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Priests brawl in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity

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posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:55 PM
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Brawl? Hissy-fit, maybe; but not a brawl.

They need a full-contact sport-- every year they could play each other in the Nativity Bowl-- winner gets to sweep the whole church for all twelve days of Christmas. But, from what I saw, I bet they all throw like girls.




posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:15 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


Wow, I've always liked your posts and gotten a good feeling from them and this one really stopped me in my tracks and made me think. I thought back to all the friends who have supported me through life all these years. Many are Christian, but my brethren have included Atheists, agnostics, wiccans, Muslims, Jews, and people of the many varied eastern faiths and philosophies, since some of my family is from Asia. If sharing support, encouragement, love and friendship isn't fellowship with my brethren I don't know what is. I can't believe I have still been stuck in the trap of thinking fellowship meant only what my old church told me it was. I forgot to listen to what Jesus himself said about fellowship and our brethren. Thanks for reminding me. I guess this counts a fellowship, too...one person helping another recover from a stumble.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:30 PM
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reply to post by trustnothing
 





"No one was arrested because all those involved were men of God," he said


Because they are christians they wouldn't press charges against eachother. I am surprised the fight happened at all because Jesus told us to submit to one another. If anything i would have thought the fight would have broken out over the 2 because of their insistence to have the other take a break. Greek Orthodox are like the christian equivalent of the jewish priesthood.

Its just one of those things where you just have smile sideways at while you walk on.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:37 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


I'm confused Colbe about the heresies. I know there is a danger in New Age ideas that we make all religions equivalent. Christians are supposed to pay attention and acknowledge that Jesus does say that he is the way, the truth and the life and that no man come to the Father but by him.

But Protestants believe that, so where is the heresy? And when I am inclusive of my non Christian friend's who give me love and support when so called Christians turned their backs because of things like my Sunday clothes weren't nice enough or my mom couldn't afford as big of a tithe or whatever, where is the heresy? I thought Jesus told us we were not to set stumbling blocks before one another as we all struggle to follow his example of loving one another as we love ourselves. So is it that big of a deal if some of us are confused over whether the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Christ or symbolic? If we let that separate us and think one of us is better because of one choice about one bit of doctrine, isn't that setting the stumbling blocks before one another that Jesus warned us not to?

I'm kind of thinking it's when a person can get to the point he understands who we all are and what we all mean to our creator that we can pray for even the most heinous among us to find this great love and salvation, too, that we will be finding the great way and truth and life that Christ says is him. He did live and teach and die and rise for everybody. He set the perfect example and as straightforward as he made it look, I don't really know anybody including myself who can really get to the point Christ was at when he suffered and died for us all.

Sorry, I know my post is not very clear. I wish I were a better writer. I know people can make mincemeat out of this post. It just is what it is. That's the best I can do.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:46 PM
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sorry I can't scroll on my IPad to edit my bad writing. What I meant to say is I don't know anybody including myself who can get to the point Christ was at in terms of loving even the people who were torturing him to death and whom he knew would do the same thing to his friends. He endured all that so that if even one of those people who were killing him were to awaken to his message, they would not endure the death of their soul. I'm not even close to loving my fellow man enough to the point I can make myself pray that the monsters who hurt kids will find salvation in Christ before they die. I want to shove pitchforks on their eyes, and yet my savior who told me to follow his example as he is the way, the truth and the life can let his own self be tortured to save wretched people like that. I don't even have to die for anybody. I just have to find enough love in my heart to pray for the wretched evil people in the world to awaken enough to seek salvation from the only one whose death means enough to save them. And I have to remind myself I'm not without sin, either and stop holding myself above anybody else. I have a long way to go. I hope I live long enough to get there.
edit on 28-12-2011 by SheeplFlavoredAgain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 29 2011 @ 04:23 AM
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Originally posted by SheeplFlavoredAgain
reply to post by colbe
 


I'm confused Colbe about the heresies. I know there is a danger in New Age ideas that we make all religions equivalent. Christians are supposed to pay attention and acknowledge that Jesus does say that he is the way, the truth and the life and that no man come to the Father but by him.

But Protestants believe that, so where is the heresy? And when I am inclusive of my non Christian friend's who give me love and support when so called Christians turned their backs because of things like my Sunday clothes weren't nice enough or my mom couldn't afford as big of a tithe or whatever, where is the heresy? I thought Jesus told us we were not to set stumbling blocks before one another as we all struggle to follow his example of loving one another as we love ourselves. So is it that big of a deal if some of us are confused over whether the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Christ or symbolic? If we let that separate us and think one of us is better because of one choice about one bit of doctrine, isn't that setting the stumbling blocks before one another that Jesus warned us not to?

