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Bush AWOL, Refused Direct Order, Suspended. (UPDATE: Documents may be forged)

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posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 10:47 PM
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This is what I got when I went the site Indy found (I'm not sure if it was the same when Indy found it or others may have seen it):





Sorry, but due to excessive hits, this page is temporarily out of service.

Please check back after the election.

For those who want my opinion...the documents appear to be done in Word, and then copied repeatedly to make them "fuzzy". They use features that were not available on office typewriters the 1970s, specifically the combination of proportional spacing with superscript font. The IBM Executive has proportional spacing, but used fixed type bars. The Selectric has changeable type elements, but fixed spacing (some models could be selected at 10 or 12 pitch, but that's all). The Selectric Composer was not an office typewriter, but apparently did use proportional spacing. These were very expensive machines, used by printing offices, not administrative offices.

Here are scans of the Courier 12 font, and the Prestige Elite 72 font. Both were commonly used, and are sort of close to the font in the documents, but not quite. Notice that they are not proportionally spaced, so the typing looks very different from that on the memos. There is a superscript available for numbers, as used with footnotes, on the Symbol type balls. These balls were generally used for academics, such as preparing scientific and mathematical papers. I can find no "th" superscript in any of the IBM literature I have.

These are scans from a mid-1970s IBM Selectric Typewriter Type Styles brochure, IBM publication G542-0053-7, which does not appear to be explicitly copywrited.

At least my low opinion of TV news remains intact.



Having looked at the documents, they do look suspiciously like something MS Word could do with Courier font. It still seems odd the White House hasn't pointed this out yet, though. I wonder what intrigue is afoot here?

BTW- I'm pretty sure there's a way to turn off auto superscripting in MS Word. It's in the program options somewhere.

-koji K.

It's possible they are reproductions of original documents.



posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by Johannmon
Valid or not who cares if Bush was Awol for a month or two 30 years or so ago. What difference does that make today. NONE!! Think about it people. What if every thing you did 30 years ago was held under a microscope. Would any little indiscretions appear? For the vast majority of people they would...


Certainly so for the vast majority but are we considering them to be president? NO!!! We must winnow out those with indiscretions that relate to present circumstances because we hold leaders to HIGHER STANDARDS. Besides, every person is the sum of their total experience. And Bush completely embraces the fact that he is a "war president" (his quotes). So this matter is absolutely germane to the question. In addition, he ducked out of actual service by getting into the Guard in the first place. And he couldn't even complete his obligation to his cushy little appointment there! What place does such a man have in commanding the military?!?



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:17 AM
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Curiouser and curiouser...



In a telephone interview from her Texas home, Killian's widow, Marjorie Connell, described the records as "a farce," saying she was with her husband until the day he died in 1984 and he did not "keep files." She said her husband considered Bush "an excellent pilot."


and



CBS spokeswoman Kelli Edwards declined to respond to questions raised by experts who examined copies of the papers at the request of The Washington Post, or to provide the names of the experts CBS consulted. Experts interviewed by The Post pointed to a series of telltale signs suggesting that the documents were generated by a computer or word processor rather than the typewriters in widespread use by Bush's National Guard unit.


So we now have a pissed off widow who says her husband didn't write these and CBS refusing to name their experts or respond to the discrepancies others have noted in the memos.


Source: MSNBC



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:48 AM
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The way this is unfolding, and the nature of the events so far, is beginning to remind me a lot of the forged prisoner abuse photos the British "Daily Mail" featured and insisted were real for quite some time.

-koji K.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:59 AM
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This could be some kind of test. Someone, presumably at CBS, wanted to see how the White House would react to the release of purported documents. This might lead to further information somehow, or could be an attempt by CBS to gain ratings for a short while.

I simply can't believe CBS would pass these by, if they are forgeries, so easily, without some reason. But maybe I give the media more credit than it deserves.

I also find the White House's reaction itself kind of odd. They are either hoping this will play out knowing they are forgeries, or aren't yet sure they are forgeries, which is the weird scenario because if the facts the documents purport to prove are not the truth, they would have to know they were forgeries and feel confident to call them such.

-koji K.

[edit on 10-9-2004 by koji_K]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by Jazzerman
Great find...and its an official document from the White House listed at the end of the article. Now, its going to be pretty hard for him to explain this. Of course, I know certain members of this board will tell us how these documents are false, etc. and defend Bush until their last breath...mark my words!


Marked.


Originally posted by koji_K
Yup. It would be interesting to trawl the board for posts saying "he wasn't AWOL" when it was just so unbelievably obvious he was. If I only so I can say "I told you so" to every one of them.
Not very mature, but then, neither is our "President".

-koji K.


Go on. Say it.


ABC News:The White House is declining to comment on the veracity of the documents. Many Democrats are worried that if they are found to be forgeries, it will be a setback for Sen. John Kerry's campaign to defeat Bush in November.


