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archaeological cover up of Relation of predeluvian myths around the world.....one world as today in

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posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 05:25 AM
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HI all,
So, I was looking through some old posts here and made my way up the ladder to this old thread when I first joined ATS....I just wanted to return to something I saw there that made a correlation between Native American myths and Jewish Haggada myths concerning the Pleiades constellation. It got me wondering if we could form a general consensus of world knowledge in the prediluvian world. I would like to take the flood stories and other known facts of ancient peoples to better grasp the gnosis they enjoyed since we often esteem it to be superior to our own. I think anything from formation of constellations, movements of planets, theology and general wisdom will count as long as we make a connection between peoples that are not geographically connected yet share a common explanation of how or why things came to be.

The main goal of this thread is to prove to some degree that all people at one point shared a rich exchange of knowledge and ultimately through the a process of non zero sumness (interchange between people for information in which all "win" useful knowledge). We would then argue that all people developed together rather than independently in their origin.
SO, maybe if Australia had bows and arrows we could then argue they somehow learned this from other continents....We know this is not the case but it is a good example of what exactly I would like to prove.
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Here is the example I saw in the thread : www.abovetopsecret.com...
According to a Haggada legend the flood was started by the removal of two stars from the Pleiades constellation. The flood was stopped by the transfer of two stars from the Bear constellation to the Pleiades constellation. That is why the Bear runs after the Pleiades. She wants her two children back, but she will only get them back in the future world.
www.sacred-texts.com...
According to the Native American tribes of the Kiowa and Lakota Sioux, some girls went out to play and were spotted by several giant bears, who began to chase them. In an effort to escape the bears, the girls climbed atop a rock, fell to their knees, and prayed to the Great Spirit to save them. Hearing their prayers, the Great Spirit made the rock rise from the ground towards the heavens so that the bears could not reach the girls. The bears, in an effort to climb the rock, left deep claw marks in the sides, which had become too steep to climb. (Those are the marks which appear today on the sides of Devils Tower.) When the girls reached the sky, they were turned into the star constellation the Pleiades.
en.wikipedia.org...
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here are some peoples that share a flood story: www.talkorigins.org...
Since this link has most, if you would like to add one that is missing please do, or if you would like to point out specific details of one or more feel free.....

I would also like to point out that if you want to make a connection between religions and their beliefs...do so, but please dont go so far as to insult any one in particular....thanks

to mods.....I posted this in off topic under chit chat as well.....I think it actually belongs here since there is an active effort to discredit these theories of human life during pangea or later of high tech civilizations before ours....sorry for the error in judgement....if the other thread could be deleted so as to not divide info....it would be super duper...




posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 07:04 AM
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reply to post by newyorkee
 
I read your earlier post and subscribed to it ..I found the links you provided were really good ,thanks for that .If you could fix the links in this thread others would appreciate it ...S&F and it should be interesting what others may contribute .....peace



posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 07:19 AM
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It's a load of bull to keep you from paying attention to what is going on around you. To keep you from talking about what is going on around you. Like soap opera's for religious minds.



posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 07:53 AM
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so yeah....I am like a zombie right now.....at work....dead tired and tried to do this thread along with like 40 other things and F ed it all the F up.....my bad here are the links in the order they apear.....sorry cant edit its been over 4 hours.....sucks,....

Here is the example I saw in the thread : www.abovetopsecret.com...

Haggada legend :
www.sacred-texts.com...

Kiowa and Lakota Sioux legend:
en.wikipedia.org...

here are some peoples that share a flood story: www.talkorigins.org...