I'm kind of thinking it's when a person can get to the point he understands who we all are and what we all mean to our creator that we can pray for even the most heinous among us to find this great love and salvation, too, that we will be finding the great way and truth and life that Christ says is him. He did live and teach and die and rise for everybody. He set the perfect example and as straightforward as he made it look, I don't really know anybody including myself who can really get to the point Christ was at when he suffered and died for us all.

Sorry, I know my post is not very clear. I wish I were a better writer. I know people can make mincemeat out of this post. It just is what it is. That's the best I can do.


Thanks so much SheepFA,

I appreciate, thank you, when it's not personal but a sincere question.

It worries me, all the anti-Catholic belief. It's like what's coming you can't explain correctly to change anyone's heart. It's been prophesied for as long as I have had a devotion to the messages from Heaven. Heaven
has always said "soon", well divine events have to be close. It's been 13 years! And look how evil and anti-God the world is getting by the day.

There are differences in belief, Protestant vs Catholic because in 1517 at the split, a group said no to the authority of the Church and came up with new teachings to distance themselves from the Church. These teachings are not from God, they are heresy.

There are a number of them but to me the most important would be about
the summit, the pinnacle of Catholicism. It is the Eucharist. Jesus says in the messages from Heaven. If you deny the Eucharist, don't receive the Real Presence, you remain a Baby Christian. Everyone...in the world...needs the "grace", God Himself in the Eucharist.

Back to now and soon to happen. It's prophesied during the Great Tribulation, the anti-Christ will take over the Church and with the help of the false prophet, a false pope change the sacrifice which means change the Mass, actually change the words of consecration and there will be no Eucharist! It scares me, those who reject the Eucharist now, won't they believe it a good thing? Will they fall for the anti-Christ's lie?

God is going to save the day, ahead of time. Before the above events,
God is going to send a divine warning, a revelation for all souls on the
earth to know, that the Eucharist is true, the RCC is the true faith. No one
knows every moment of your life but God. We will see our life as God
sees it in a mini-judgment, a life review like the NDEs. I still worry, no
one looks at prophecy. Prophecy says many will deny, call what they
just experienced, an illusion and not from God! They are going to fall, thinking the Great Warning and the true faith are the deception!!

What can I say, prophecy is a help. Look toward Christ, believe it is
God's plan, Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist. No matter what happens between now and the new time, the Millennium, God doesn't change. Believe what Heaven says is going to happen. God wants everyone to be Catholic, it is the true faith.

Do you see why I persist. Many non-Catholic Christians already believe the RCC is the whore of Babylon, straight from Satan! In Peter's time,
as leader of the Church, Rome was persecuting Christians, Rome
was given a code name Babylon. In our time, from prophecy, Jesus states
"Babylon" is the entire "sinful" world. I keep thinking..."they believe the
lie or another, is this the "deception" spoken of in Scripture." What's going to happen to them?

Keep this on your heart, be one who desires the Eucharist, no matter
your present belief.


colbe



posted on Dec, 29 2011 @ 02:33 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


Thank you for your reply, Colbe. Yes my question was very sincere, that's the kind I ask. I don't ask questions to cause strife or start fights. I am a Protestant but am married to a Catholic. I DO believe Christ is present in the Eucharist. Some Protestants do have that belief. I think a Lutheran friend of mine said her church teaches that. I was obviously not taught this belief. My church taught it was symbolic. I came to the belief on my own, call it a revelation, I suppose. For many personal reasons of a similar nature, I do have faith, again verified to me through personal revelation, that Catholics and Protestants alike ascend to an afterlife. So I don't think at least as things have been going, that the division of belief over the nature of the Eucharist has not necessarily guaranteed salvation nor precluded it. But Biblical prophecy of things to come is another matter and there may very well be a cosmic throw down coming down the lane where what we believe on this issue will make a difference. We have been warned there will be an event that will be such a convincing deception that it could deceive the very elect.

Honestly it's particularly the reason I am reluctant to cast my allegiance with any organized church. I'm far from elect. I'm only just modestly above average IQ and not especially well educated though I do have a college degree. I do know that won't count against me and I can still avoid being deceived if I hold fast to my faith and lean not on my own understanding and walk in the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

My problem, and I kind of believe this is why the world seems more violent and vile via media, entertainment and actual events, is that I'm always irritated and angry with my fellow man so I'm not walking that humble, loving path that enables a clear mind and clean soul. There is always so much noise between me and the voice of the Holy Spirit. As you know the Spirit does not force itself on us, which is why we are told to ask and to seek, with the humility and sincerity of children. I do believe there are forces at work to ensure our society remains a difficult place in which to foster the necessary humble sincere mindset to achieve spiritual clarity. These days everything seems almost guaranteed to foster divisiveness, irritation and anger. I don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to see how we are constantly pitted against one another, men vs. women, young vs. old, denomination against denomination, religion against religion, race against race and on and on.

