The "Two Witnesses"...Can They be Identified?

Originally posted by Minori
reply to post by Logarock

 

There is always the Mosaic Law, half of the Christians honor it while the others...look away. So I guess it would depend on the belief of the individual themselves. There are many contradictions within the bible regarding laws including this one in particular. Wether or not the "two witnesses" are male or female is of no importance, the magnitude of their purpose is.

And just so you are aware alot of the "mysticism" surrounding the number 2 dates back farther then the bible itself. It is when you put it all together that you see the big picture.

PLPL

Yea the number two does go back. But here we are in a biblical context and a witness context. Jesus sent His disciples out two by two. Two is the number of adequate witness.

As far as the law, the important thing here is that these men will be coming in that spirit and not the spirit of grace if you will. When the apostle John wanted to call fire down and destroy some cities Jesus said "you know not what spirit you are of". But the witnesses will come in that spirit. John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah as the last Old Testament prophet but he was not Elijah the man. Jesus goes on to give a clear word that one of the witnesses will be Elijah when he likens the John the Baptist killing to His current time on earth with how the real Elijah will be killed before the time of His second comming. So Elijah the man of the Old Testament will come and make ready the way for the second comming of Christ.

Note that Elijah and Moses show up at the transfiguration.


Power of the Witnesses.
"These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire".

Elijah-the power to stop rain.
Moses-the power to turn water into blood and cause plagues.

Originally posted by Alethea
There seems to be so many conflicting opinions on the prophecy of the "two witnesses". Some people think that this is still to be a future event. Some people say that the two witnesses are the old testament and the new testament. No one ever speaks about this particular passage (quoted below), and I wonder why. Could it be that it is an inconvenient truth?

Revelation 11 speaks about the two witnesses:

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Make merry? Send gifts to one another? Hmm....what festivity does that sound like?

Could it be that the Mas in Christmas really implies massacre? Could it be that people are actually celebrating the slaughter of an innocent man because he told inconvenient truths and made the politicians and religionists of his day insecure in their deceits?

My first post, so be gentle
As I was reading this post, a thought sprang to my mind. Maybe the two prophets mentioned were the prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and Jesus Christ, and tormenting 'them that dwelt on the earth' could possibly refer to past/present/future wars between the 'Muslim east' and the 'Christian west'. Also the sending of gifts to one another could be interpreted as weapons and oil (among other things).
That is my humble opinion.
Peace.

pretty sure I saw a commercial on tv proclaiming that thes 2 sack clothed prophets were here and hanging out with some important section of some church... Its gotta be true i saw it on tv... ill look for that commercial in a few and post it up.

reply to post by brokedown


I think the bible (specifically the old testament) may be the key to the identities of the 2 witnesses.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Hebrews 9:27 And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment

Ecclesiastes 3:2 a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,

Neither Enoch nor Eliyah died, God took them both and spared them tasting death. It is appointed once for all men to die yet they did not die yet. I believe it is possible it could be them. They may still have a major role to play in near future events, as both were prophets both have been given authority by God to cause plagues and stop up the rain and cause droughts and famines and punish mankind so that some will seek repentence.

I am not saying this is how it will be, just that it is a possibility.

Both men were born, but neither have died, neither planted and neither uprooted. This part of ecclesiastes does not refer to farming, it refers to your death and being planted in the ground and uprooting comes as your spirit is set free from your body.

Originally posted by SpiritOf78

Originally posted by Alethea
There seems to be so many conflicting opinions on the prophecy of the "two witnesses". Some people think that this is still to be a future event. Some people say that the two witnesses are the old testament and the new testament. No one ever speaks about this particular passage (quoted below), and I wonder why. Could it be that it is an inconvenient truth?

Revelation 11 speaks about the two witnesses:

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Make merry? Send gifts to one another? Hmm....what festivity does that sound like?

Could it be that the Mas in Christmas really implies massacre? Could it be that people are actually celebrating the slaughter of an innocent man because he told inconvenient truths and made the politicians and religionists of his day insecure in their deceits?

My first post, so be gentle

As I was reading this post, a thought sprang to my mind. Maybe the two prophets mentioned were the prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and Jesus Christ, and tormenting 'them that dwelt on the earth' could possibly refer to past/present/future wars between the 'Muslim east' and the 'Christian west'. Also the sending of gifts to one another could be interpreted as weapons and oil (among other things).
That is my humble opinion.
Peace.