I am now off to sleep off this past weekend......sorry for wasting your time guys.....I hope this can be salvaged..if not I´ll add more later
edit on 27-12-2011 by newyorkee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 08:15 AM
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reply to post by newyorkee
 


Perhaps you are unaware that the entire zodiac appears to have an ancient history all about the world. It has been years since I was interested in it, but the big puzzle was how so many ancient cultures came to define the heavens into sections and generally give similar names (if some local) to the sections. Plus, there was the even more mysterious question of how these cultures independently knew enough of the science of astronomy to create their myths and astrological foundations. What seems clear that these cultures had pure astronomical data early on even it they did pervert that information into astrology. But that can be seen as a natural quest to understand the heavens as well as discover (if possible) how humans fit into that hugeness.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 02:19 AM
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fuente magna bowl---Bolivia, cuniform writting found in South America on bowl......Proto sumarian



"A controversy arose about the cuneiform script on the Fuente Magna. Dr. Alberto Marini, translated it and reported that it was Sumerian.. After a careful examination of the Fuente Magna, linear script Dr. Clyde A. Winters determined that it was probably Proto-Sumerian, which is found on many artifacts from in Mesopotamia. An identical script was used by the Elamites called Proto-Elamite."

"Of particular interest is that the people of the Fuente Magna, referred to the Goddess as Nia. Nia, is the Linear-A term for Neith. Neith is the Greek name for the Egyptian Goddess Nt or Neit, Semitic Anat. This goddess was very popular among the ancient people of Libya and other parts of Middle Africa, before these people left the region to settle Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley and Minoan Crete. "

"Dr. Winters noted that his translation of the Fuente Magna inscriptions supports the hypothesis of Awen Dawn that the Fuente was used in celebration of the Goddess religion of the ancient people of Bolivia. Awen Dawn recognized that the figure on the Fuente Magna was in a Goddess pose, with open arms and legs spread, which supports Winters’ translation.. In addition, the identification of symbols on the bowl by Awen that relate to European signs for the Mother Goddess, probably reflects the early influence of the Goddess Neith on the mainland of Greece and Crete."


www.faculty.ucr.edu...



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 03:06 AM
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Early form of Basque as the original universal language spoken across the globe



Edo Nyland (2001) has proposed the existence of a Universal Language in a book Linguistic Archaeology: An Introduction. Trafford Publ. 541 p. In this book Nyland revealed the recovery of stone-age and medieval history by analysis of language. In the process of gathering data he became convinced that a universal language had existed in the Neolithic and that virtually all advanced languages of today derived directly from this early language. This has led to the development of several hypotheses and a theory of the origin of languages (see Theory).




Therefore, in open syllables ( in the absence of a following /j/ or /w/), Sumerian preserves a record of and Basque preserves the original vowel quality of the Proto-Language intact.



This discrepancy can be resolved when we realize that a number of Basque adjectives like ilun, "dark", also function as nouns: "darkness", which has led "a number of vasconists to suspect that, at some early stage of the language, there was no distinction between adjectives and nouns (Trask 1997:210)", which Trask admits as a possibility if "at a very remote period". This is certainly the case in Sumerian in which "Adjectives do not differ morphologically from nominal or verbal stems and there are no morphological means to derive adjectives from other stems. An adjectival stem is primarily characterized by its syntactic use . . . (Thomsen 1984:64)".




Reassessments of Sumerian and Basque are long overdue. As we have seen in the previously published PL-IE-Basque essay, Basque shows such close relationships with this language, that the basal component of the Basque culture (sheep-herders) must be considered ethnically Sumerian.

reocities.com...



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 04:02 AM
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The cross as a solar symbol throughout history.....also worth mentioning is the fact that a crucifixion is often part of the symbology....


The Solar cross is probably the oldest religious symbol in the world, appearing in Asian, American, European, and Indian religious art from the dawn of history. Composed of a equal armed cross within a circle, it represents the solar calendar- the movements of the sun, marked by the solstices. Sometimes the equinoxes are marked as well, giving an eight armed wheel. The swastika is also a form of Solar cross.



symboldictionary.net...



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 04:11 AM
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4.bp.blogspot.com...

so the swastica is one of those symbols that made it from our distant past.....I´d just like to note that it is main the symbol for basques



3.The swastika is indeed a sun symbol from antiquity, appropriate in many themes & on many occasions. Like flood legends, the swastika (in various recognizable styles) is one of many symbols found thru-out ancient civilisations having no possible contact (as we understand contact) with each other. Usually it meant the sun, in its scheme as "the wheel of life". (Mayan, I believe.) It was also a popular good luck symbol. For example, it can be found on pre-1930 American New Year's greeting cards.

primeross.blogspot.com...
edit on 28-12-2011 by newyorkee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 04:27 AM
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also worth mentioning is the father crespi collection in ecuador.....it is reported that an ancient tunel system holds a golden library full of artifacts and other such cool stuff from when the Egyptian God Thoth supposedly was kicked out of Egypt by Ra along with some of his followers (Olmecs) and settled there in South America.....

since this is all without proof I just throw it out there....