I think this Church in Bethlehem is victim to that, most definitely. I can't see how they can possibly be humble, sincere and have the necessary attitude with which to make the necessary spiritual inquiries required of our Christian path if they are fighting turf wars and letting the building fall to ruin. The state of the unfortunate building is definitely mirroring the spiritual shambles within. It does prove church is not a building but the souls of the people occupying it. At this point posterity would be better served turning the building into a museum and turning those idiots out to find the true meaning of church without ruining a treasured relic of history.



posted on Dec, 30 2011 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain
 


Hi SheeplFavoredAgain,

I am not being righteous, I am the biggest sinner but I follow the messages from Heaven. Protestant and Catholic. They're helping prepare everyone for the Great Tribulation and the new time coming after, Catholics know it as the Era of Peace.

I smiled at the way you stated it, "a cosmic throw down." The soon Great Warning, the world will recognize this event is from God. Wonderful, I can't put into words to do justice, that you believe in the the Holy Eucharist. I wish everyone felt this way.

On the difference of belief between Lutheran and Catholic communion. In my words the Eucharist, Catholic communion is explained by the term Transubstantiation. After the priest's words of consecration, the bread and wine become the risen body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord. The bread and wine (the accidents) do not change, we don't see a change but the (substance) is changed, the consecrated host and wine are now truly Our Lord. It's supernatural, something you have to believe by faith. It's God's plan and isn't it true, God loves when we have faith.

Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation, Christ's presence, His body and blood coexist with the bread and wine. The fact is nothing happens because Lutherans do not have validly ordained priests. Lutheran pastors aren't even referred to as priest.

take care,


cobe

+ + +

CONSUBSTANTIATION. The belief, contrary to Catholic doctrine, that in the Eucharist the body and blood of Christ coexist with the bread and wine after the Consecration of the Mass. John Wyclif (1324-84) and Martin Luther (1483-1546) professed consubstantiation because they denied transubstantiation.

TRANSUBSTANTIATION. The complete change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood by a validly ordained priest during the consecration at Mass, so that only the accidents of bread and wine remain. While the faith behind the term was already believed in apostolic times, the term itself was a later development. With the Eastern Fathers before the sixth century, the favored expression was meta-ousiosis "change of being"; the Latin tradition coined the word transubstantiatio, "change of substance," which was incorporated into the creed of the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The Council of Trent, in defining the "wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and the whole substance of the wine into the blood" of Christ, added "which conversion the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation" (Denzinger 1652). After transubstantiation, the accidents of bread and wine do not inhere in any subject or substance whatever. Yet they are not make-believe; they are sustained in existence by divine power. (Etym. Latin trans-, so as to change + substantia, substance: transubstantiatio, change of substance.)

However, there are no priests in apostolic succession to confect the Lutheran Eucharist.



posted on Dec, 30 2011 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


Colbe, you have to understand this, it is not the eucharist we have a problem with, it is who ministers the eucharist. As you will notice in the last supper, which was a seder meal, Jesus offered Himself. He did not ask his disciples to break the bread and administer it. And furthermore, He passed the cup without taking a drink from it because He was going to drink it new in heaven.

When you take the eucharist, it is symbolic but the priest, especially one that is a sinner, is not Christ. And you know very well, that if you take the eucharist unworthily, all you do is add sickness upon sickness on people. Is the priest the vicarious Christ, or is the bread? The biggest mistake Catholics made was accepting that the vicar was the avatar for Jesus Christ. There is only one Jesus Christ and He presents Himself inwardly to the believer. No matter how much sprinkling or dunking that happens, if a person does not really believe in Jesus Christ, it is none-effect in their lives.

Think about all those popes who were murderers and child molesters, and calling themselves the vicar of Christ, administering a wafer and telling people they would be ok if they took it. An evil man calls himself vicar, then tells you to not question him, and tells you he gets his authority from the church, and then telling you the church gets its authority from God...God does not use evil men to perform sacred rites, ones that He never even endorsed in the first place. Yes, Jesus did say "I am the bread of life which came down from Heaven", is a ritual performed in every observing Jewish home on Passover. You need to go to a seder meal and witness it for yourself.

