Ancient Catholic Document Sheds New Light on Magi Story

This newly found document is translated from ancient Syriac and contains the prayers and rituals of the ancient Magi. It supposedly was copied from what was a FIRST HAND account of the Magi visit to the Holy Family. If I'm reading this correctly - it's one generation removed from the original Magi document. (allegedly)

Catholic News

It is an eighth-century copy of a story first written down nearly half a millennium earlier, less than 100 years after the Gospel of Matthew, the original source of the Bible story.

The newly translated tale differs in major respects from Matthew's very brief account.The Magi of the Bible have long been associated with Persian mystics, but those in The Revelation are from much farther afield - from the semi-mythical land of Shir, now associated with ancient China.

They are said to be the descendants of Seth, the third son of Adam, and to belong to a sect that believed in silent prayer. Perhaps the biggest divergence from the traditional Nativity story is that according to The Revelation there were "scores" of Magi.

Scripture says the magi went to where 'the house where the child Jesus was'. They didn't show up when he was a baby. They showed up when he was a toddler. That makes him between 1-2 years old. Harod had all the male babies killed who were under two .. so that means he and the Magi believed Jesus to be under two.

Anyways .. COOL IF TRUE.

Very cool info!

Hmmm Now I wonder what the relations might be, even the irony of it...

For some time, many people have been trying to find the correct time of birth for Jesus. The only real information that I've seen over the many years, is the recorded information of a a supernova or something similar. The ironic part is, that information was documented in China all those years ago. So, sages of china, possibly even the same sages that documented this supernova 2k years ago, have more in common... they are possibly the very same magi.


S&F

reply to post by FlyersFan


Yeah if you read the Bible looking at the details it's not the magi that show up at Jesus' birth. It's the shepards in the field. The magis don't come until later, and it never mentions how many there were. But while most people assume there were three, there are extra biblical texts that number them at 12 or 13 or whatever. People just assumed to make movies about it and what not. It just says they came from the East too. But never says where from.

But Jesus didn't start teaching until he was 30 and they didn't start writing the gospel for maybe another couple decades after that. So, that's why the story isn't very detailed. Nobody probably remembered the details lol.

very cool info indeed , the Vatican archives are full with secrets and good for those who can lay their hands on them
I feel a bit nervous answering in the religious section
but I have never heard of ‘the semi-mythical land of Shir’ before
anybody with some more information on shir ? is it in the bible ? it wouldn’t refer to shinar ?

Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. It doesn't sound like 3 guys on camels would be much of a concern ....More than likely it was a large contingent with allot of fanfare ..Carrying expensive commodities, one would think it would be unwise to travel over a long distance without the ability to defend yourselves and cargo against the crooks of that day .....peace

Most likely the Magi were in fact members of the caste of Megistines from Parthia. One of their duties was keeping track of all possible heirs to the Parthian throne, and since the ruling dynasty of Parthia, the Arsacids, was Davidic, Jesus was a legitimate heir to the throne of Parthia. Now you may guess where He spent his "lost" years...

Well this is proof the Bible is a true story? Because what if it's forged? That means the church lost credibility

Originally posted by the2ofusr1
Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. It doesn't sound like 3 guys on camels would be much of a concern ....More than likely it was a large contingent with allot of fanfare ..Carrying expensive commodities, one would think it would be unwise to travel over a long distance without the ability to defend yourselves and cargo against the crooks of that day .....peace

What is striking is this, if these were men living near Jerusalem then they would have known Herod was king, but the men said "where is he who is born king of the Jews". Apparently they did not recognize Herod as king, but knew who the Jews were. Also, by saying "king of the Jews", that indicates they accepted him as more than just a prince. It is not unreasonable for emissaries to come see the children of kings, but they did not ask for the current ruling king. They were taken to Herod, and then when they were leaving, they were warned about Herod, so they decided to go a different way.

That means several things, they did not recognize Roman authority, and all of the neighbors of Rome and Jerusalem would have known Rome. They did not recognize Herod as king, but they only recognized the authority of the newborn. They knew he was just born because it indicates "where is he who is born king of the Jews". They were looking for a baby.

If they were from Arabia, they would have known Herod was king because the Romans traded all over the known world at that time. Rome traded in Arabia, Shinar, Persia and every other nation within sailing distance. These wise men traded three things well known in Israel and brought those things with them. Frankincense was made in Yemen, which is best known for sea trading in the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean. The wise men came from a place that did not recognize Rome or Herod and yet knew the Jews.

They came from one direction and went home another way, because of the threat of Herod. I do not think they were from a land close to Israel because the world at the time knew about Israel and Rome. China and Russia or even India are very good sources.

