there is only one god who can save you, so only one God who you should worship.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:50 PM
link   
I dont believe God desires praise, I was just trying to answer your twisted questions. As for 'OP' read this about born again christianity, and make up your mind about God and love. Second paragraph shows born again christians savage belief, while first paragraph shows alternative. Third paragraph please read.

On the one hand we have Jesus the God-Man deliberately choosing the work of the World Redemption and
Salvation, and descending into the circle of the World-Karma, relinquishing the privilege of His Godhood and
taking upon Himself the penalties of Manhood; not only undergoing the sufferings of the physical man, but
also binding Himself upon the Cross of Humanity for ages, that by His spiritual presence in and of the race He
might lift up humanity to godhood.

On the other hand, we have a picture of an angry Deity, manifesting purely human emotion and temper, bent
on revenging himself upon the race which he had created, and demanding its eternal punishment in hell-fire;
then the same Deity creating a Son whom he sent into the world, that this Son might be the victim of a blood-atonement and death upon the cross, that the Deity's wrath might be appeased and the blood of this
Divine Lamb be accepted to wash out the sins of the world.

He told them that the real work of His followers was the sowing of the seed of the Truth, without regard to
immediate results. He told them that the real fruition would not come for many centuries--yea, not until the
passing of over two thousand years or more. He told them that the passage of the centuries would be like the
preparing of the soil for the great work of the Truth, and that afar in the distance would be the real fruit
season.
He taught them regarding the Second Coming of Christ, when the real Truth of His teachings should become
apparent to mankind and the true Life of the Spirit should be lived by the race. He taught them that their work
was to keep alight the Flame of the Spirit and to pass it on to worthy followers.
This and many other things He told them, before He passed on.
And the mystics teach that He still lives in the world, diffused among all the living souls on earth, striving
ever to lead them to a recognition of the Real Self--the Spirit Within. He is with us ever as an Abiding Spirit,
a Comforter, a Helper, an Elder Brother.
He is not gone from us! He is here with us now and forever, in Actual Spirit Communion!
The Lord hath indeed Risen--Risen from Mortal Form to Immortal Spiritual Existence!

Maybe these quotes will convince you to read www.consciouslivingfoundation.org... If not feel free to rebutt and ill bomb you with a few more quotes.
edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:57 PM
link   
heres some more

Can you not see which is The Truth and which is the perversion? The one is from the pure fountain of
Spiritual knowledge--the other originated in the minds of ignorant theologians who were unable to grasp and
understand the Mystic teachings, but who built up a system of theology in accordance with their own
undeveloped minds; making a God who was but a reflection of their own cruel animal natures, demanding, as
did they themselves, blood and pain--physical torture and death--in order to appease a most un-Divine wrath
and vengeance. Which of the two conceptions seems most in accord with the intuitive promptings of the
Something Within? Which brings the greater approval from The Christ within your heart?

But even a God, such as he, could not raise up the world from its burden of Karma, by acting from the outside.
Under the Cosmic Laws, established by the Absolute, such work could be performed only from within the
circle of earth-life. And so Jesus saw that to raise up Man, He must become a Man. That is, to help lift the
earth's Karma, He must enter into it, and place Himself within its Circle of Influence. And this He did.
We wonder if our readers can realize, even faintly, just what this sacrifice meant? Think of a Pure Spirit--a
Free Soul--so filled with the love for the race of men as to renounce deliberately, for aeons of time, total
immunity from all mortal existence, and willingly to place itself under the burden of pain, woe, misery and sin
which formed the earth-people's Karma. It was a thousand-fold greater sacrifice than would be that of a Man
of the Highest spiritual and mental development--an Emerson, for example--who, in order to raise up the race
of earth-worms, would deliberately place himself within the being and nature of the Group-Soul animating the
race of earthworms, and then stay within its influence, striving ever upward and onward until finally, after
aeons and aeons of time, he was able to bring up the earthworm Group Soul to the level of Man. Think of this,
and then realize what a sacrifice Jesus made of Himself.