One can only hope... If proven to be true.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 02:00 AM
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Thank God for scanning tunneling microscopes. Having carefully scrutinized the document 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, I believe we now have uncovered the smoking gun. I submit to you the following:

First, note carefully, in Figure 1) below, the small dot in the lower left corner of the document in question.


Figure 1)


Now, in Figure 2) below, may I bring your attention to the same dot noted in Figure 1), but now magnified by 6,000 times.

Figure 2)



Case closed. Politics is a dirty game, isn't it?



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 06:00 AM
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It's amazing to watch this thread evolve, as the information changes.
Suddenly a different "population" of posters emerge.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 06:38 AM
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www.drudgereport.com...

The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being privately "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
This will be an interesting day.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 06:47 AM
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Wow what a story. You know, my grandfather always said "they're all crooks down there inside the beltway". Republican and Democrat alike. Guess the name of the game is, who catches who?



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 06:57 AM
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More on this... Critical memos on Bush's Guard service faked?

The morning after the "60 Minutes II" airing, the Internet was buzzing with claims that the documents were forged. Powerlineblog first aired speculation that there was persuasive evidence from the typefaces and spacing that the documents supposedly prepared in the age of typewriters in the early 1970s showed the unmistakable characteristics of computer printing.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Authenticity of Bush's Guard papers questioned

Experts consulted by news organizations pointed to typographical and formatting questions about four documents as they considered the possibility that they were forged. The widow of the National Guard officer whose signature is on the bottom of the documents also disputed their authenticity.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Are negative Bush Guard records fakes?

The dispute over the documents' authenticity came as Democrats stepped up their criticism of Bush's service with the National Guard between 1968 � and 1974. The Democratic National Committee sought to fuel the controversy Thursday by holding a news conference at which Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa pointed to the documents as a fresh indictment of Bush's credibility.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
New Bush documents forged?

Killan's son, Gary, who served in the National Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said one of the memos, signed by his father, appeared legitimate. But he doubted his father would have written another, unsigned memo that said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Guard memos on Bush fake, says squadron leader's son

Killian said his father, who died in 1984, could barely type and usually assigned typing duties to a secretary. "It would have been against his own self-interest to keep a memo like that on file," Killian said. "It was just not in his nature to do that."

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
False Documentation?

Marjorie Connell � widow of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the reported author of memos suggesting that Bush did not meet the standards for the Texas Air National Guard � questioned whether the documents were real. "The wording in these documents is very suspect to me," she told ABC News Radio in an exclusive phone interview from her Texas home. She added that she "just can't believe these are his words."

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
Is It a Hoax?

There are several reasons these experts are skeptical of the authenticity of the Killian memos. First the typographic spacing is proportional, as is routine with professional typesetting and computer typography, not monospace, as was common in typewriters in the 1970s. (In proportional type, thin letters like "i" and "l" are spaced closer together than thick letters like "W" and "M". In monospace, all the letter widths are the same.) Second, the font appears to be identical to the Times New Roman font that is the default typeface in Microsoft Word and other modern word processing programs. According to Flynn, the font is not listed in the Haas Atlas--the definitive encyclopedia of typewriter type fonts. Third, the apostrophes are curlicues of the sort produced by word processors on personal computers, not the straight vertical hashmarks typical of typewriters. Finally, in some references to Bush's unit--the 111thFighter Interceptor Squadron--the "th" is a superscript in a smaller size than the other type. Again, this is typical (and often done automatically) in modern word processing programs. Although several experts allow that such a rendering might have been theoretically possible in the early 1970s, it would have been highly unlikely. Superscripts produced on typewriters--the numbers preceding footnotes in term papers, for example--were almost always in the same size as the regular type.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 06:58 AM
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CBS has gone "Newsmax" and is just making stuff up now?

It's About Time!


No, seriously if they got played here...well then they got played. That means someone attempted to defraud them either to "get Bush" or get CBS. It makes me want to go back and look at the AP "Bush Backers Boo Clinton" story from yet another angle.

If we get a third instance of "whoops the media lied" in the next few weeks, I'll be fairly convinced something's afoot and it's not that "everybody's out to get Bush" but that there's a concerted effort to discredit the free press (for some reason).



[edit on 10-9-2004 by RANT]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 08:17 AM
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Dan "Rather Biased" a hoaxer? Say it isn't so... Does this mean he's going to be Banned, or just put on Global Ignore? Wait, Dan is on CBS... he's already on Global Ignore...



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 08:31 AM
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Wow RANT....you say its about time?!?
LOL, like wtf dude?
I guess your another one of those type people who say that ifin' "we" don't vote for Kerry and his healthcare plan for America, we are flamin' idiots too??!
Dude.....its called LYING, FABRICATING, a BLUNDER........but you and others deem that its about time?!

I hear ya, but certainly don't feel ya.