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

atlantisrisingmagazine.com...

www.philipcoppens.com...

to all you zecharia sitchin fans....that would be when Marduk (Ra) ousted Ningishzidda (thoth).....
edit on 28-12-2011 by newyorkee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 05:19 AM
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so here we have a connection between proto saharan gods and the later gods of other religions.....



The historic gods of Africa and Asia were of Proto-Saharan origin. Concepts concerning these ancient gods or great ancestors were first developed around a gigantic lake that formerly existed in Middle Africa around 8000 years ago. This is supported by the fact that the Saharan cultures have resemblances to those of Nubia. This lake was known in ancient times as Lake Tritonis.

Lake Tritonis was situated in the Libyan desert. Here as early as 7000 B.C., there was a slow transition from hunting , to cattle pastoralism. The prehistoric appearance of a great lake in Libya has recently been supported by satellite pictures of the Eastern Desert which indicate that a lake was located in the Qattara depression of northwest Egypt.

Around 10000 years ago pluvial conditions existed in the Sahara which led to the creation of numerous river beds now buried under tons of sand. Due to the abundance of streams, rivers and lakes in Proto-Saharan Africa men who were powerful, were men who could harness the powerful water of the numerous streams and rivers. Such men as these were recognized as demigods or great ancestors. For example in Sumer and Egypt gods and demigods were described as "reed-boat navigators". In Egypt some of these great men that became gods include Thoth, and Osiris

This is supported by Dravidian and Egyptian traditions. In ancient Egyptian tradition Ptah, came from the Sahara below Egypt in Kush. He found Egypt inundated, so he performed great works of dyking and land reclamation so the land was more habitable.

The first avatar or Tirumal of the Dravidians is regarded as a fish, who showed Manu, a boat to save himself from being drowned. Tirumal,is the same as Visnu of Sanskrit literature, another name for this god is Mayavon, Mayan and Mal.

According to references in the Bhagavata Purana, a fish who is identified with the first avatar (sage), showed Manu a boat nearby to save himself from being drowned . In passing it is interesting to note that the emblem of the Pandya Kings of South India was the fish. Moreover in the Mesopotamian deluge story two Tamil words: nir 'water' and min 'fish' appear.

Moreover, it is interesting to note that the Arivar or sages of the Dravidians were also called Vellalar "lords of the flood " or Karatar "lords of the clouds". These sages earned these titles because of their skill in controlling the floods and in storing water for agricultural purposes.

Apollonius Rhodius tells us that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Tritonis in Libya. The goddess Athene, was called Neith by the Egyptians and Nia, by the Manding and Eteo-Cretans of Minoan civilization.


ipoaa.com...

Tirumal of the Dravidians is regarded as a fish----Enki/ EA of the Sumarian tradition was also symbolized as a fish
edit on 28-12-2011 by newyorkee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 06:34 AM
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without going too much into the cult of the snake found throughout the world in one form or the other.....thats another thread altogether.....if you want to add something about it go ahead....I will reserve that for another week... here is some examples of snake mythology in the world....



In the underground tomb of Fan Yen-Shih, d. A.D. 689, two painted silk veils show the First Ancestors of the Chinese, their entwined serpect bodies rotating around the invisible vertical axis mundi.

Fu Hsi holds the set-square and plumb bob … as he rules the four-cornered earth, while his sister-wife Nü-wa holds the compass pointing up, as she rules the circling heavens

www.templestudy.com...



The snake is also used by Chinese mythology. The Chinese maintained that the world was surrounded by two intertwined snakes, which symbolized the power and wisdom of the creator. (Ying/Yang) However, the snake was also said to cause the devastating floods, as the movement of the water resembled a snakes movement.