In the Wilderness, when Jesus took the final steps of renunciation and sacrifice, He at once passed within the
circle of the Race Karma and laid Himself open to all the pain, misery, temptations and limitations of a Man.
His power, of course, remained with Him, but He was no longer a God outside of the world-life, but an
imprisoned God working from within the race, using His mighty power, but bound by the Karmic Law. He
became open to influences from which previously He had been immune. For instance when He was "tempted"
by the Devil of Personal Attainment, and urged to seek worldly glory and renown, He was tempted only
because He had taken on the world's Karma and was subject to its laws. As a God, He would not have felt the
temptation any more than a man would feel the temptation of the earthworm. But as a man He was subject to
the desires and ambitions that perplex and "devil" the race. And according to the rule that the greater the
mental development the greater the power of such temptation toward self-aggrandizement (because of the
mind being able to see more clearly the opportunities), Jesus was subjected to a test that would have been
impossible to an ordinary man.
Jesus, knowing full well that He had in His possession the power to manifest the things with which He was
tempted, was compelled to fight off the temptation to place Himself at the head of the race as its ruler--as the
King of the World. He was shown this picture to compare with the other whose last scene was Calvary--and
He was called upon to feel the desire of the race for such things, even unto its highest degree. Imagine the
desire for personal aggrandizement of all the world thought beating upon His mind demanding the expression
which could be had through Him alone. And then imagine the struggle required to defeat this opposing power.
Think of what the ordinary man has to meet and overcome to conquer the desire for Personal
Aggrandizement--and then think of what the Master had to fight, with the focussed desire of the entire
Race-Thought striving to express itself through Him! Truly the Sins of the World bore down upon Him with
their mighty weight. And yet He knew that He had taken upon Himself this affliction by entering upon the
Life of Man. And He met it like a Man of Men.

For know ye, that Jesus the Christ is still within the race of men, suffering their woes, paying with them their
penalty, every day, every hour--yea, and must remain so throughout the ages, until finally the soul of every
man, yea, even that of the last man; the most degraded man in the world, is fully cleansed of the Karmic taint,
and thus fully "redeemed" and "saved." And within the soul of every man is found the Christ Principle,
striving ever to elevate and lift up the individual toward that realization of the Real Self--and this is what
"redemption" and "salvation" really means. Not a saving from hell-fire,



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:58 PM
link   
Not a saving from hell-fire, but a saving from the fire of carnality,
and mortality. Not a redemption from imaginary sins, but a redemption from the muck and mire of earth-life.
The God within you is like the fabled Hindu god who descended into the body of a pig and then forgot
Himself. It is to bring you to a realization that you are a god and not a pig, that Jesus, the Master, is working
within your soul as the Christ Principle. Have you never heard His voice, crying from within your soul,
"Come out--come out of your pig-nature and realize the god that you verily are!" It is this "recognition,
realization and manifestation of the god within you" that constitutes "salvation" and "redemption."
The Occult Teachings tell us that Jesus, after His final disappearance from before the eyes of His apostles,
passed on to the higher planes of the Astral World where He rapidly discarded all of His astral and mental
vehicles which the soul had used in its manifestation. The Astral Body and its corresponding higher sheaths
were cast off and discarded. That is, all except the very highest of all. Had He discarded every vestige of
individual soul-existence His spirit would have immediately merged itself with the One Spirit--the
Absolute--from which it had originally proceeded and Jesus, as an entity, would have disappeared entirely
within the Ocean of the One Spirit. This highest state of all He had deliberately resigned until the passage of
ages, in order that He might accomplish His work as the World-Savior.

