Stop teaching about the holocaust so that children see Germany in a better light, says Lord Baker

reply to post by Helixer

You honestly can't take a debate about the Holocaust. You will dismiss the Rwandan Holocaust by saying that it "watersdown" the Jewish Holocaust. You get vicerally abusive and I have been perfectly reasonable with you.

Eric Fromm referred to this as Fascism with a smiling face, putting on a mask of reasonabless to cover up irrational behaviour. viscerally abusive? thin skin more like it.
and you are not being reasonable i see this nazi wheedling every 10-15 years or so.

We are having an important discussion about why we should give Holocaust education to you kids when it traumatizes young children and it does not stop holocausts. I pointed out that even the victims of the Holocaust, Jews, are some of the biggest holocaust and ethnic cleansing perps.

i'll be 45 next month "kid". back in school we had social studies as a subject;it was basically whitewashed history and only the good bits of other cultures, you are the result of such policies. and once again you continue with the jew-baiting, in addition to your false accusations, re rwanda and similar occurences resulting from western greedheads wanting something for nothing.
Kissinger plan to transform North Africa and Middle East into Turkmenistan

Kissinger's food for peace scheme
NSSM200

I say it is better to teach children ethics and morality, an awareness of injustice, critical thinking and knowledge of the universality of human suffering.

how can anyone become aware of injustice when you and others keep trying to sweep it under the rug?
as for ethics and morality: Hitler was pretty big on that as well, so which ethical and moral system will be force-fed to the kids in school if you have your way?

There is nothing "stupid" about these serious and important issues.

certainly not, what's stupid is selectively ignoring my arguments because they get in the way of your delusions.

but hey keep trolling i'll keep coming back to point out something is missing upstairs and bump the thread, thanks for your help in this regard.

"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "Reality." But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts... their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"
- Uchiha Itachi

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
reply to post by Helixer

 

certainly not, what's stupid is selectively ignoring my arguments because they get in the way of your delusions.

but hey keep trolling i'll keep coming back to point out something is missing upstairs and bump the thread, thanks for your help in this regard.

Your ad hominem attack is fairly comprehensive; you have accused me of everything from Jew hate to having mental health issues as in the above quote. You go ahead and do that because it means nothing.

Central to my argument is that Holocaust education is a waste of time when it comes to preventing future holocausts. You even accused me of "watering down" the memory of the Jewish Holocaust by using the term to decribe the mass killings in Rwanda.

Do you think black people's mass murder could ever be described as a holocaust or is that term reserved for Jews only?

Would it not be better that the resources spent on Jew only holocaust be spent on the whole of humanity? Why not teach ethics and morality so there will never be another holocaust and ethnic cleansing of peoples?

As for you threatening to hound me because I broach "taboo" subjects for debate, I would expect nothing less from you. In free societies, there are no taboo subjects and everything needs to be questioned.

reply to post by Helixer


i was attacking your arguing for ignorance, not you personally.
why would you feel alluded to?

as for hounding you? Lol, paranoid much? what makes you so special that somebody would want to hound you? bait much?

have some more genocide, this is 20th century alone good luck blaming the jews, or covering it up: www.historyplace.com...

Adolf Hitler to his Army commanders, August 22, 1939:
"Thus for the time being I have sent to the East only my 'Death's Head Units' with the orders to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of Polish race or language. Only in such a way will we win the vital space that we need. Who still talks nowadays about the Armenians?"

The term 'Genocide' was coined by Polish writer and attorney, Raphael Lemkin, in 1941 by combining the Greek word 'genos' (race) with the Latin word 'cide' (killing). Genocide as defined by the United Nations in 1948 means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, including: (a) killing members of the group (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group (e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Recent to Past Occurrences

Bosnia-Herzegovina: 1992-1995 - 200,000 Deaths
Rwanda: 1994 - 800,000 Deaths
Pol Pot in Cambodia: 1975-1979 - 2,000,000 Deaths
Nazi Holocaust: 1938-1945 - 6,000,000 Deaths
Rape of Nanking: 1937-1938 - 300,000 Deaths
Stalin's Forced Famine: 1932-1933 - 7,000,000 Deaths
Armenians in Turkey: 1915-1918 - 1,500,000 Deaths

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger





[off topic image removed]


loooved the thinly veiled jew hate but hey now we all know what your stake in all this is

Yes,yes, yes let's simply sweep it all under the rug and forget about it, as you propose, then when everybody keeps tripping over the crap pile under the rug you can say:

"i dunno"
"wasn't me"
"faggedabouditt, just get over it. [smirk]"

edit on Mon Dec 26 2011 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)

I have been a member of ATS for a few days and read a great deal of anti-Muslim and anti-Christian material hear and anything goes but personal abuse and T&C violation.

I figured that ATS is an open forum where "Deny Ignorance" is the ethos so I decided to fill the gaps in by debating Zionist Jews, the Holocaust and the Jewish persecution of Christians. I have had the thread about the persecution of Christians frozen, my comments combed through and hit for 2000 ATS points.