But I will say this, Paul would be turning over in his grave to see how Catholics have manipulated a religion and then giving people false hope by saying "take the eucharist, no matter what condition the priest lives in, or what condition you are in, all will be overlooked because you did this". Does God operated in that manner? It is not the eucharist we have a problem with, it is those who administer it. I have the right as a Christian to say no to these men and am safe in my salvation because I did not stand in the council of the ungodly.



posted on Dec, 30 2011 @ 05:28 PM
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I'm just posting to let you know I'm still following this discussion. I have to sit here and absorb the last two posts. For me at the present time it's all rather moot what I believe, because of the status of my marriage. As I said, I'm Protestant married to a Catholic who isn't "practicing" but still retains his faith and beliefs and teachings. I can only attend Catholic services with my husband's family. My husband will not attend Protestant services with me, and I have not found a Protestant church since I moved here that resonates with me very well. So I go to Mass from time to time, but being Protestant, I can not participate in the Communion sacrament. So in a sense, I'm kind of "excommunicated". At least outwardly. In my heart, I'm at peace more than at any other time in my life. I know what I need to be doing, for the most part. Now I just need to be doing it. I just don't quiet myself enough to get it all done. By that I mean I am still quick to anger and judge. My father in law tells me he values mass and attends daily because doing so does quiet him and he can then set his mind to following Christ's example better. He's a good man, too. He can be very annoying, but I admire his character.


There is a lot about Catholicism that I prefer to the Protestant way, but I still struggle to accept aspects of the priesthood and their authority. I have severe difficulty with the concept of appealing to saints fir intercession. And there are some Catholic practices involving relics or figures that I find overtly pagan. Like the one my mother in law and sister in law tried to lay on me about burying the statue of some saint in my yard when I was in the process of moving, so I could sell the house easier or some such thing. I found it to be oddly pagan and superstitious and not in keeping with Christ's teachings in any way.

But when it comes to mysticism I have some of my own pagan traditions left over from my Asian heritage. For example I won't let anyone move the Foo dogs in my house from their watchdog positions. I do think there may be lost or incomplete knowledge scattered among different faiths that explain and manipulate energies that surround us. Still, none of these things fits in with what Jesus came here to accomplish, which is why I think he told us not to get hung up on such things and set them before each other as stumbling blocks.

I believe in Jesus as the Son of God, made our brother in the flesh and united to us as our Savior. I do believe he died and rose from a physical death. And I take him very seriously about wanting us to love one another as we love ourselves and want salvation for everyone, rather than vengeance. (lol but you wouldn't know that from some of my posts about people who do mean things to defenselss animals and people...told you I'm a hothead sometimes!)

I just don't know if I can believe that a God who loved me enough to be tortured to death as a human on my behalf would be all that fussed over people getting confused about the nature of the Eucharist. I ask myself, if I were God, and this is just coming at it from the perspective of a nice middle aged lady who rescues stray animals at great cost to myself, would I deny entry to Heaven to people who otherwise believed in me, but got confused after centuries worth of fighting over some ceremonies.

My hypothetical God self would understand. And didn't Jesus tell the thief next to him on the other cross that he would be seeing him in Heaven? That dude never did anything other than steal stuff and at the very last minute repent and say he believed in what Jesus was doing.

Well these are the things I wrestle with. My daughter was supposed to be raised Catholic but I was very ill following her birth and she had health problems and her baptism got put off. It does not help that my husband is oddly hands off, and of course I have no clue how to raise a child up in a faith I don't know very well. And now at 7, she has yet to consent to it. She insists now the choice is hers to make and she says she is undecided. My husband and his family have had a hard time selling her on any of the teachings they have presented so far. I don't tell her much, but I ask her a lot of questions, since I believe she is closer to the source as a child not really exposed to much in the way of formal doctrine.

She has hit me with some profound stuff since the age of three. I do run a lot of things by her. We talk about the treatment of gays and transgendered people in religion for example. We talk about gender roles and equality and inequality in organized religion and about how it makes us feel as females to be marginalized by some beliefs and practices, We talk about differences in religions. Her responses remind me a lot of the encompassing responses from I AM, the "Love, your Brother" dude!



posted on Dec, 30 2011 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain
 


SheeplFA,

I read your first paragraph and wanted to reply. Don't feel bad, it's this
way for Catholics too. My dear husband is Catholic but liberal in thinking
not understanding the teachings of the Church on some things. The
term would be Cafeteria Catholic. I pray for him, right now that's how
it is, I have hope.