This wonderful sacrifice of Christ far surpasses the physical sacrifice of Jesus, the man. Try to imagine, if you
can, even the faintest pangs of a being so exalted compelled to dwell in the world of the hearts and minds of a
humanity so steeped in materiality as our race, knowing always the possibilities of the souls if they would but
reach upward to higher things, and yet constantly suffering the knowledge of the base, carnal, material
thoughts and acts flowing from these souls. Is not this the extreme refinement of torture? Does not the agony
of the cross sink into insignificance beside such spiritual agony? You rail at the cruelty of the Jews who
crucified their Savior, and yet you crucify your Savior, with a thousandfold degree of torture, every day of
your life, by your persistence in the carnalities and foolishness of mortal thought and action.
The mighty uplift of the world since the death of Jesus, of which the present is but a faint prophecy of the
future, has been due largely to the energizing influence of The Christ in the hearts and minds of the race. The
sense of the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man, which is now manifesting so powerfully in the
world of Men, is but an instance of the work of the Christ--the Savior and Redeemer. And the highest dreams
of the exalted souls of this generation are but inadequate visions of what the future will hold for the race. The
work is just beginning to bud--the blossom and the fruit will render this earth a far more glorious place than
even the highest ideals of heaven entertained by the faithful in the past. But even these things of the future
will be poor things, when compared with the life of the higher planes which await the race when it has
demonstrated its fitness to pass on and on and on to these greater glories. And ever and ever The Christ is
working, and toiling and striving and suffering, in His efforts to raise humanity even one petty degree in the
spiritual scale of being.
The Christ is always with us, and if we but recognize His presence we shall be able to feel that warm, loving
response to our soul-hunger and spiritual thirst which will result in our being given that we are so longingly
craving. Here within us dwells The Christ, ever responding to the cry of Faith, "Believe in Me and ye shall be
saved." What a promise this is seen to be when properly understood! What a source of power and comfort is
opened up to every human soul when the Inner Truth underlying the teachings is understood! Mystic
Christianity brings this Message of Truth to each and all of you who read these lines. Will you accept it?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:59 PM
link   
Read it all and see how pathetic the christian church has become, and what a shadow of its former self it is.
I dont want to offend anyone, and im sorry if I come across as rude and for clogging up your forum, but just read it. I went to a catholic school when i was a kid and wasnt satisfied with what I heard and started a search for something. Eventually I came across what I was looking for. I know its hard to change your mind about your religion, but doesnt born again christianity seem so empty compared to the above? Please give it a chance
edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:10 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 


Let me clarify my statement then. What I was trying to communicate was that since the OP is quoting the Bible and using it to attack God and because the whole premise of his argument is founded on Biblical Scriptures and the correlations between them then he therefore cannot pick and choose the Scriptures he likes since the Bible clearly states that it is in fact the written Word of God and is therefore truthful and infallible. See 2 Timothy 3:16 for reference. In this way the fact that the Bible also clearly states that God is love and that He loved the world directly proves that the OP is wrong if you are to believe Biblical Scripture. Hence why I said what I said about the 'picking and choosing of Scripture'.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:19 PM
link   
Here is Jesus' sermon to his hometown of Nazareth, this applies to all you theological hairsplitters

He read the text from Isaiah, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me
because He hath anointed me to preach the good tidings," etc. Then He began his exposition of the text He
had just read.
But instead of the expected customary words and illustrations--technical theological hair-splitting and dreary
platitudes--He began to preach in a manner unknown to the Nazarenes. His opening sentence broke the silence
and greatly startled and disturbed the congregation. "This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears," were his
opening words. And then He began a statement of His conception of His ministry and His Message. Thrusting
aside all precedent and musty authority, He boldly proclaimed that He had come to establish a new conception
of the Truth--a conception that would overturn the priestly policy of formalism and lack of spirituality--a
conception that would ignore forms and ceremonies, and cleave close to the spirit of the Sacred Teachings.
And then He began a scathing denunciation of the lack of spiritual advancement among the Jewish
people--their materialism and desire for physical enjoyments and their drifting away from the highest ideals of
the race. He preached the mystic doctrine, and insisted that they be applied to the problems of every-day life
and conduct. He brought down the teachings of the Kaballah from the cloudy heights, and set them before the
people in plain, practical form. He bade them aspire to great spiritual heights, forsaking the base ideals to
which they had clung. He ran counter to every custom and prejudice of the people before Him, and showed a
lack of reverence for all of their petty forms and traditions. He bade them leave the illusions of material life
and follow the Light of the Spirit wherever it might lead them. These and many other things told He them.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:26 PM
link   
reply to post by I Want To Believe
 