Might want to read this:


From there it was off to the races. Once anyone who had had experience writing and typing in the 1970s began examining the documents, it was impossible not to see some weird anachronisms that suggested they had been crafted not on a 1970s typewriter, but using Microsoft Word.

Charles Johnson, who runs the wonderful littlegreenfootballs.com, simply typed one of the memos over using Microsoft Word's New Times Roman font and, lo and behold, the document came out exactly identical to the one on the CBS site, down to the letter spacing.

The documents contain such features as superscript lettering, which is done automatically by Microsoft Word, and curly quotation marks. A brief glance at a Web site called selectric.org, run by an amateur typewriter fanatic, reveals dozens of IBM electric typefaces � and none of them has curly quotation marks.

By 3 o'clock, the very careful and honest Jim Geraghty, who produces invaluable material every day on nationalreview.com's Kerry Spot, was saying flatly, "CBS had better have one heck of a defense for this."

CBS'S BIG BLUNDER?-- Dan Rather's Big Lie!

RANT?
Heard or seen anything on Dan's or CBS's response to these findings? They made any comment at all? Let me guess....their sticking to what they have supposedly dredged, errr, discovered, eh?

Question:
Is there supposed to be a significant difference between CBS and NewsMax RANT? Since when did CBS have to compete with the likes of NewsMax or even be like them? Think about, k?




seekerof

[edit on 10-9-2004 by Seekerof]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 09:07 AM
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Does it really matter if these documents are genuine? The seed has been planted that they are false, that's all a lot of people need. What if CBS's experts say they are real, and Fox's experts say they are false? Who are you going to believe?



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof LOL, like wtf dude?
Whoa... slow down... this is ATSNN, not the mud pit. We can say with certainty these documents have been fabricated. What remains is who created them and why. Given what's happening, there are easily argued motives for both "sides" to have a hand in the creation of these fake documents.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 09:36 AM
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You guys like digging up stuff. You don't even have to try with Kerry. Just glance at his record in the senate. LoL ... It is ridiculous. ... anyhow ... what if George W. Bush ... was doing something that he could not let anyone know about and there are people above him right now saying that he can't say where he was for those coupole of months??? Would you know if are president had done something back in 73 ... and the government was trying to cover it up ?
Hey someone take htis and run with it I wanna see a thread on it later .. Peace .



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

We can say with certainty these documents have been fabricated. What remains is who created them and why. Given what's happening, there are easily argued motives for both "sides" to have a hand in the creation of these fake documents.


We can? Apparentally the Whitehouse doesn't yet share your certainty. I just think the verdict is still out. I mean, if they are fake, why didn't the WH say so? Unless, they wanted to build momentum. I'm just open to any possibilty, and not ready to call the case closed. Maybe I will by the end of the day?



The White House itself did not contest the memos' authenticity and handed them out to reporters. It continued on Thursday to handle questions based on the memos, particularly about the accusation that Bush had failed to take a physical "as ordered." The physical was required for Bush to remain a pilot.
.
The New York Times
IHT



EDIT: I was just thinking, if the Whitehouse waits until Friday afternoon to call foul, then that cuts Kerry out of the news cycle until Monday, and the last thing people hear before the weekend is how Bush is a victum.

[edit on 10-9-2004 by curme]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 09:47 AM
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No outsiders understand just how CBS is "Dan" oriented and how the white house has treated him.

Its simple. At CBS... Dan is God. There is no higher authority, he gets what he wants because he's in charge and thats how it goes, for 30 years he's nailed the coffin in everyone seeking to take over him or put him down. Cronkite, Connie Chung and even John Roberts have all been slapped around by his reign.

Having personally spoken to one of his Aides, this man is not one to shy away in terms of crisis and his silence is frankly unsettling.

I do believe these are fakes, but they're fakes not made by democrats but by Republicans. This is one very very obvious fudge up and if you're hiring someone to do a forgery they're not going to sit and type away on MS word. Bush has too much to gain from this.

Perhaps we should be calling the truthfulness of the accusations and not the source, the White House has not yet commented.

A frost is settling over Washinton today.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 10:56 AM
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This sure looks like a case of misguided loyalty on the part of zealots within the Democratic Party. We know there are questions on the part of both men's records - that neither are willing to answer directly. I think someone created those memos relying on scuttlebutt, which would also explain why CBS was able to "verify" their general content.

But I gotta say - this could conceivably put the nail in Kerry's coffin.

I speculated earlier that the WH's lack of response could be one of two things: 1) shell shock and strategy sessions were being conducted to downplay the situation OR 2) they knew the memos were false and they simply allowed the press and the Dems to make fools of themselves. (Tom Harkin has definitely got to be regretting his nasty comments yesterday.)

Kerry has only chance here to separate his campaign from the actions of a few loyalists. He needs to make a statement (similar to the one Bush made last week) that Bush's military service (or the lack thereof) is not an issue and the focus of both campaigns should be to discuss issues that are pertinent in the here and now.

.



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