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Why Does the Left Try so hard to Justify Terrorists in the Middle East?

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posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by steveknows
 


The proof is out there for you to find. If you actually thinks a man in a cave in Afghani mountains took those buildings (including one that wasn't even hit) down at near free-fall velocity, than obviously there is more research to be done on your part. Google is your friend. No offense intended of course.




posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:46 PM
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reply to post by jjf3rd77
 


All this sounds a lot like your own personal need to separate yourself from radicals of another land, whom, guess what, are no better than you.

May I suggest you read your Bible. You will find the reasons why terrorism happens over there, and over here. I'm beginning to believe that Libertarian and democratic Christians seem like the rare breed that actually know what the hell they're talking about.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Hawking

Originally posted by steveknows
You refine heroin for a living, but you have a moral objection to liquor. You might be a Muslim.
You own a $3,000 machine gun and $5,000 rocket launcher, but you can't afford shoes. You might be a Muslim,
You wipe your butt with your bare hand, but consider bacon unclean. You might be a Muslim,
You think vests come in two styles: bullet-proof and suicide. You might be a Muslim,
You consider television dangerous, but routinely carry explosives in your clothing. You might be a Muslim,
You were amazed to discover that cell phones have uses other than setting off roadside bombs.
You might be a Muslim,
You have nothing against women and think every man should own at least four. You might be a Muslim,
You can't think of anyone you haven't declared Jihad against. You might be a Muslim..


You are a very ignorant and sad person

Please do us all a favor and don't reproduce, thanks
edit on 23-12-2011 by Hawking because: (no reason given)


It's actually a joke and meant as such,. I'm sad that you don't have the mental ability to pick up on that and perhaps it's you who shouldn't reproduce based on your lack of the most basic human aspects being humour. Or are you just boring?



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 06:13 PM
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the real terrorist, should be clear to the left, right and middle, not the ones the terrorist or calling terrorist...as in who is the evil ones, not the ones the evil ones trained and provoked to be enemies, or attacked for their beliefs, oil, $$$, property, etc., the invaders and liberators conquests, once examined, show, the justifications behind being able to label the enemy the terrorist smear, as by definition, if your not down with the evil empire, your a terrorist now days, it seems, as the spin and twist op plays!



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 06:15 PM
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reply to post by steveknows
 




And again another post full of nothing but baseless accusations and insults directed at me.why is it, I wonder, that you can't seem to keep from making this personal?

1)well played ignoring the entirety of my first comment. Typical.

2)I was unaware that there were laws against defending ones home by any means possible. I ask again: if your home nation were being invaded, would you put on a uniform so that you could be more easily identified? And ill take it a step further- would you give a CRAP about the 'rules' that the invading force set in place for the fight? Rules of engagement are only for the aggressor. And they are only for propaganda.

3)are we not in their countries, killing them en mass right now?

4)so if my argument is anti-west, does that make yours anti-muslim? I have not once said I am against america. Your baseless accusations are getting old and tired.

5)I am not going to derail the thread into a 'did OBL do it' thread, so I will leave that one as one neither of us will agree on. I have seen all the western sources on the subject. I have also seen many other, non american sources. I guess you and I see propaganda in different places.

6)the 'video' is not authentic.

7)I know enough to know that your definition of 'terrorism' is blatantly false, and I know enough to know that yes, it is a subjective term (if you know what that means).

8)more textbook accusations and insults. 'You support the enemy' 'youre a terrorist' 'why don't you go fight for them'....its like talking to a middle schooler. Just because someone doesn't agree with your twisted view does not make them a terrorist-although that line of thinking is expected from someone who advocates killing.

9)you didn't say they shouldn't be subject to the same law, you said you didn't see the west doing it at all. I suggest you do a little research on clandestine activity and black ops in the middle east. The west has most CERTAINLY done the things you speak of.

For someone who is so quick to insult and accuse others, you sure don't seem to have much of a grasp on the real world.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Way to ignore my other post and attack someone else under me. You keep saying that our view is twisted and we are just as bad as the terrorists yet you fail to even notice the fact that the terrorists do everything in their lives based on twisted religious mythology. Please keep on providing evidence that we are the ones with the twisted views here. I am waiting for responses from both of my last two posts.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by jjf3rd77
 


As I said earlier, I am done with you. I did not respond to your last posts because they have said nothing but the exact same things you have parroted all along. You refuse to address any points or questions that I pose, and you have shown yourself to be uneducated, racist and naive.