I think the OP author is asking you how you would justify these apparent inconsistencies.
Your solution is a form of picking and choosing by emphasizing a verse which you like and downplaying ones you don't. So the whole thread, and a lot of others by him is this exercise to make people see that they are doing exactly what they accuse others of.
edit on 25-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:57 PM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I'm just following the OPs logic. Playing his game if you will. I do not have the answers he is looking for and anyone who says they do is only fooling themselves. The OP says definitively that God cannot love or be love and yet he uses BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE as the basis for his argument. So far all he has provided as proof for his wild unsubstantiated claims are his own interpretations of biblical scripture. I have read many of the OPs previous threads and it has become quite apparent that he has a very bad case of God-hating. I was hoping for a civilized, rational and logical coversation but all I've seen in response is a lot of God-hating rhetoric. Why can't we just discuss things as intelligent adults? I try to be respectful of other peoples religious beliefs and faiths, all I would ask in return is the same courtesy.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 05:21 PM
link   

Originally posted by I Want To Believe
reply to post by Akragon
 


Let me clarify my statement then. What I was trying to communicate was that since the OP is quoting the Bible and using it to attack God and because the whole premise of his argument is founded on Biblical Scriptures and the correlations between them then he therefore cannot pick and choose the Scriptures he likes since the Bible clearly states that it is in fact the written Word of God and is therefore truthful and infallible. See 2 Timothy 3:16 for reference. In this way the fact that the Bible also clearly states that God is love and that He loved the world directly proves that the OP is wrong if you are to believe Biblical Scripture. Hence why I said what I said about the 'picking and choosing of Scripture'.



I won't deny that there are passages that say "God is love"... though i would disagree to an extent... Love is the strongest aspect of God... its what brings us to him.

And yes the bible says "all scripture is the written word of God" but unfortunatly its paul that said that... And he is incorrect my friend.... He has a tendency to miss the mark...

IF the book was the written word of God, there would be no errors within its pages... and sadly there are many errors both factual and logical...

this...

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

is an incorrect statement... there is truth within this statement but its not entirely true...

And the bible is NOT infallible... of that issue you are mistaken.




posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 05:37 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 


I agree Akragon. People misunderstand.

The Bible is the INSPIRED word of God, not the WRITTEN word of God. Man wrote it done and man makes mistakes and sometimes even when being inspired their selfish nature can get in the way of that inspiration...

jmdewey60, those Bible verses says that there is only ONE God and the others are non-existent and when they pray they only pray to ONE God. If you still want to believe that there are others that is your choice in belief.


edit on 25-1-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 05:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by I Want To Believe
reply to post by Akragon
 


Let me clarify my statement then. What I was trying to communicate was that since the OP is quoting the Bible and using it to attack God and because the whole premise of his argument is founded on Biblical Scriptures and the correlations between them then he therefore cannot pick and choose the Scriptures he likes since the Bible clearly states that it is in fact the written Word of God and is therefore truthful and infallible. See 2 Timothy 3:16 for reference. In this way the fact that the Bible also clearly states that God is love and that He loved the world directly proves that the OP is wrong if you are to believe Biblical Scripture. Hence why I said what I said about the 'picking and choosing of Scripture'.



I won't deny that there are passages that say "God is love"... though i would disagree to an extent... Love is the strongest aspect of God... its what brings us to him.

And yes the bible says "all scripture is the written word of God" but unfortunatly its paul that said that... And he is incorrect my friend.... He has a tendency to miss the mark...

IF the book was the written word of God, there would be no errors within its pages... and sadly there are many errors both factual and logical...

this...

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

is an incorrect statement... there is truth within this statement but its not entirely true...

And the bible is NOT infallible... of that issue you are mistaken.



Oh I'm not stating my own personal views but rather the typical Biblical view since that seems to be the premise of the OPs argument. I disagree with a lot of things in Scripture such as stoning disobedient, rebellious children and women not being permitted to speak in church and wives being always submissive to their husbands. I am a Christian insomuch as I follow the teachings of Christ and spread His message of Love and Forgiveness but I always defer to my conscience for my church is my conscience. I am by nature a very skeptical person as my username would suggest and I hardly take things by blind faith. However the teachings of Christ to me seem good and right which is why I am a believer.



new topics

top topics



 
1
<< 2  3  4    6 >>

log in

join