I found this link about Oman, a country in the Arabian peninsula that is the start of The Frankincense Trail

When the researchers from Hypha University took the mortar samples out of the distilling chamber they found resins and residue of Frankincense, Myrrh, and of Balsam. It is believed to be very possible that the oils taken to the Christ Child at Bethlehem were from this distillery.

It may have been bought in Oman, and that would certainly give credence to them coming from the East, but where they were from themselves, we may never know that. Wherever they were from, they did not recognize Roman authority or Herod. They certainly knew who the Jews were though.

There were records of Jews living in China in the Han dynasty. It would not be unreasonable for them to look for the one who was their king.

The Han Dynasty (simplified Chinese: 汉朝; traditional Chinese: 漢朝; pinyin: Hàn Cháo; Wade–Giles: Han Ch'ao; IPA: [xân tʂʰɑ̌ʊ̯]) (206 BCE – 220 CE) was the second imperial dynasty of China, preceded by the Qin Dynasty (221–207 BCE) and succeeded by the Three Kingdoms (220–280 CE). It was founded by the rebel leader Liu Bang, known posthumously as Emperor Gaozu of Han. It was briefly interrupted by the Xin Dynasty (9–23 CE) of the former regent Wang Mang. This interregnum separates the Han into two periods: the Western Han (206 BCE – 9 CE) and Eastern Han (25–220 CE). Spanning over four centuries, the period of the Han Dynasty is considered a golden age in Chinese history.[3] To this day, China's majority ethnic group refers to itself as the "Han people" and Chinese characters are referred to as "Han characters".[4]

There were Jews in China in that time frame.

It is an eighth-century copy of a story first written down nearly half a millennium earlier, less than 100 years after the Gospel of Matthew, the original source of the Bible story.

8th century copy...ok 800 AD *so that is the date of the document

and it is a copy of a document written 500 years earlier...(but no reference to what or where that original document is) but we do know that unnamed document from which the aforementioned document was copied frm was written AFTER

Matthew which was written about 70 ADish

ok, so where's the news? The story sheds new light on the Magi story...which is proof of ? People are trying to act like this document is OLDER than Matthew...or contemporary with the events...not true...all this document is proof of is that someone extrapolated on Matthew's sketchy account...of something the writer of Matthew probably heard about...and wrote a novella about

I've read recently that there are people who take harry potter seriously they have created a religon around the book series.

My question to you is what makes the bible anymore real then the Rowling series? I mean how can you be so sure as to think your faith in this book is more then unconscious blind faith?

Honest question

Originally posted by ImmortalThought
I've read recently that there are people who take harry potter seriously they have created a religon around the book series.

My question to you is what makes the bible anymore real then the Rowling series? I mean how can you be so sure as to think your faith in this book is more then unconscious blind faith?

Honest question

Think about this though, was Christianity part of the pop culture in the Roman Empire? In a land full of magick, paganism, polytheism and worship of the emperor, Christianity was so different that it changed the Roman Empire completely and the rest of the world. I don't see any other religion having that impact. People may say, "what about Islam?" but Islam came 600 years after Christianity and the world was changed by that time.

The thought becomes this, does Harry Potter have any kind of power such as that? It is simply pop culture, the same as life was in the Roman Empire. We have faith in more than the Book, we have faith in the authorship of the Book. Rowlings will be forgotten in a few years, her book series will be forgotten when the next big thing comes along.

And there is a Church of Elvis, so people will make a religion from anything. The biggest difference is this, would people be willing to die for Harry Potter?

yeah, a lot of the christmas music makes people think things that just aren't in the bible. There were probably several magi ( who weren't kings like in the song we three kings) . I think they get "3" from the three gifts, gold frankincense and myrrh. Jesus' birth was probably in the fall or spring. Back then they kept animals in a stable that was actually a cave. Not the nativity scene you see today. Jesus was probably almost 2 years old by the time the magi got there, Apparently they had to travel thousands of miles. They always show mary on a donkey but historians think she was probably riding in a small wagon pulled by a donkey.
when they say"there was no room in the Inn" it didn't mean hotel type place. Back then an " Inn" was the the second floor of a home.
The bible never says any of the myths that we hear or see at christmas its just myths and things people made up for a good sounding song

reply to post by FlyersFan


Lol right. I'm sure they used the name Jesus and not his hebrew name Yahshua or its aramaic variant Yeshua. There was no letter J in 700 A.D. that letter was created roughly 500 years ago.

Documents written from that time period calling him Jesus smells like a modern document written to look like it came from 700 A.D.