In meantime individuals like DerepentLEstranger have abused me, used the crudest insults accused me of paranoid and used disingenuous dissembly when debating.

All of this does not matter because the truth is out. There are no taboo subjects to talk about and it is important to acknowledge that people should be taught about ethics, morality, an awareness of injustice instead of Jew only suffering.

We are all human beings and we experience suffering in the same way. This does not mean that the Jewish Holocaust is "watered-down" as DerepentLEstranger claims when we discuss the Rwandan Holocaust. That is a racist argument.

Freedom of speech is important and bullying to shut down debate is a crime.

Peace and love to you DerepentLEstranger

reply to post by Helixer




fine, we get it, let's honor the memory of the victims of genocide by hushing it up
then when the undereducated become victims their selves, they won't see it coming. noted

i've abused you? RLMFAO see that little blue rectangle that says member? it's a menu, just go to the post where i abused you, select and click alert and complain. don't get pissed off at me or make wild accusations just because you failed to do your homework, in more ways than one.

my designated moderator is in the house and has only called me to attention for excessive quoting, and the trap card pic so...

i will soon be a year old here and given the replies i've received from some,especially the Zio-nazis, authoritarians and the nihilistic-materialists here, i predict you won't be here much longer, but don't blame me or ATS, but yourself and your "teachers" for that.

"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "Reality." But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts... their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"
Uchiha Itachi

and feel free to have the last word

Such a wrong approach.. They should still teach the history, but instead of blaming it all on the Germans, they should focus on who provided the weapons worldwide.

Originally posted by vasaga
Such a wrong approach.. They should still teach the history, but instead of blaming it all on the Germans, they should focus on who provided the weapons worldwide.

see that's what i mean:
don't' cover it up, but dig deeper and expose more.

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


No worries then. It is only a matter of time you and your designated moderator, whatever means, silence another critic of zionism, Holocaustinism, Mossad, Israeli criminality, human organs trading, the pornographic industry, spying, assassinations, anti-Ron Paul zionist Jews, racism, fascism, racial supremacy...etc

All these stem from the exceptionalism created by a dangerous Holocaust education programme that does not prevent other holocausts, terrorises children and demonises the German people.

Not healthy at all.

Originally posted by Helixer

......t Rwandan elite who were French educated and taught about the holocaust yet they killed their on compatriots en-mass. .....

So since the french education of the Rwandan elite, failed to prevent the holocaust....that now means children in the UK should not learn about the holocaust??

Do you realize the UK is not France, nor is is Rwanda?

reply to post by Helixer


Stop teaching children an important part of the history of the world? No, that is one of the darkest and most important times in our history. Ww2 and everything about it. We do not need to ignore what happened. That won't do anything aside from make the next generation even more stupid.

We have to teach what happened, how the world changed and what has changed about Germany.

If we edit out all the bad parts of history, you are going to wind up with a very small book.

Educate the children to the truth. Bottom line.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Stop teaching children an important part of the history of the world? No, that is one of the darkest and most important times in our history. Ww2 and everything about it. We do not need to ignore what happened. That won't do anything aside from make the next generation even more stupid

.

Where did I say that I wanted to stop kids from learning history

I said that Holocaust education has not stopped holocaust because we have had several since 1945.

We have to teach what happened, how the world changed and what has changed about Germany.

There is no problem in teaching the Holocaust as part of general history class but not as a specific Holocaust education programme because it traumatises children and does not prevent new holocausts like Rwanda. Read my first comment.

If we edit out all the bad parts of history, you are going to wind up with a very small book.

Educate the children to the truth. Bottom line..

I agree so you are preaching to the choir.

Is it really necessary to teach very young children all the gory details of what allegedly went on in those prison camps?
Do they also teach that 40 million Russians died as a result of some political ideal?
Do they teach both sides of the story - ever?
Do they teach that Hitler was in the process of aiding in the creation of Israel by sending many Jews there?
Do they teach exactly what the problem was with the Jews in Germany?
Do they teach that the Jews had declared war on Germany?
Do you think this just might have been a bit too much to tolerate?
And so they were rounded up and put into camps. Kind of like our FEMA camps huh?

Does anyone ever take into account that the reason the Jews were rounded up and put into camps was basicly the same as the reason the US rounded up Japanese during WWII. They call it 'National Security'. Our supply lines to these camps was not bombed to smitherenes and we had no need to use them as forced labor, so they did not die of Typhus or any other plague, nor from overwork. They did lose everything that they had ever worked for, as well as many years of peaceful living.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by buster2010

 

Really???

So my cousins grandmother is sitting alive and well right now with tattoos on her arm, who lost her whole entire family to Auschwitz, who survived Auschwitz herself, should just get over it?

Troll.

I'm not trolling anything. They are not removing it from history you can learn about it at any local library. How long should present day Germany keep paying for what the past did?

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by buster2010

 

Really???