Can you take instruction in the faith and become Catholic? Would your
husband be fine with it? The program, I am sure you are aware, is the
RCIA program. I have found, I like the Traditional Latin Mass groups,
parishes, their instruction better, no offense to the RCIA people but some
of them are lay people not instructing always the true teachijngs. It's always a traditional priest preparing you at a Latin Mass community. You might find the nearest and call them.

There are two Orders approved by the Church, the Priestly Fraternity
of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest.
Call one of them, to find the parish in your area to take instruction.

The Tridentine Mass is so beautiful and reverent.

colbe



posted on Dec, 30 2011 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by colbe
reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain
 


SheeplFA,

I read your first paragraph and wanted to reply. Don't feel bad, it's this
way for Catholics too. My dear husband is Catholic but liberal in thinking
not understanding the teachings of the Church on some things. The
term would be Cafeteria Catholic. I pray for him, right now that's how
it is, I have hope.

Can you take instruction in the faith and become Catholic? Would your
husband be fine with it? The program, I am sure you are aware, is the
RCIA program. I have found, I like the Traditional Latin Mass groups,
parishes, their instruction better, no offense to the RCIA people but some
of them are lay people not instructing always the true teachings. It's always a traditional priest preparing you at a Latin Mass community. You might find the nearest and call them.

There are two Orders approved by the Church, the Priestly Fraternity
of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest.
Call one of them, to find the parish in your area to take instruction.

The Tridentine Mass is so beautiful and reverent.

colbe


Hey, the instruction is much shorter too, it doesn't take an entire year only
a few months!!



posted on Dec, 30 2011 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by colbe
 


Colbe, you have to understand this, it is not the eucharist we have a problem with, it is who ministers the eucharist. As you will notice in the last supper, which was a seder meal, Jesus offered Himself. He did not ask his disciples to break the bread and administer it. And furthermore, He passed the cup without taking a drink from it because He was going to drink it new in heaven.

When you take the eucharist, it is symbolic but the priest, especially one that is a sinner, is not Christ. And you know very well, that if you take the eucharist unworthily, all you do is add sickness upon sickness on people. Is the priest the vicarious Christ, or is the bread? The biggest mistake Catholics made was accepting that the vicar was the avatar for Jesus Christ. There is only one Jesus Christ and He presents Himself inwardly to the believer. No matter how much sprinkling or dunking that happens, if a person does not really believe in Jesus Christ, it is none-effect in their lives.

Think about all those popes who were murderers and child molesters, and calling themselves the vicar of Christ, administering a wafer and telling people they would be ok if they took it. An evil man calls himself vicar, then tells you to not question him, and tells you he gets his authority from the church, and then telling you the church gets its authority from God...God does not use evil men to perform sacred rites, ones that He never even endorsed in the first place. Yes, Jesus did say "I am the bread of life which came down from Heaven", is a ritual performed in every observing Jewish home on Passover. You need to go to a seder meal and witness it for yourself.

But I will say this, Paul would be turning over in his grave to see how Catholics have manipulated a religion and then giving people false hope by saying "take the eucharist, no matter what condition the priest lives in, or what condition you are in, all will be overlooked because you did this". Does God operated in that manner? It is not the eucharist we have a problem with, it is those who administer it. I have the right as a Christian to say no to these men and am safe in my salvation because I did not stand in the council of the ungodly.


WarminIndy, hi,

Yes Jesus did. There's the true meaning of "remembrance." Jesus was
instructing the Apostles to do as He had just done, change the bread
and wine into His body.

If you believe it to be the body and blood of Our Lord, the Real Presence,
why do you not become Roman Catholic?

Friend, concerning Paul, remember, he said if you don't discern it is the "body" of Our Lord you bring judgment on yourself. And you bring up something important, it isn't the condition of the priest's soul, this is how much Our Lord wants you to receive Him. The Eucharist is the summit of the faith.

Protestants came up with the Eucharist is only a "symbol" or another
excuse, it is a "remembrance" of Our Lord's death on the cross which
is ridiculous. How are juice and crackers a remembrance of Jesus'
suffering death on the cross?

The excuses came along in the 16th century when men left the Church, denied her authority, denied the ministerial priesthood. Simply said, they could no longer confect the Holy Eucharist so came up with a new interpretation of Scripture.

The "evil Pope" nonsense comes from anti-Catholic writings. Was Peter
evil? Is Pope Benedict XVI or Pope John Paul II evil?

Remember, the anti-Christ is going to abolish the Eucharist during his
brief reign. Why would he bother if it isn't true and not needed?