The Australian Aborigines see the snake as the beast that will make them man by devouring them as boys, and re-emerging as man. Do we not see similarities between his and the story where the Jonas traveled the seas, to be devoured by a whale, and spewed out three days later a new man? It is also similar to Baptism, which took place in the river Jordan on Easter, where people would be submerged in the water, where it was said that a beast of the underworld devoured their soul, after which one would re-emerge a new man. In these stories, the characters are often given a new name after such a rebirth, after being added to a new group of people. Do we not see this phenomenon in our own degrees, where through initiation, passing and raising a new name is given?

The Aztecs too placed high regard for the snake, which they called by the almost unpronounceable name of Quetzacoatl. This snake was feathered so that it could communicate with the Gods. The use of this snake is widespread, the most famous of stories entails an Aztec King who seeks immortality, and to find it sets out to sea on a raft laden with snakes. The soothsayers claimed that one day, a new god would return from the seas. That he will have long blond hair, blue eyes, and will be wearing a brighten armor. This vision was very much taken advantage of in 1519 when the Spanish conqueror Ferdinando Cartez invaded Mexico.

In The Book of Numbers, for example, we find the story whereby the serpents sent by God cause many of the children of Israel to perish, but His chosen people were restored to life by the same serpents (Numbers 21:6-9).

In Greek mythology also, the snake plays an important role. It is said that the Zeus freed eagles at each end of the world. The place where these two eagles met was the center of the world, the center of the earth. This center, sometimes called the navel of the earth, is guarded by a snake, called Pytho. Above this navel the Oracle of Delphi, called Pythia, was constructed. We see this Oracle play an important role in the life of Pythagoras.

I would like to give some examples of this. Maybe the history of Egypt is the best known. The ancient Egyptian mythology states that the world was created by four powers, or Gods. One was the sun God of Amun-Ra which took the form of a snake and emerged from the water to inseminated the cosmic egg which was created by the other gods. It was said that all life on this earth stemmed from this egg.

www.themasonictrowel.com...
edit on 28-12-2011 by newyorkee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 07:04 AM
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I wanted to save this for later when I found more supporting evidence...but work is picking up and I have no internet at home...so I´ll just add more later..here it is

Olmec mystery in south america....africans in america...
I found a site in which a elephant "toy" was shown in a museum in Jalapa, Mexico...
What to note here is that
1. Elephants were supposedly not known to South Americans untill the Europeans came with such knowledge
2. It was mounted on wheels.....another invention which the Americans didnt know of....supposedly
3. It went "missing" along with the modification of the date that the museum put for the exhibit


Jalapa, a gem of a town, is about two hours' drive from Veracruz (where the Spanish Conquistador Hernan Cortes landed in 1519). Its museum is undoubtedly second only to the famed one in Mexico City; but unlike Mexico City's which displays artifacts from all over the country, the Jalapa one exhibits only locally discovered artifacts -- predominantly Olmec ones.

Dramatically and effectively displayed in an innovative setting, the Museum boasts several colossal stone heads as well as other stone sculptures. It also displays smaller objects found at Olmec sites; among them, in special display showcases, are what are considered to be Olmec "toys." They include animals mounted on wheels -- a visual and evidentiary negation of the common claim that the people of Mesoamerica (and America in general) were unfamiliar with the wheel.
And included in the same display case were elephants -- "toys" made of clay.

I, and some of my fans who accompanied me, saw them on previous visits to the Museum.
BUT when I (and again some of my fans with me) was there recently -- in December 1999 -- the elephants were nowhere in sight!

www.sitchin.com...
edit on 28-12-2011 by newyorkee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 07:37 AM
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just want to add a link to a thread here that is really good and might be related

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 12:13 PM
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NEBRA SKY DISC
The nebra sky disc is a tool that was used for navigation among other things and could in theory get a sailor anywhere around the world....3500 years ago......
39 calibration holes found in analysing the diameter of the disk
THE VALUE 39.6-INCHES RELATEs TO THE EQUATORIAL SIZE OF THE EARTH
The circumference value of the disk would equate to 1/39600000th of the circumference of the Earth.