The truth is, I'm finding it very hard not to be very harsh with you. Your sentence structure, wording, and argument style make it very obvious that you are simply too young to understand the world as it is.

Furthermore, I have neither the time, nor the inclination to discuss a topic with people who cannot debate the topic, but would rather devolve the conversation into accusations and insults.

If you have anything to actually discuss, feel free to post it. But I'm not gonna play your games



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots
reply to post by steveknows
 




And again another post full of nothing but baseless accusations and insults directed at me.why is it, I wonder, that you can't seem to keep from making this personal?

1)well played ignoring the entirety of my first comment. Typical.

2)I was unaware that there were laws against defending ones home by any means possible. I ask again: if your home nation were being invaded, would you put on a uniform so that you could be more easily identified? And ill take it a step further- would you give a CRAP about the 'rules' that the invading force set in place for the fight? Rules of engagement are only for the aggressor. And they are only for propaganda.

3)are we not in their countries, killing them en mass right now?

4)so if my argument is anti-west, does that make yours anti-muslim? I have not once said I am against america. Your baseless accusations are getting old and tired.

5)I am not going to derail the thread into a 'did OBL do it' thread, so I will leave that one as one neither of us will agree on. I have seen all the western sources on the subject. I have also seen many other, non american sources. I guess you and I see propaganda in different places.

6)the 'video' is not authentic.

7)I know enough to know that your definition of 'terrorism' is blatantly false, and I know enough to know that yes, it is a subjective term (if you know what that means).

8)more textbook accusations and insults. 'You support the enemy' 'youre a terrorist' 'why don't you go fight for them'....its like talking to a middle schooler. Just because someone doesn't agree with your twisted view does not make them a terrorist-although that line of thinking is expected from someone who advocates killing.

9)you didn't say they shouldn't be subject to the same law, you said you didn't see the west doing it at all. I suggest you do a little research on clandestine activity and black ops in the middle east. The west has most CERTAINLY done the things you speak of.

For someone who is so quick to insult and accuse others, you sure don't seem to have much of a grasp on the real world.


The reason I say you're lame is because you are. And the video was not shown to be false at all and I saw it with my own eyes and Bin Laden laughing. Another lie you tell. And you are actually supposed to have the ability to understand a satement with out it being spelled out to you. All you've tried to do is confuse the issues.

You say I have twisted views. You compare a soldier in combat wearing his or her nations uniform and abiding by the rules of war to that of a terrorist and you say that I have twisted views? You have given nothing solid this whole time. You have used desperate examples to justify what is obviously your leaning toward terrorist acts. You fail to understand the most basic underlying difference.

For God sake you even accused me of being racist. "white people" remember?

If the U.S was out to erradicate all muslims as you so childishly stated. If the U.S and the coalition are at war with islam then why aren't all muslims placed in internment camps for the duration of the conflict? Why are muslims allowed to immigrate to our countries? You have no idea. What you say doesn't even start to make sense.

Be gone with you. You'e not worthy of my time or to even have the effort of our troops discussed with you.

[
edit on 23-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 07:42 PM
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I've tried to read pretty much every comment on this thread, and both sides of the argument presents good points.
I don't claim to know everything, far from it, but as Christian raised and living in the Middle East, I think I can be of some help.

I can't claim to speak for the entire Middle East, even though most of the West think we're all Arabs, so we're all the same, we are similar but different at the same time.

In school, I was never taught to hate or attack the USA or Jews. Same with Muslims.
And even though Christians like me constitute 5-6% of the population in Jordan, we were never attacked or looked down upon. I do not condone 9/11, whether it was an inside job by the US, by Muslim radicals, Zionists, or whatever you might suggest. I do not condone killing in the name of anyone or anything.

Simply, as we grew up, were taught the history of our region. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is way bigger than any of you can imagine. Many suggest Palestine was never a state, I will not argue against it.
Basically, there was a "region" in the Middle East called Palestine. The population back in 1878 is claimed to be around 462,465.
Arabs, both Christian and Muslims, were the majority at the time, constituting a whopping 96.8% of the population, while the rest of the 3.2% were Jews. And if anyone took the time to do some reading, he/she would realise that the Jews actually flourished in Palestine, while they were persecuted throughout Europe.