We need Our Lord, His presence in the Eucharist. It's supernatural, just
believe.


take care,

colbe



posted on Dec, 30 2011 @ 11:55 PM
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Hi, it's colbe,
I complain about people replying line for line and here, now I am going to do it...at least to comment after paragraphs. I didn't say in my last post, you attending Mass even though you can't receive the Eucharist yet, you are receiving graces by being there.

Originally posted by SheeplFlavoredAgain

There is a lot about Catholicism that I prefer to the Protestant way, but I still struggle to accept aspects of the priesthood and their authority. I have severe difficulty with the concept of appealing to saints fir intercession. And there are some Catholic practices involving relics or figures that I find overtly pagan. Like the one my mother in law and sister in law tried to lay on me about burying the statue of some saint in my yard when I was in the process of moving, so I could sell the house easier or some such thing. I found it to be oddly pagan and superstitious and not in keeping with Christ's teachings in any way.

On authority, priests are suppose to represent Christ, In Persona Christi. Most all of them are pretty wonderful. The scandal, pray for those priests truly guilty. Some priests have been accused that aren't guilty. The percentage accused is 1.5%. But to anti-Catholics, all priests are involved. Some of the Bishops have made it worse not knowing what to do. Really shows, Satan accepts the power of the priesthood. He does not let up, He wishes to destroy the greatest means to God's grace.

This is what I don't understand, Protestants celebrate Old Covenant feast days and accept the Jewish priesthood of offering sacrifice. It's lame then to deny the New Covenant priesthood. This is how our Lord set it up, their excuse, Jesus is the High priest, really? Where is the "continual sacrifice" that can only be offered by a priest happening down here? Accept the Old, deny the New Covenant.

On burying the St. Joseph statue. It's extreme, basically, prayers are said to St. Joseph for his help to sell a home. That's intercession. I accept if you intercede to God for me, with your prayers for my intentions, why not the holy saints in Heaven, asking their help? Think of everyone in Heaven and yes, Purgatory and here on earth as one family. They are helping us get to Heaven. The saints would do that... People who deny the intercession of the saints have no come back for prayer, mental prayer, a request to a particular saint...answered. There are many, many testimonies to this fact.


But when it comes to mysticism I have some of my own pagan traditions left over from my Asian heritage. For example I won't let anyone move the Foo dogs in my house from their watchdog positions. I do think there may be lost or incomplete knowledge scattered among different faiths that explain and manipulate energies that surround us. Still, none of these things fits in with what Jesus came here to accomplish, which is why I think he told us not to get hung up on such things and set them before each other as stumbling blocks.

I don't know what to compare? God uses physical things to open you to receive His grace. I have a lot crucifixes and some holy pictures around our home. I use holy water, I have a holy water fount as you go out our front door and I carry blessed medals and a rosary with me. A priest uses a crucifix in the Rite of Exorcism because what I just said is true. People should place a small crucifix over their outside doors. Like the Passover, Jesus Christ crucified, is the New Covenant Passover Lamb. Homes have gone untouched from weather disasters doing this and you keep the "evil one" at bay. Sacramentals, all of these, help fight the unseen battle.

I believe in Jesus as the Son of God, made our brother in the flesh and united to us as our Savior. I do believe he died and rose from a physical death. And I take him very seriously about wanting us to love one another as we love ourselves and want salvation for everyone, rather than vengeance. (lol but you wouldn't know that from some of my posts about people who do mean things to defenselss animals and people...told you I'm a hothead sometimes!)

Your words are beautiful and ....I have a temper too. I tell my husband, it's my side's generational sin.


I'll finish my reply to yours in another post. See you later....


colbe



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by colbe
 



WarminIndy, hi,

Yes Jesus did. There's the true meaning of "remembrance." Jesus was
instructing the Apostles to do as He had just done, change the bread
and wine into His body.

If you believe it to be the body and blood of Our Lord, the Real Presence,
why do you not become Roman Catholic?

take care,

colbe


Colbe, I am not interested in becoming Catholic as in being under the authority of the Vatican because the Vatican is not the vicar of Christ. The term Catholic, as you say, is universal, and implying a universal, invisible church, that means that believers become part of the church from an inward relationship and not adherence to outward creeds.

I think it is hard for you to get the idea that the rest of us view the priesthood as it is now as an outward showing of might and power and we have problems with the lavish and ungodly lifestyles of the authority figures in the RCC. We don't need icons and statutes to remind us of saints and we don't burn candles for every little thing, we pray about things to the invisible, immortal God and we can do that ourselves without the need for another to do it for us.