"SO HOW DO I NAVIGATE A SAILING SHIP USING THIS ANCIENT GERMAN SYSTEM?
Well, you know the size of the Earth with relative accuracy. The true equatorial size figure that is used in modern times is 24902 British Standard miles, so, working to a reading of 24750-miles there's only about 150-miles of error and that's not going to effect the accuracy of positional plotting or navigation in limited areas like the Mediterranean or Atlantic. The ancient scientists already knew that the true size of the Earth was 12 X 12 X 12 X 12 X 1.2 British Standard Miles or 24883.2, which is only 18.8-miles off the accepted value of the 21st century. If they wished to be particularly pedantic and fussy they could make minuscule adjustments to calculate into the equation the additional finite precision.
The main thing is that you need a mathematical system to tell you exactly where you are in the ocean at all times."



www.celticnz.co.nz...


there is alot more on the page/book I used as a source but I just quoted the most important bit....have a look....its good stuff.....

3.bp.blogspot.com...

1.bp.blogspot.com...

Germany´s Bronze Age Disc; A transatlantic device?
By Dr.R.M. de Jonge & J.S. wakefield

"1999 bronze disc was looted from a prehistoric grave around Sachsen-Anhalt, in the Harz mountains of Germany. Three years later, the curious object was recovered and has since begun to throw new light on connections between the old world and new worlds during the deep past."

found 20-350 meters up mount mittelberg in neibra(Germany) , close to a tributary of the weser river, 250 kilometers from the north sea coast.



"a group of seven stars meant to be the Pleiades star cluster, 23 other stars found on the disk for a total of 30 stellar images"

"the stars to the left of the crescent moon image appear to represent Jupiter and Venus. The relative positions correspond to a super nova documented by Chinese astronomers around 1600 BC"

"its pleiadian constellation, the 23 other stars correspond to the latitude of the tropic of cancer at 23 degrees north. The latitude was said to be holy be followers of solar religions across the world because at noon on midsummer day the sun is directly overhead at this latitude, having moved up from the south. Most European megaliths incorporate this sacred position underscoring the conclusion of archeo-astronomers that the Paleolithic structures such as Britons Stonehenge were deliberately oriented to his significant celestial phenomena. The Niebra discs separate stars also correspond to the latitude of the southern Egyptian empire at 23 degrees north, the geographical midpoint of Ra´s religious cult."


books.google.es... #v=onepage&q&f=false

the whole book is awsome actually
edit on 28-12-2011 by newyorkee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 02:04 PM
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I would like to argue that our ancestors knew about the whole world in its complexity and travled it with ease,
exchanging ideas and culture on a global scale


The Piri-Resi Map: (Prehistoric Cartography)

3.bp.blogspot.com...


In 1929, a section of a world map drawn by the Turkish Admiral Reis (Piri-reis), was found in the basement of a museum in Constantinople. The map was of immediate interest as it appeared to show the coastlines of South America and Africa at their correct relative longitudes and latitudes, and the legend on the map dated it to 'Muharran' in the Moslem year 919 (1513 AD), only 20 years after the official discovery of the Americas by Columbus in 1492. The legend on the map itself however, gave it an origin far older than 20 years, revealing that it was a section of a world map composed from more than twenty source maps, some drawn in the time of Alexander the great, and that 'some were based on mathematics' (4). The fact that there was no known means of accurately calculating longitude in 1513 AD led Prof. Charles Hapgood to examine the map further.

Hapgood's research led him to make several fundamental conclusions; Firstly, he confirmed that the coastlines of the continents had been accurately plotted with regards to both latitude and longitude. Secondly, he determined that the co-ordinates had been mathematically converted from natures spherical model to fit the two dimensional representation of a map, (a method similar in principle to Mercator’s projection). Thirdly, he showed that a connection existed between this map and several other ancient portolano’s and mappa-mundi, some of which included the outline of the Antarctic continent. These facts led Hapgood to suggest the existence of a set of knowledge from a time before the Greeks, and placed a question mark over the origin of sciences such as geometry, geography and cartography, traditionally accredited to the Greeks.


www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk...

This map has many interesting features, such as:-

The map has pre-Columbian provenance.

The map shows the coastline of America.