See my post. Only 2 men in history who havent tasted death yet are Enoch and Eliyah (Elijah), could be they still got it to do. Theyre the only 2 that fit, unless you subscribe to the Jehova's Witness theory that the 2 witnesses are the old and new testaments (could also be possible).

reply to post by Maigret


What you have said sounds pretty childish to me, especially the whole temple scene..No really who cares about a bunch of dudes playing stupid games in a temple.

I am sorry to inform you bro, but if anybody comes around saying they are Jesus Christ and some such and tells me to do stuff. I don't care even if it is Jesus come down from the clouds and all that. I will tell them to stuff it, "only using nicer words" and if they don't get that then i will use harsher words...And if they don't get that...Well the third times the charm.

I am not trying to be mean, but no really not only do you misinterpret what the bible says, but you act as if I should believe your misguided stories. Which is totally illogical.

And you should care, because your eternal future depends on it and on where you will spend that time!

Listen bro, I will get a little ticked when people say such things.

And even if there is such a thing as going to hell for choices and reasons of our own makings or not of our own makings. It is way more complex and intertwined then the little stories you tell or have read and heard of. In fact to me they seem down right silly.

So I think you should take Jesus advice and be careful on who you go around telling they will go to hell for whatever reason. And especially when saying such things to some people they might take it the wrong way. It is a bit rude to be going around telling people they will be going to hell for whatever reason, and I for one would probably take it the wrong way.

Thanks for the warning anyways. But I think I will take it up with god, I have more then a few complaints on a lot of things....So I for one plan on seeing what is up, in this life or the next.

reply to post by Logarock

They are called witnesses because they have seen everything and they will come back and testify about it.

So what is this a court hearing now? Are things that people testify admissible as evidence now? Or do we follow the clues to the evidence...Or do we follow the evidence to whatever it leads to.

Take offence but you make very little sense. Define "seeing everything"

They will back their words up with powerfull demonstrations akin to those that people witnesses in the days Moses and Elijah. So much so in fact that people will say "are not these men Elijah and Moses"?

You sure people wont be saying OMG..OMG...I know who you are....Your that David Blaine dude and that other magic guy aren't you? Can you do the trick were you levitate or pull a rabbit out of a hat?

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


I think I follow what your saying with the three thing, kinda like the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost?
Ok, seriously I can tell by your posts that you do not put much stock into the God thing. I am not knocking you for that nor will I try to scare you into believing. When the witnesses speak, whatever form they are in, flesh, spirit, government etc., there will be no denying the truth. It was orchestrated this way, satan has done a good job of perverting everything that God stands for. In the end it will come down to making a choice, again this choice will be entirely up to you, as well as its consequences.

I truly believe that the these two witnesses will be in the flesh, just as I believe that satan himself is here in the flesh and has been for a long time. If only I could find him........I have a few words for him...

PLPL

I just recently read that the Witnesses are the remaining Church and Israel. The Chuch being any who still believe that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. The Lampstands do represent Churches in Revelations and also there is a mentioned of the Olive branch. So that does have some credibility. I used to always take it as a literal that there would be two Men but the wording used is two Witnesses so this could mean two Groups of people who remain in the tribulation being Israel the Chosen people of God and and the grafted on Church that are all us non jews who believe that Jesus is our Saviour. I'm still new to this so I only recently read it but it made some sense.

credit goes to amightywind ministries...

the two witnesses are a man and a woman

www.amightywind.com...

I have read each of your post with interest.

It is my belief that our interest, discussion, and pondering becomes Joy in Heaven.

Anytime we gather to argue, debate, speculate, and reason together over the teachings of The Faith, we together breathe life into The Faith.

There are two very import Spiritual lessons to be learned here.

First is;

that is Right, True, and Appropriate that we Discuss, Argue, and Ponder over the Teachings of The Faith. This action solidifies that we are taking the teachings to heart, internalizing and incorporating them into our lives.
Second and most important is;

That we recognize that there are many different interpretations, that no one interpretation is Correct or Incorrect.

That we should NEVER blindly follow another Human’s interpretation of a Spiritual Teaching. That NO Human has the Whole, Correct Answer.
There is an additional Spiritual Teaching revealed as well.

That each of us see’s the importance of allowing the Bible to speak for itself, that we don’t add to or take from the actual text, that we have the courage to recognize that when the Bible is silent, it is silent.

We, as Humans have a need to fill in the gaps, we desire the complete story. That some of our fellow Humans actually use there own imagination to “Fill in the Blanks”, when they appear in the text.