[1882-1914]: 65,000 European Jews immigrated into Palestine.
[1915]: McMahon-Hussein Correspondence; in which the British promised the Arabs under Ottoman Rule, that once they freed themselves, the land will be theirs, including Palestine.
[1916]: Sykes-Picot Agreement: Secret agreement between the UK and France, backstabbing the Arabs by agreeing to divide the Arab world after the overthrow of the Ottoman Empire.
[1917]: Balfour Declaration: in which the UK promised the persecuted European Jews a homeland in Palestine.
[1920-1930]: 108,825 additional Jewish immigrants.
[1922]: Population; 757,182. (Arabs: 87.6%, Jews: 11%)

In the 1920's, as land belonging to local residents were stripped away, the first clashes between Palestinians and Jews emerged.

[1931]: Population; 1,035,154 (Arabs: 81.6%, Jews: 16.9%)
[1932-1936]: Hitler's rise to rule -> 174,000 Jewish immigrants.
[1937-1945]: 119,800 Jewish immigrants.
[1947]: As the conflict spiralled out of control, UK handed the problem over to the United Nations.
UN decided on the partition of Palestine into two states, an Arab state and a Jewish state.
Despite the fact that Arabs were more than 2/3 of the population, owned 97% of the land, they were given only 43% of the land.
Zionists used the fact that they had better military power, and started conquering major Arab cities in Palestine.
And according to Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe, there was, and I quote, "an ethnic cleansing operation taking place."
Started off with Deir Yassin, where Zionist terrorists (Irgun) systematically murdered 106 innocent men, women and children. This drove fear into the unarmed Palestinian civilians all over the country, and you have to keep in mind, the Palestinians were humble people, mostly villagers; and thus 300,000 or so fled their country before any Arab soldiers entered Palestine. Out of around 500 Palestinian villages, 400 were destroyed.

And ever since then, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine has been in progress. Surrounding Arab nations tried to claim it back, but could not, against the much superior Israeli army. And so the Jews formed the State of Israel, encompassing 78% of the land.
The innocent Palestinians were made scapegoats of Europe's anti-Semitism. The Arab nations have never forgiven themselves, and I'm not talking about leaders or corrupt politicians, but the people themselves.

Israel since then has been a major destabilizer of the region, and thus the formation of Hamas, Fatah, and numerous other organisations, which in reality all exist to free Palestine of Israeli rule. I do not condone actions by either of those organisations, and definitely not Israel's.

Now that's where you have got anti-Semitism throughout the Arab world. Now let me put it simply, when Iraq was invaded by the United States, the Iraqis did not scream death to all Christians, they burned American flags.
When Palestine was invaded, it wasn't invaded by ANOTHER country, it was invaded by people. And those people happened to be the Jews, there was never Israel at that time, I do not deny that the Jews once lived in Ancient Israel, THEIR original homeland, but that was over 2,000 years ago; and just because people of the same religion once lived there, does not grant the rest the followers of that religion right to that land, especially when it has been inhabited by Arabs for centuries. If you differ, then think along the lines of India invading the US.
Doesn't make much sense eh?

Continued in next post..



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 07:46 PM
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I don't justify terrorism in any form, though I am not totally leftist. I never understood people wearing Che Guevara shirts or that sort of thing, unless it was done to be funny, and even then it's not really funny...ever see the pic of Che after he was killed?
Che Guevara

But I must say that when I hear people talking about taking up arms in case "the Government oppresses them" and takes away their freedom, or taking up arms against the police or military if they "oppress the citizens" or "try to take my guns away" that I don't really see much difference between the two groups, terrorists or freedom fighters. It really is a matter of perspective. I guess I don't believe in the morally justified war scenario, or murder or death penalties, etc. I'm a peace-nik.

Of note, concerning the situation in WW2 with Hitler killing Jews and Gypsies by the millions, I guess I would have been ok with going in there and kicking his ass, his sort of behavior can't be tolerated.

If someone is out to rid the world of "infidels" by killing them all and "letting God sort'em out" then I can't support that. But, I certainly know there are a large number of people from all walks of life who think of the world in such simple terms (i.e. this world would be a much better place if "people like you" weren't here), so the existence of terrorists doesn't surprise me, it's nothing new.

As I think about both sides of the situation, I'm conflicted because I despise oppression, and I despise killing, even if it's "morally justified." It isn't logical to go to war in the name of peace, like some sort of zero sum game.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by ghash
 

Thanks for the history lesson, it's a good reminder. But even your post leaves me sad. As you said, both sides have good points, but that's not the place to be looking, is it? Captaintyinknot and I had a good conversation by focusing on the idea that we are in one H---- of a mess, what do we do going forward to decrease tension and find a way of living together?