The map shows accurate use of Longitude and Latitude.

The map-builders used 'Spherical geometry'.

The centre of the map is at the junction of the 23.5˚ parallel and the longitude of Alexandria.

SO ancients used a system of world navigation based upon spherical geometry......they may have used a grid system as we use today (longitude and lattitude)




David Zink's map of megalithic sites and other features from his book The Ancient Stones Speak, (Dutton, 1979).

(1) Giza, the Great Pyramid.

(9) Hudson Bay, present location of north magnetic pole

(11) Northern British Isles, Maes Howe, Ring of Brodgar, Callanish

(12) Mohenjo Daro—Rama Empire culture

(13) Xian Pyramids, largest in the world

(14) Southern Japan, "Dragon's Triangle," great seismic activity

(18) Bimini, Bahama's

(20) Algerian megalithic ruins

(21) Megaliths at Axum, the Coptic Christian center in Ethiopia

(25) Bangkok and Ankor Wat.

(26) Sarawak, Borneo, site of ancient megalithic structures

(28) Pohnpei Island, Micronesia, site of the megalithic city of Nan Madol

(35) Lima, Peru, boundary of the Nazca Plate, Pisco, the Candlestick of the Andes & the Nazca Lines

(41) Zimbabwe with its ancient mines & structures

(47) Easter Island and its megaliths

www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk...

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...



In 1768, as Captain Cook sailed from Tahiti, Captain Cook had an additional passenger on board his ship, a Tahitian navigator named Tupaia. Tupaia guided Cook 300 miles south to Rurutu, a small Polynesian island, proving he could navigate from his homeland to a distant island. Cook was amazed to find that Tupaia could always point in the exact direction in which Tahiti lay, without the use of the ship's charts. Sadly, Cook was never able to learn and document Tupaia's navigational techniques, for Tupaia, and many of Cook's crew, died of malaria in the Dutch East Indies. Unlike later visitors to the South Pacific, Cook understood that Polynesian navigators could guide canoes across the Pacific over great distances.


www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk...

edit on 28-12-2011 by newyorkee because: (no reason given)
edit on 28-12-2011 by newyorkee because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 03:33 PM
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So now we should move on to shared knowledge of the ancient world and take the argument to the understanding of the universe and its elements

there have been found in Scotland, Petro spheres (Stone worked into shapes) like the most famous large spheres found in Costa Rica......but these in Scotland show a unique understanding of the five elemental shapes of the universe as understood by the greeks and I quote



The Platonic Solids.
some researchers have suggested that carved stone balls were attempts to realise the Platonic solids. There are five (and only five) Platonic solids (regular polyhedra). These are: - the tetrahedron (4 faces), cube (6 faces), octahedron (8 faces), dodecahedron (12 faces) and icosahedron (20 faces). They get their name from the ancient Greek philosopher and mathematician Plato (c427-347BC) who wrote about them in his treatise, Timaeus.

The Greeks taught that these five solids were the core patterns of physical creation. Four of the solids were seen as the archetypal patterns behind the four elements (earth, air, fire, and water), while the fifth was held to be the pattern behind the life force itself, the Greeks' ether. These same shapes are now realised to be intimately related to the arrangements of protons and neutrons in the elements of the periodic table


www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk...

www.huntsearch.gla.ac.uk...*&browsemode=on&browseset=carved+stone+balls



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by InfoKartel
 


well now I´ll get to you sir....
first archaeology is not religious at all....second....you can still freak out all you want....I think I know what will happen and I am prepared as well as I can be.....third.....this is something I love to learn about and so do others....so talk about current events all you want....this stuff is probably more related to current mindsets for the power elite. I say this since it is this very knowledge that they keep from us that keeps us running in circles from a historical perspective.

IMO.....The tactics that TPTB have in their play book come from a vast and complete library of ancient knowledge and are not new at all....in fact I think this is like the 4th or 5th time they are doing this sort of thing to the world....they hold the world reset button and press it when we grow out of control....

Aztecs or Mexica as they call themselves, speak of this being the 5th version of the world, as all the others were destroyed acording to them.....want to learn more.....no....ok......see you in the 6th....or not....





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