Do you overlook the sins of the authority figures of the RCC? Is it because the RCC leadership told you to listen to them anyway? Colbe, you are not listening to God when you listen to this leadership, and this leadership keeps you in bondage without setting you free because the RCC demands that you accept it as the authority. Think about it and try to put two and two together... a person bullies others, and then demands you accept their acts of bullying and the way they do it is tell you that they are in charge and you have no permission to not believe them.

The Vatican is really a large pyramid scheme, all the money is given to the top guys, and they live lavishly and do wicked things, all the while telling you to accept it and not question it. The eucharist is administered falsely, under false pretenses, and that is not protestant anti-Catholic bashing, it is truth that you can't accept because you are so afraid to admit your leadership has led millions upon millions astray by themselves claiming they received their right by divine authority, which you and I both know they did not. They have no authority other than what they have forcibly taken, and forcibly kept. Jesus is not in the Catholic church leadership, He is above all powers and principalities, including the RCC that set itself up without the mandate from God or even the permission from God.

What you will say is this..."but they told us that Jesus gave her authority". They told you, they did not show you, THEY told you. Jesus did not tell you, the apostles did not tell you, THEY told you, and you are too afraid to speak against them. Why are you afraid of the leadership of the Catholic church? Are they going to hurt you?
edit on 12/31/2011 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2011 @ 10:30 AM
link   
reply to post by colbe
 


I believe my Lord's presence is within me. He said He would abide in me and He in I. The breaking of bread is a symbolic act at every Jewish seder meal. Jesus was keeping the tradition.

Jesus abides in the believer who believes and receives His holy spirit within.

edit on 12/31/2011 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 02:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Colbe, I am not interested in becoming Catholic as in being under the authority of the Vatican because the Vatican is not the vicar of Christ. The term Catholic, as you say, is universal, and implying a universal, invisible church, that means that believers become part of the church from an inward relationship and not adherence to outward creeds.

I think it is hard for you to get the idea that the rest of us view the priesthood as it is now as an outward showing of might and power and we have problems with the lavish and ungodly lifestyles of the authority figures in the RCC. We don't need icons and statutes to remind us of saints and we don't burn candles for every little thing, we pray about things to the invisible, immortal God and we can do that ourselves without the need for another to do it for us.

Do you overlook the sins of the authority figures of the RCC? Is it because the RCC leadership told you to listen to them anyway? Colbe, you are not listening to God when you listen to this leadership, and this leadership keeps you in bondage without setting you free because the RCC demands that you accept it as the authority. Think about it and try to put two and two together... a person bullies others, and then demands you accept their acts of bullying and the way they do it is tell you that they are in charge and you have no permission to not believe them.

The Vatican is really a large pyramid scheme, all the money is given to the top guys, and they live lavishly and do wicked things, all the while telling you to accept it and not question it. The eucharist is administered falsely, under false pretenses, and that is not protestant anti-Catholic bashing, it is truth that you can't accept because you are so afraid to admit your leadership has led millions upon millions astray by themselves claiming they received their right by divine authority, which you and I both know they did not. They have no authority other than what they have forcibly taken, and forcibly kept. Jesus is not in the Catholic church leadership, He is above all powers and principalities, including the RCC that set itself up without the mandate from God or even the permission from God.

What you will say is this..."but they told us that Jesus gave her authority". They told you, they did not show you, THEY told you. Jesus did not tell you, the apostles did not tell you, THEY told you, and you are too afraid to speak against them. Why are you afraid of the leadership of the Catholic church? Are they going to hurt you?
edit on 12/31/2011 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)


The whole problem is your first sentence. Pride keeps you from following
the authority God gave the Church. You want to decide. Everything
you know of Christ is because of that God given authority.

It's very easy to put it together.

"Bible Alone" is no where in Scripture, it came from the mind of Martin
Luther. Scripture actually says it is the Church who is the pillar and
foundation of Truth. 1Tim 3:15.

The Bible is a Catholic book, Pope Damasus, God's authority on earth
in the late 4th century (383 A.D.) decided the Canon.

The Holy Eucharist is true. You need the grace of the Holy Eucharist
or you remain a baby Christian. That's why Jesus said in John 6, unless you receive the Eucharist you have no life in you, He means supernatural life, it is truly God Himself in you. No where else can you find this
supernatural help. Grace is God's presence...so....this is why God
decided to come to humanity in this humble way.

And a third coming up, the anti-Christ is going to abolish the Eucharist.
That should tell you it is truly Jesus.