I have my own opinion of how we got here, so does everybody else, but even if it's all the other guy's fault, what do we now? That's more important, I would argue, than discovering who is the legion of Satan.

How do we get back to discussing instead of shooting?



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 08:21 PM
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To further elaborate on my previous post, when I said that's where anti-Semitism originates from in the Arab world. I am simply explaining why radical Muslims scream "Death to all the Jews!".
It isn't because we were taught to hate the Jews, it wasn't because Muslims hate Judaism, it is simply because those people hate the state of Israel, and the crimes it has committed. Their hate is actually directed at the Zionists, but the Zionist movement has hijacked the Jewish faith, and misrepresented it for such a long time, and in such a hideous way, that those radical Muslims have developed such hatred towards people of a faith, rather than the Zionists.

I hope I made sense there, I'm pretty sleepy, and I can't properly explain myself, but I know most people here are intelligent enough to get the idea. Now back to the thread, as I have explained the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in rather boring detail, simply to avoid pages of replies of people diverting the thread off it's original topic and claiming Palestine does not exist, etc.

Who is a staunch supporter of Israel? The United States. And hence, the hatred towards the US.
Moving on, the US has invaded, occupied, set up bases in countless number of countries. It has meddled in the internal affairs of countries, has indirectly led to the creation of Al Qaeda and numerous other terrorist organisations. Those very same terrorists, in turn attacked the US, whether 9/11 or numerous other incidents.
Arabs have long yearned for a leader in the mould of, I hope this does not backfire since I've never properly read about him, but let's just say Che Guevara.

A leader which would unite the Arab world, dozens of states speaking the same language, sharing the same religion and pretty much the same history (as most Arab states were never independent sovereign states, but more of a region). Israel has ruined that dream, and at the same time, it has illegally invaded, occupied and looted Palestine. A holy land to Muslims, as so to Jews and Christians.

At the same time, radical Muslims haven't helped the cause. They have committed heinous crimes in the name of God (Allah is actually an Arabic word for God used by both Arab Christians and Muslims, not a separate God).

Basically everyone is in the wrong. Even as an Arab, who has been exposed to the heinous acts of Israel, I still hold sympathy for the Jews. They were wrongly educated that Palestine is a land without a people, for a people without a land, they have been persecuted throughout Europe, the holocaust killed around 6 million Jews, if I remember correctly. I do not support the idea that Jews "deserve" a homeland in Palestine because they were persecuted and oppressed. I simply think, given the current state of affairs (as in the last few decades up till now), the only solution to this problem is a two-state solution, with Jerusalem under UN control.

The Palestinians deserve their land back [UN: Right of return], but forget the different ethnicities and religions, after all we are all humans. And to progress as species, we must stop dividing and conquering each other. We must simply learn how to live with one another. When the US stops it's insane foreign policy, when Israel finally stops genocide in Israel, when the Arabs grow up and stop fighting between one another, and stop the terrorist acts against the West and each other, that's when us, as humans will progress.

Leaders of countries do not correctly represent any of us, none of us has ever been born with the idea to kill or oppress one another. Most of the wars going on in the Middle East actually revolve around the looting of the natural resources (oil) of the oil-rich Arab countries. It has never been against a religion, Muslims were never enemies of the west, they were the new enemy right after the Nazis, Soviets, etc.
Every ere will have a scapegoat, simply to fulfil the wants of the rich, while the rest of us fight it out.

Israel does not represent Jews, Hezbollah/Hamas/Fatah/Al Qaeda does not represent Islam, US/UK does not represent Christians. I hold my sympathy for people of the Jewish faith, who immigrated into Israel to run away from persecution from the Nazis, not the leaders of Israel who raped Palestine, I hold my sympathy for Muslims who are wrongly represented by those terrorist organisations, not the leaders of those organisations.

I realise my post might be incoherent, given that it is 4 AM, but I hope I have presented a good viewpoint.
The conclusion of it all, is that we must stop fighting one another, all of us are in the wrong, but we must simply learn to forgive, forget and progress.
edit on 23/12/11 by ghash because: Grammatical mistake.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 08:29 PM
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And to end this, here's a few important quotes lost in history.

"Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country
their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their
national home. The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of
the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French." - Gandhi [1938]

"Palestine is the cement that holds the Arab world together, or it is the explosive that blows it apart." - Yasser Arafat

"I shall like to help everyone if possible. Jew, Gentile, black man, white. We all want to help one another, human beings are like that. We want to live by each other's happiness, not each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another." - Charlie Chaplin



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 09:22 PM
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Well actually to sum it all up - it's about jihad against the jews as mandated by the Koran and mohammed.

