Bush's Guard memo's are fake?

According to several sources, it appears that the documents CBS used appear to be fake. here are links, I don't know but would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

littlegreenfootballs.com...
www.spacetownusa.com...
www.powerlineblog.com...

Here's another link:

www.cnsnews.com...\Politics\archive\200409\POL20040909d.html

Here are some more links:
weeklystandard.com...


abcnews.go.com...

Perhaps this thread should have had some more explanatory text at the top?

Last night 60 Minutes showed docs that it claimed were written by one of Bush's ANG superiors. These memos -- which were said to have been stored in the officer's private files -- indicated that he had been pressured to cover up for Bush's lapses. They also indicated that Bush was unfit for duty.

Now, however, some typologists are claiming that the memos were written in two font styles that wouldn't have been used back in those days... and that the memos are likely to be forgeries. The son of the ANG officer is also saying that it is unlikely that his father would have kept these files.

I don't know, when I watched that it did seem kind of ify, but Bush is a liar anyways, so lying about/to a liar doesn't bother me. Bush probably doesn't know which lies he told are truth and vice versa.

from the CNS article:

"But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago."

there's a good discussion on this here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

for myself, i point out that the white house has disseminated these documents themselves, and has not disputed their credibility. (sources in thread above).

-koji K.

Originally posted by koji_K
there's a good discussion on this here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

for myself, i point out that the white house has disseminated these documents themselves, and has not disputed their credibility. (sources in thread above).

-koji K.

Koji- Just to clarify, CBS gave these to the White House who in turn released them to the public, right? The way your statement was worded I got the impression that the WH had these docs to begin with.

The White House distributed the four memos from 1972 and 1973 after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy.

and something I am curious about:

But previously unseen documents from Killian's PERSONAL (emphasis added) file obtained by 60 Minutes include a memorandum from May 1972, where Killian writes that Lt. Bush called him to talk about "how he can get out of coming to drill from now through November."

Is it SOP for a CO to keep personal files on a single individual no longer in his unit?

Originally posted by Bleys

Originally posted by koji_K
there's a good discussion on this here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

for myself, i point out that the white house has disseminated these documents themselves, and has not disputed their credibility. (sources in thread above).

-koji K.

Koji- Just to clarify, CBS gave these to the White House who in turn released them to the public, right? The way your statement was worded I got the impression that the WH had these docs to begin with.

Yes, I think that is the case. Sorry if I was unclear, I was just quickly summing up what I said elsewhere. I should have said, the White House has redisseminated the docs.

-koji K.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by koji_K]

Originally posted by Bleys

Is it SOP for a CO to keep personal files on a single individual no longer in his unit?

I'm just speaking from personal experience, but I was in the military for 10 years (4 Coast Guard, 6 Army) I got out last year. I have kept, and will continue to keep, every scrap of Army or Coast Guard paperwork. Why? Liabillity. If, somewhere along the line, the government says I didn't do something, or owe them money for something, I have the record. Every month I had to write evaluation reports on my soldiers, and write bad reports when they got in trouble. I keep them in case, somewhere along the line, some soldier says I did or didn't do something, I have my proof. That's just me. I know how the government works in regards to paperwork, maybe that CO was just as anal as I am. Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by curme
I keep them in case, somewhere along the line, some soldier says I did or didn't do something, I have my proof. That's just me. I know how the government works in regards to paperwork, maybe that CO was just as anal as I am. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks, I was not aware of that. It seemed strange that CBS would mention that these were "personal" records and not "personnel". But I guess the fact that one of these memos actually notes that it is was a "CYA" - kind of says it all.

Possibilty... But i doubt it. The man who chose and signed him on for the National Gaurd made direct comments about the issue. The Special Treatment issue is now very hot.
Understood that speaks little about the documents themselves but with these statements his credibility is really coming into question now.
I have a feeling Bush is now wishing Swiftboat Veterans against Kerry and everyone would have left Kerry'ss past lay. Now with those comments Demo. are retaliating and finding things Bush wished would never be brought to light.

Wasn't all of this hashed over several times before? I know for a fact back when he was running for Govenor of my state, Texas, this all came out and he whipped Anne Richard's booty inspite of it.

Seems like this is old news unless I am missing some new revelation about the Shrub...

m...

i was just talking about this at work. one of my coworkers said the person who released this information is also the head of kerry's committe. it's also kinda fishy that these come out the day after kerry's numbers drop in the poles.

Originally posted by curme

Originally posted by Bleys

Is it SOP for a CO to keep personal files on a single individual no longer in his unit?

I'm just speaking from personal experience, but I was in the military for 10 years (4 Coast Guard, 6 Army) I got out last year. I have kept, and will continue to keep, every scrap of Army or Coast Guard paperwork.