The Remnant is Roman Catholic. At the time of the Great Warning, you
will say, "yes, I didn't realize"....

Because, God is going to show you. He is so loving.


p.s. The nonsense that there is no visible Church, only a body of believers
is the lame Protestant excuse. There's been a visible Church since day
one, a hierarchy, and a grace filled Sacramental system. Do you know whose term "Catholic" is...Ignatius of Antioch, THIRD BISHOP, of Antioch. WarminIndy, Ignatius as a boy knew St. John the beloved Apostle.

Did you use to be Catholic?


take care and blessings,


colbe



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 02:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by colbe
 


I believe my Lord's presence is within me. He said He would abide in me and He in I. The breaking of bread is a symbolic act at every Jewish seder meal. Jesus was keeping the tradition.

Jesus abides in the believer who believes and receives His holy spirit within.

edit on 12/31/2011 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)
'

WarminIndy,

We are in the New Covenant not the Old. And you acknowledge Jesus
is the New Covenant Passover Lamb. What do our Jewish brother
sisters do...they consumed the Passover Lamb. In the New Covenant,
we consume Our Lord in the Eucharist.

You should look at that Scripture about abiding. Jesus tells you how you abide in Him and He in you. I'll look for that verse, you cancelled your own statement.

And it's the only verse in the Gospel that states both, how Our Lord abides in us and we in Him.

The Eucharist is not a "symbol." Protestants came up with this in 1517
and are sticking with it because they cannot confect the most Holy
Eucharist. The Eucharist is truly Our Lord's risen body, blood,
soul and divinity because He says it. So, have faith. Paul believes
and lets people know who reject the Real Presence.


1Cor 11:29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 02:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by colbe
 


I believe my Lord's presence is within me. He said He would abide in me and He in I. The breaking of bread is a symbolic act at every Jewish seder meal. Jesus was keeping the tradition.

Jesus abides in the believer who believes and receives His holy spirit within.

edit on 12/31/2011 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)


John 6:57
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.



posted on Jan, 1 2012 @ 01:36 PM
link   
reply to post by colbe
 


Hi Colbe and WarminIndy, I can't fully address all that you both have written but I thank you both for your contributions in this discussion.

Colbe, your comment about the pedophile priests and about Satan wanting to mess up a good thing, I do believe that. I have seen how that entity messes with people. In my posting history on ATS it's no secret I've alluded to and sought help for some paranormal problems that are basically spiritual attacks in my home. These events reached a peak just as I was setting up in the most preliminary way, preparations to have my daughter at least take Baptism classes and figure out where I was going to enroll in RCIA. I wasn't necessarily going to convert but I did at least want to understand better the beliefs of the family I married into.

To recount everything that happened would be a lot to go into, but the end result is my sponsor suddenly took very ill and almost died, my daughter and I got terrified out of her wits by something I'm not going to discuss now, and I had to stop everything. In addition to all that we both kept getting sick. A catholic friend of mine, also a former Protestant, told me she suspected we were under spiritual attack and has been praying for us. She said she has gone through one but not as overt as what we went through.

That is one of the things I do value about Catholicism, they take evil in all of its manifestations very seriously and provide resources for even lay people to understand what they are dealing with. I am descended from a line of pagan female shamans in my Asian line. My mother's mother was the last shaman but current generations still have lingering problems with ticked off entities that hang around wondering why we don't serve them anymore. I've had to bring some problems to my pastors in my youth and they were so far removed from this level of spiritual existence and battle they could only think I was complaining my house was haunted, to which of course they gave the sensible but useless reply of don't worry, there's no such thing as ghosts.

Some Protestant churches have preserved the ancient beliefs of the true nature of evil and how to fight it, but mine did not. I do therefore believe too much got thrown out in the Reformation. I do believe though that basic rebellious ideas in the Reformation were necessary to force the Catholic Church into examining its sins and excesses. Not all of the rebellion was a heresy. Heresy was a buzzword Satan threw around to protect some beliefs and practices he sneaked into the Church to corrupt it from within. And history does bear witness to the fact that at one time for a very long multi generational period, the Church did more harm than good for people.

That does not mean the Church is invalid but it serves to show us at any given moment evil can hold sway over the best intentioned institution or individuals we are to take no mere man's word or authority above that of the Holy Spirit's. Jesus himself told us to question everything and test it to discern for ourselves if it is of God or not.

For all the good that any church or any human can contain within at any moment, there are jealous, deceiving hate filled forces working constantly to destroy this good by any means possible.
edit on 1-1-2012 by SheeplFlavoredAgain because: Fixing typos and sentences.



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