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The "Two Witnesses"...Can They be Identified?

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posted on May, 1 2012 @ 09:26 PM
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Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

What do the candlesticks represent?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Now we know that Candlesticks = Churches.

If the Two Witnesses are only two churches, which churches are they?

Rom 11:17 And if some of the [Jewish] branches be broken off, and thou [the Gentile church], being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

Rom 11:24 For if thou [the Gentiles] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree [the Jews]: how much more shall these [the Jews], which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

This is talking about the Jewish and Christian churches which are the two witnesses! So, lets confirm this with scripture.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

1948AD - 1260 = 688 AD in which the Dome of the Rock was built on the temple mount!

And this fits history perfectly! As of 1948, the Jews are no longer witnessing in the nations. The Abomination that maketh Desolate was set up in 688, and the Jews were driven into the “wilderness” of the nations at that time.2 Now, 1260 years later, there is a new autonomous nation of Israel, and the Jews are back in the Holy Land again. So the Jewish people are one of the Two Witnesses of the Christian Era.

We can see 688 to 1948 as the time of Jewish witness, but what about the second witness, the Church? How can the church’s time of witness be over since we are still here? Well, look at what has happened to the Church since 1948. Most Christian homes have a Bible, but few Christians still read them or continue to witness to the lost. The immorality, involvement in the occult and satanism in the western nations has mushroomed since 1948, and the church has done little to slow the decay. As a result of our apathy and questionable lifestyles that followed, much of the Gentile church has fallen into apostasy.

Most churches in this country are terminally ill, many have already fallen away, and Europe is far worse. Many are beyond reach, “the sin unto spiritual death” (1 Jo 5:16). Since our battle is really spiritual, one is inclined to wonder if the coming destruction of the visible Church may not be more spiritual than physical. If it is, we are frighteningly close to that hour:

Rev 11:7 And when they [the Two Witnesses] shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

This is from the a book called the "False Prophet" written by Ellis Skolfield. It is completely free. I highly recommend this book to anyone who truly wants to be able to read the word of God without bias and use scripture to interpret scripture. God Bless!

You can find the book here: www.ellisskolfield.com...




posted on May, 1 2012 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by NoSoup4U
 

What do the candlesticks represent?

The Holy Spirit, is what they represent, with the emphasis on the word, represent, meaning they are not literal lamps. Also, you are saying "candlestick" which only the King James Version uses, where all the other versions say Lamp-stands. These are oil lamps, where tubes carry the oil from the two trees, to the lamps. So your connection to the candle sticks which represent churches does not work.
You have to read Revelation as a war document and what it is talking about is the temple when it was destroyed by Titus with the Roman legions in 70 AD. What the 1,260 days are is the time from when Jerusalem fell, and the time of the fall of Masada. During the siege of Jerusalem, the rebels did not allow the burial of the people that were killed trying to leave the city.

edit on 1-5-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2012 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
................Also, you are saying "candlestick" which only the King James Version uses, where all the other versions say Lamp-stands. These are oil lamps, where tubes carry the oil from the two trees, to the lamps. So your connection to the candle sticks which represent churches does not work.............


Ummm.... I am not sure where you got the information in your quote above. The closest translated "English" version of the Bible is the 1611 King James Bible. Here is the direct language from that bible and a good portion of other translations/versions:

These are the two oliue trees, and the two candlestickes, standing before the God of the earth.
Revelation 11:4 (1611 King James Bible)

Other Translations of Revelation 11:4

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
- King James Version (1769 Oxford 'Authorized Version')

These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth.
- American Standard Version (1901)

These are the two olive-trees and the two lights, which are before the Lord of the earth.
- Basic English Bible

These are the two olive-trees and the two lights, which are before the Lord of the earth.
- Darby Bible

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks, that stand before the Lord of the earth.
- Douay Rheims Bible

Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks.
- People's Bible

These are the two olive-trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
- Webster's Bible

These witnesses are the two olive-trees, and they are the two lamps which stand in the presence of the Lord of the earth.
- Weymouth Bible