So my cousins grandmother is sitting alive and well right now with tattoos on her arm, who lost her whole entire family to Auschwitz, who survived Auschwitz herself, should just get over it?

Troll.

I'm not trolling anything. They are not removing it from history you can learn about it at any local library. How long should present day Germany keep paying for what the past did?

I don't think you are trolling either. I agree that not traumatising children with stories of the Holocaust does not mean the end of learning it. It is just not healthy to assault children with horror stories especially when many of the prominant Holocaust survivors are fraudsters;

Moving Holocaust memoir exposed as fantasy

The saying "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" seems to be one that publishers could do well to familiarise themselves with after yet another fake memoir scandal. The latest heart-rending true story of triumph over adversity to be exposed as fiction is the Holocaust survivor's tale Angel at the Fence, hailed by Oprah Winfrey as "the single greatest love story" she had ever heard.

www.guardian.co.uk...


There seems to be new Holocaust survivors being born every day and most are fake. No Holocaust education programme has stopped recent holocausts such as Rwanda.

reply to post by SGTSECRET


Well my kids were taught about the holocaust and the role of the Nazi's. Asa matter of fact we have films Schindler's list and The Boat that have shown the difference between Germans and Nazis and Also between German soldiers and Genocidal Nazis. Lord Baker has over simplified everyhting. It is alos down to the parents help in the education of their children. I was horrified when my eldest came home and told me that the Jews killed Christ. As a non Xtian I had to explain his death was due to politics. I did not go into whetheror not he existed I gave here a better take that was more age -appropriate.

Whoa here are some interesting questions to consider.

1) How many brits drink german beer?

2) How many British children learn German at school?

3) How many Brits drive german cars?

4) How many Brits ASPIRE to own a german car?

5) How many British have holidayed in Germany?

6) How many Brits have dated or married Germans?

If you have any understanding of these figures you would realise that no-one holds modern germany accountable for the holocaust. Most Germans are ashamed of their past but have moved on?

Lord Baker is blowing smoke up his own behind!

An open letter to Lord Baker and the Paper that quote him,

Sira

Given that you wishto Improve the standing of our country and you obviously have know idea of the problems we face here is a brief list of topics or greater importance than "not mentioning the war".

1) Should we stay in the Eu or leave?

2) How will we bring back manufacturing to the UK/

3) How to we go back to mass employment?

4a) How do we stop these idiotic wars?

4b) Why don't we teach our kids about our first disasterous military expedition in Afghanistan?

5) How to reduce our man made contribution to global warming.

6) What was the causes of the civil unrested seem in the summer of 2011?

7) What kind of country will our children inherit?

8) What about those poor saps (i.e.soldiers) who did the queen and country in various recent wars? will successive British government stop dumping on them??

Once you have resolved these questions please feel free to contact me ansd discuss my consultancy fee for boosting your credibility way beyond that of Salmon Chops Cameron.

Yours

Tiger5

The teaching of history is important, especially in a nation such as the United Kingdom which has made such a major contribution to our world. They've got an awful lot of their own history to teach, let alone anyone else's.

But I do disagree with Lord Baker. The Second World War is the pivotal event of the 20th Century, it's the one event which defines where we are today. Nor can you brush the Nazis under the carpet, like an embarrassment to our modern day European sensibilities. So you can't just trim the Nazis & the Holocaust from your history curriculum in order to teach your children about Boudica, Queen of the Iceni instead.

What the British education system can do is better emphasise the British contribution to the war & how the sacrifice of many millions of British people helped end the Nazi regime and bring the Holocaust to it's end.

Of course, education in the United Kingdom is a devolved matter, it's for the Parliaments in the constituent nations which make up the United Kingdom to decide how they run their own education systems. The Westminster Parliament's remit runs only to England, not Britain.

And, funnily enough, that's where Lord Baker falls down. He is so ignorant of his own history that he thinks the words Britain and England are somehow interchangeable, that one equates to the other. He talks in that article about "the British civil war". I might be French, but surely he means "the English civil war" ? That old fashioned imperialism he demonstrates, from a bygone era, is perhaps the greatest justification of all for the devolution of education to the national parliaments.

I'm sorry there's so much personal rancour in this thread.

reply to post by LeBombDiggity


OMG!!! Nobody is saying that history should not be taught!!!!

The argument is that the Holocaust education courses put Germany in a bad light ----> Lord Baker
That children should be taught ethics, morality, an awareness of injustice and critical thinking instead ----> me
That Holocaust education traumatises children ----> research
That the Holocaust education system has not prevented new holocausts -----> Rwanda

Originally posted by Helixer
reply to post by LeBombDiggity

 

OMG!!! Nobody is saying that history should not be taught!!!!

That the Holocaust education system has not prevented new holocausts -----> Rwanda

Actually your statement should read
"The Holocaust education system IN THE UK, has not prevented new holocausts in areas OTHER THAN THE UK.

Remember - this board is not UK only, others from many other parts of the world post here as well.