Originally posted by bestintentions
I feel a bit nervous answering in the religious section

I originally had this up in the religious conspiracy section. I put it there because - being the vatican - I don't know if this is a true document or not. Considering all the stuff they have stored away ... it very well could be. Considering all the coverups they've been involved in .. it very well could be a fake story.

But if it's true .. this is VERY cool and I'd love to read a full translation.
I hope it's available soon.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
I'm sure they used the name Jesus and not his hebrew name Yahshua or its aramaic variant Yeshua. There was no letter J in 700 A.D. that letter was created roughly 500 years ago.

Could you provide a link to that information? Would you please show us that the document says 'Jesus' and not Yahshua? Would you please give a link because so far no one outside the Vatican has seen the document or the translation and I don' t know how you could know something that - so far - the rest of the world doesn't.

The modern translation will most likely say "jesus' - if his name is even in the document at all.

Originally posted by ImmortalThought
I've read recently that there are people who take harry potter seriously they have created a religon around the book series.

My question to you is what makes the bible anymore real then the Rowling series? I mean how can you be so sure as to think your faith in this book is more then unconscious blind faith?

Honest question

We don't have faith in the book. We have faith in Jesus the Christ and were not the only YHWH based faith in the world. What you should be asking yourselves is why do we believe in God? What did the men who wrote these books see and experience to make them believe? The hebrew didn't record this book for fun, they recorded it for posterity and because he gave them laws to obey and set them apart from other men by those laws and beliefs. People in those ancient times didn't write fiction stories like what Stephen King and Terry Goodkind shell out, they wrote about what they saw with their own eyes, what they heard and what they were told because these events were important to them.

There is nothing "unconcious" about having faith, it is a very concious act. You need to stop being prejudiced and biased to something you know nothing about other than your own opinions. Youre asking the wrong questions. The question you should be asking yourself are the whys of it and why do we believe what we do but this takes an open mind i am sensing you do not have.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Most likely the Magi were in fact members of the caste of Megistines from Parthia. One of their duties was keeping track of all possible heirs to the Parthian throne, and since the ruling dynasty of Parthia, the Arsacids, was Davidic, Jesus was a legitimate heir to the throne of Parthia. Now you may guess where He spent his "lost" years...

I don't need to ask where, he was the son of a carpenter. He spent his "lost years" apprenticed to Joseph and learning the family trade as in those times sons learned the trades of their fathers and it was a family business. Jesus was no peasant, builders never were. There were several profitable trades in those times. Chiefly stonemasonry, carpentry, fishing (particularly in the Galilee regions), blacksmithing, potters etc. Granted these trades are considered poor by our standards, they weren't starving to death. Olive trees was a major staple of the economy as well.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Most likely the Magi were in fact members of the caste of Megistines from Parthia. One of their duties was keeping track of all possible heirs to the Parthian throne, and since the ruling dynasty of Parthia, the Arsacids, was Davidic, Jesus was a legitimate heir to the throne of Parthia. Now you may guess where He spent his "lost" years...

I don't need to ask where, he was the son of a carpenter. He spent his "lost years" apprenticed to Joseph and learning the family trade as in those times sons learned the trades of their fathers and it was a family business. Jesus was no peasant, builders never were. There were several profitable trades in those times. Chiefly stonemasonry, carpentry, fishing (particularly in the Galilee regions), blacksmithing, potters etc. Granted these trades are considered poor by our standards, they weren't starving to death. Olive trees was a major staple of the economy as well.

Yes, and the priests were making a lot of money and people bought those sacrifices. Matthew Levi and Zaccheus were both Jewish tax collectors for the Romans, so there was money in Israel at the time. We think of them as poor because the lavish way in which the Roman government officials lived. Many Roman soldiers were poor as well and people forget that the Roman Empire was so vast and soldiers came from all over their known world.

There may have indeed been poor people and people in poverty but I don't see the whole nation being very poor. The Romans taxed them, so there must have been money.

Originally posted by ImmortalThought
I've read recently that there are people who take harry potter seriously they have created a religon around the book series.

My question to you is what makes the bible anymore real then the Rowling series? I mean how can you be so sure as to think your faith in this book is more then unconscious blind faith?

Honest question

Honest answer:

You can locate the places/cities/nations/mountains/rivers mentioned in the Bible on the map.

You can tie in the Bible with secular history and the writings of other peoples of the same era - I admit that there is quite a bit of chronological confusion, but it can be resolved.

You can see the exact outcome of Biblical prophecy in history and current events.

The Bible has made for better people for many centures.

People have been willing to die for what they know from the Bible, and joyfully at that.

None of that can be said of the Harry Potter books.