Not recognizing that the “Blanks” are as important as the written text, sometimes more so.

delete post sorry mods

reply to post by Alethea

Revelation 11 speaks about the two witnesses:
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

What you have to do is put yourself in the place of someone in Rome who was around when Peter and Paul were both executed, after spending a certain amount of time preaching a coming bad time, and also performing miracles.
The writer of Revelation would be taking this seriously and considering this as the harbinger of that predicted time.

reply to post by Logarock


Logarock is right, it is Elijah and Moses. No doubt about it. Or should I say the Bible is right....? But Elijah and Moses fit the bill perfectly. They both the did the same miracles that the two witnesses do. Study the life of both these guys and their acts, and you will see they are the same as the two witnesses in Revelation.

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by Logarock

 

Logarock is right, it is Elijah and Moses. No doubt about it. Or should I say the Bible is right....? But Elijah and Moses fit the bill perfectly. They both the did the same miracles that the two witnesses do. Study the life of both these guys and their acts, and you will see they are the same as the two witnesses in Revelation.

One of the attributes mentioned concerning these witnesses is that they have the power to shut up the rains from heaven. It was Elisha that stopped the rains for...what was it....3 years? (Not Elijah)

My personal opinion is that the two witnesses were Jesus and John the Baptist.

And I don't see how anyone can figure that the old and new testaments are the witnesses when I don't know of any occasions where people "make merry" and "give each other gifts" because the Bible was published.

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5And if any man will hurt them,FIRE PROCITETH OUT OF THEIR MOUTH, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6These have power to SHUT HEAVEN,THAT IT RAIN NOT, in the days of their prophecy: and have POWER OVER WATERS TO TURN THEM TO BLOOD, and to SMITE THE EARTH WITH ALL PLAGES, as often as they will.
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.






for many reasons, us in the body of Christ whom are familiar with eschatology believe it will be
Moses(turned water into blood ,smited the earth with plagues....Elijah(shut the heavens so it would not rain, called down fire from heaven)
Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration- Mathew 17

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by Logarock

 

Logarock is right, it is Elijah and Moses. No doubt about it. Or should I say the Bible is right....? But Elijah and Moses fit the bill perfectly. They both the did the same miracles that the two witnesses do. Study the life of both these guys and their acts, and you will see they are the same as the two witnesses in Revelation.

You are aware that all of the prophets had that power from the Holy Spirit right? This is not something they could do on their own.

Not to mention, Moses has already died. The only 2 who have not yet died the first death are Enoch and Elijah which means they still have purpose in this world and Enoch was a prophet as well. The prophets did what the Holy Spirit commanded, nothing they did was of their own will.

Go to Wikipedia, type in: Nero, in the search box.
Here you find that Nero was emperor into the year 68, the same year it is most widely believed that Paul was killed, notice the word, killed, not died from old age or something. This makes Nero responsible for basically murdering the Apostle Paul. Peter was probably killed earlier and seeing how Paul died at the end of the reign of Nero, it is likely Peter was also killed under Nero.
You also have this problem which still lingers to this day of there being no remains to be found (or crypt) from these two Apostles, so having them raised up and taken into Heaven fixes that problem.
You can also read in the article in Wikipedia,

During his reign, the redoubtable general Corbulo conducted a successful war and negotiated peace with the Parthian Empire.

so here is a peace treaty being make between the two empires, on either side, so to speak of the region of Palestine. Then in the next sentence, you read,

. . . beginning the First Roman–Jewish War.

which ended with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
Nero was murdered at some point before Jerusalem was actually taken, after a prolonged siege.
Reading on, you find that instrumental in the taking of Jerusalem (after clicking on the link in the part I just quoted) was a legion called up from Alexandria, by the name of, Apollinaris, which sounds familiar to anyone reading Revelation, of this unexplained thing that comes from the abyss to make an end of things.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

You also have this problem which still lingers to this day of there being no remains to be found (or crypt) from these two Apostles, so having them raised up and taken into Heaven fixes that problem.

Interesting observation. I also think it is quite possible all or many of the "saints" were either raised up at death or possibly also went in "a whirlwind" (ufo). Just because we only hear about Enoch and Elijah being taken up by craft does not mean that it hasn't happened to others as well.

Chuck Missler has a very good argument that suggest that the 2 witnesses are Elija and Moses ..quite convincing .... www.youtube.com... www.youtube.com...