If I kept every scrap of paperwork from the last 20+ years of my military service, I would not be able to get through the front door of my house. I keep only the important things, training certificates, check ride paperwork, a single copy of each travel order and the like, and circular file the rest. I still have two full 4 drawer file cabinets...No way this guy kept these memos...they meant nothing at the time.

It's not possible for the typewriters of the era to make that type of superscript "th", it's a word processing feature of modern personal computing software.

Also... Typewriters never made these types of "curly quotes". They're an attribute of modern font-sets used on personal computers.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Originally posted by curme

Originally posted by Bleys

Is it SOP for a CO to keep personal files on a single individual no longer in his unit?

I'm just speaking from personal experience, but I was in the military for 10 years (4 Coast Guard, 6 Army) I got out last year. I have kept, and will continue to keep, every scrap of Army or Coast Guard paperwork.

If I kept every scrap of paperwork from the last 20+ years of my military service, I would not be able to get through the front door of my house. I keep only the important things, training certificates, check ride paperwork, a single copy of each travel order and the like, and circular file the rest. I still have two full 4 drawer file cabinets...No way this guy kept these memos...they meant nothing at the time.

Were you in charge of airmen? And if so, the evaluation reports (I don't know what the Air Force calls them) that you wrote for them, and the disciplinary actions, do you keep those? And if no, why not? Couldn't an airman say, "Well MSG Affirmative Action didn't tell me, so it's his fault. " Couldn't that open you to litigation? If someone tries to claims VA benefits, couldn't they point to you as the reason?

EDIT: Typo

[edit on 9-9-2004 by curme]

this link is from the ATSNN thread....

From an apparent expert on typewriters:

Sorry, but due to excessive hits, this page is temporarily out of service.

Please check back after the election.

For those who want my opinion...the documents appear to be done in Word, and then copied repeatedly to make them "fuzzy". They use features that were not available on office typewriters the 1970s, specifically the combination of proportional spacing with superscript font. The IBM Executive has proportional spacing, but used fixed type bars. The Selectric has changeable type elements, but fixed spacing (some models could be selected at 10 or 12 pitch, but that's all). The Selectric Composer was not an office typewriter, but apparently did use proportional spacing. These were very expensive machines, used by printing offices, not administrative offices.

Here are scans of the Courier 12 font, and the Prestige Elite 72 font. Both were commonly used, and are sort of close to the font in the documents, but not quite. Notice that they are not proportionally spaced, so the typing looks very different from that on the memos. There is a superscript available for numbers, as used with footnotes, on the Symbol type balls. These balls were generally used for academics, such as preparing scientific and mathematical papers. I can find no "th" superscript in any of the IBM literature I have.

These are scans from a mid-1970s IBM Selectric Typewriter Type Styles brochure, IBM publication G542-0053-7, which does not appear to be explicitly copywrited.

At least my low opinion of TV news remains intact.

the actual link is here:

www.selectric.org...

Originally posted by curme

Were you in charge of airmen? And if so, the evaluation reports (I don't know what the Air Force calls them) that you wrote for them, and the disciplinary actions, do you keep those? And if no, why not? Couldn't an airman say, "Well MSG Affirmative Action didn't tell me, so it's his fault. " Couldn't that open you to litigation? If someone tries to claims VA benefits, couldn't they point to you as the reason?

EDIT: Typo

[edit on 9-9-2004 by curme]

OPR's and EPR's are kept in the member�s official records, and the member must request a copy from the personnel office, what we used to call CBPO. Disciplinary actions less than Article 15�s are kept in the individual's PIF (Personal Information File) in the unit orderly room, or UIF (Unfavorable Information File) if the CC decides to open one. The member may request copies. The member is responsible to ask for them, and no "litigation" may be pursued against a supervisor if he does not do so. I have copies of all my performance reports, as well as other documents, just not all of them. Flying time records, for instance. When I get a new rip, I ensure it is correct, and toss the old one, just like my LES. I'm sorry I didn't list every type of paperwork I keep for you, curme. That you were in the service at one time, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were smart enough to realize I was only listing several types for expedience sake. I wont make that mistake again...

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]

Originally posted by TenaciousGuy
I don't know, when I watched that it did seem kind of ify, but Bush is a liar anyways, so lying about/to a liar doesn't bother me. Bush probably doesn't know which lies he told are truth and vice versa.

I see you don't emulate Michael Moore in avatar only!

Who let this get out? Didn't anyone in the Democratic Party make sure of the authenticity? Staunch Democrats are still going to attest they're real, Republicans will have a field day with the Dem's assertions that they play dirty tricks. The people that really matter, undecided voters are going to see sympathy for Bush. It's still early September and this election feels likes its late October. It's gonna be an interesting couple of months!