That's it - everything else is just distractions and distortions, to prevent non muslims from understanding this fact!

The left plays along with all of this because it suits their agenda.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 09:22 PM
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reply to post by Hawking
 




You are a very ignorant and sad person

Please do us all a favor and don't reproduce, thanks


The quote your diatribe referred to may have been humorously and SLIGHTLY hyperbolically put . . .

However,

WHICH of those assertions do you feel is/are NOT AT ALL true?

The provocatively put rant you quoted has so much impact BECAUSE there's SO MUCH truth in it.

It seems to me that your main response was

!!!KILL THE MESSENGER!!!

Sheesh.
.
.

edit on 23/12/2011 by BO XIAN because: an addition



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by steveknows
 


And yet another post devoid of anything even remotely resembling on topic discussion. Just more baseless insults, accusations and rhetoric.

Ill say it again, if you are going to call me a terrorist and claim I am justifying their actions, please back it up. Show me any statements I have made saying as such. Should be easy for ya.

I'm waiting.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by ghash
 


It seems to me that You utterly fail to understand history.

In the decades preceding Israel becoming a Nation again in a day . . . EXTREMELY FEW Arabs or anyone else lived on ISRAEL'S land. It was deserted.

It was unproductive.

Jerusalem was grossly neglected by the Arabs as of little consequence.

Then Israel became a Nation and made the desert bloom again as Scripture predicted

and the jealous greedy power-mongering Arabs--in spite of having ENORMSLY MANY TIMES THE LAND AREA TO THEMSELVES FOR MANY THOUSANDS OF SQUARE MILES ALL AROUND

THREW A FIT

. . . a greedy selfish fit.

I've asked Arabs . . . OK, you say Allah [not God--but pretending] is beneficent, gracious, generous etc.

Therefore--WHY NOT EMULATE THE GOD YOU CLAIM TO WORSHIP.

YOU HAVE MEDINA AND MECCA. WHY NOT GIVE THE JEWS JERUSALEM GRACIOUSLY LIKE THE GRACIOUS GENEROUS GOD YOU CLAIM TO SERVE?

None of them ever has a decent answer to that question.

It's all about !!!!CONTROL!!!! VIOLENCE, CONQUEST, GREED,

God will purge them of that . . . the few that are left when He has done disciplining them.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 09:34 PM
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reply to post by Shillbillyjim
 


The Marxist globalist oligarchy has been skillful at splitting groups and nations into opposing forces for 110 years or so . . . blacks vs whites; left vs right; homo vs hetero; hispanic vs white; Christians vs atheists; etc. etc. etc.

Their goal is chaos and anarchy and mass violence and deaths the world over. They rightly figure that 200 million slaves are easier to keep from deposing them than 7 billion.

However, I don't see Biblical prophecy as indicating anything other than that said Marxist globalist oligarchy WILL BE in control of the planet overtly for at least 3.5-7 years.

Blood WILL FLOW massively all over the planet.

It's one of satan's main businesses and priorities. And he's been working on his plans, schemes, and mechanisms of death for this era for millenia.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 09:34 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


That's funny because you have failed to answer any of my questions directed at you and I have answered most of the questions that you directed at me. So go ahead run away and hide and attack others trying to defend their own country's actions instead of ones ruled by terrorists. Go ahead, because you are not satisfied with the answers that I have given or the examples that I have shown. You have shown nothing but to try and justify everything the terrorists do by your own twisted logic which they cannot even comprehend because they are taught hated filled religious propaganda in their schools not liberal feel good mental state. So thank you for just proving the very point I am trying to make!!!!!



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 09:38 PM
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reply to post by Miraj
 




And it's not that I'm blaming America. To some degree I am, but I have a hard time finding any other logical reason for us to become a target, other than that we have consistently for the past fifty or more years involved ourselves in their affairs for nothing other than our own profit. The foundation of right wingers saying, "It's cuz we're free!" is simply insane. It's a poor rationalization offered to us by politicians who want to make us feel good while inspiring us to support their holy war.


Evidently you have not read the 109+ verses of the Koran ORDERING/ EXHORTING, CALLING, INSISTING that good Muslims MUST destroy, kill, exterminate, spew deadly violence all over non-Muslims until they are wiped from the earth.

HOW DO YOU PROPOSE TO PLACATE such an ideology?

I'm sure offering your neck first will do a lot to win the day for all of us.

And, it just might save your wife and children a few more minutes.

/sarc




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