These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands, standing before the Lord of the earth.
- World English Bible

These ben tweyne olyues, and twei candilstikis, and thei stonden in the siyt of the Lord of the erthe.
- Wycliffe Bible

these are the two olive [trees], and the two lamp-stands that before the God of the earth do stand;
- Youngs Literal Bible



posted on May, 2 2012 @ 12:39 PM
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Please, notice the following verses from Revelation 1:20 ALL say that it represents churches. This rightly tells us what Revelation 11:4 is talking about. There are no if's, and's or but's about it. The Scripture is very clear. These are not my words. It is Gods' word. It is not my interpretation, but God's interpretation using Scripture. It is what it is.

The mysterie of the seuen starres which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seuen golden Candlestickes. The seuen Starres are the Angels of the seuen Churches: and the seuen Candlestickes which thou sawest, are the seuen Churches.
- 1611 King James Bible

Other Translations of Revelation 1:20

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
- King James Version (1769 Oxford 'Authorized Version')

the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.
- American Standard Version (1901)

The secret of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and of the seven gold vessels with burning lights. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven lights are the seven churches.
- Basic English Bible

The secret of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and of the seven gold vessels with burning lights. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven lights are the seven churches.
- Darby Bible

The mystery of the seven stars, which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches. And the seven candlesticks are the seven churches.
- Douay Rheims Bible

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
- Webster's Bible

the secret meaning of the seven stars which you have seen in My right hand, and of the seven lampstands of gold. The seven stars are the ministers of the seven Churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven Churches.
- Weymouth Bible

the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands. The seven stars are the angels of the seven assemblies. The seven lampstands are seven assemblies.
- World English Bible

The sacrament of the seuene sterris, which thou seiyest in my riyt hond, and the seuene goldun candelstikis; the seuene sterris ben aungels of the seuene chirchis, and the seuene candelstikis ben seuene chirchis.
- Wycliffe Bible

the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.
- Youngs Literal Bible



posted on May, 2 2012 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by NoSoup4U
 

I doubt that too many people care what the 1611 KJV says.
The two lamp-stands are basically the holy spirits, if you take the obvious reference from Ezekiel to explain it.
So if you want to understand it from the point of view of the author of Revelation, it would be maybe a couple of people who resisted the Beast, who is obviously Rome and their legions under Titus. One would be the leader who was killed in Jerusalem and the other would be the leader who died at Masada.



posted on May, 2 2012 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Are you familiar with biblical hermeneutics? That is the study of the principles of interpretation concerning the books of the Bible. Without going into great detail, this is the method in which one should try to use holy scripture to interpret holy scripture.

Basically, you look at the verse you are reading to try and find the answer. If it is not found there then you read the chapter. If not there then read the book. If not there then the testament. If not there then the whole bible.

In the case that we are discussing, we do not need to go to the Old Testament to get our answer because the answer is provided in the same book of the verse we are working with.

I do agree with you in the sense that the verse is specifically talking about the Holy Spirit that is in the two churches; Jewish and Christian. Maybe the problem we are having here is the definition of what we know as a church. During Jesus's earthly life, the church did not represent a physical building. It represented all the saved and is still applicable today. It is literally the whole body of Christ. Do you agree with this?

By the way, thank you for the nice discussion without being mean. Some people on here loose their minds when their is not a general agreement on things. I feel it is important for everyone to know that they do not know everything about the holy word of God; me included!



posted on May, 2 2012 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by NoSoup4U
 

Some people on here loose their minds when their is not a general agreement on things.

I'm not defending a particular religion's doctrinal view.
What I try to do is represent the non-cult view, and I do that by going with the mainstream, academic, biblical scholarship, latest research view, if that makes any sense. I'm likely to adopt whatever seems to me to be the most persuasive argument that I know about at the time.
I accept the view that Revelation was a basic messianic writing that was adopted by a faction of Christianity which believed in the view that was in opposition to the version of Christianity taught by Paul.
They tacked onto the ends of the book parts that identified their particular sect.



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