The Santa Myth: Should we perpetuate the lie to children?

When I have kids they won't need to believe in Santa. I will instill them with a fascination in the unknown and paranormal.

reply to post by steveknows


Thanks for the paganology of Christmas links. Although I suspect you never did read my original post properly nor the fact that St Nicholas was a real historical and very Christian figure. Santa is merely an embellishment of St Nicholas or even a perversion of? You pretty much acknowledged my post rather than argue with it. I will say however that Christmas can be what you want it to be, mean what you want it to mean and make your own family Christmas traditions. The word itself Christmas comes from Christ Mass held on the 25th of December to celebrate the birth of Christ. I doubt this was the original date of the Mass as Christ was born closer to August/September but rather the date or holiday was moved to coincide with the pagan solstice festivals so everyone could celebrate at the same time. Two birds with one stone, so to speak. So I stand by my original statement that Christmas has enough fascinating history of it's own without involving myth and legend. Wikipedia? Not exactly the best source for anything really.

Happy New Year

Cheers

Originally posted by MollyStewart
reply to post by steveknows

 

Thanks for the paganology of Christmas links. Although I suspect you never did read my original post properly nor the fact that St Nicholas was a real historical and very Christian figure. Santa is merely an embellishment of St Nicholas or even a perversion of? You pretty much acknowledged my post rather than argue with it. I will say however that Christmas can be what you want it to be, mean what you want it to mean and make your own family Christmas traditions. The word itself Christmas comes from Christ Mass held on the 25th of December to celebrate the birth of Christ. I doubt this was the original date of the Mass as Christ was born closer to August/September but rather the date or holiday was moved to coincide with the pagan solstice festivals so everyone could celebrate at the same time. Two birds with one stone, so to speak. So I stand by my original statement that Christmas has enough fascinating history of it's own without involving myth and legend. Wikipedia? Not exactly the best source for anything really.

Happy New Year

Cheers

Yes I did read your post properly. Why is it when you don't agree with someone they accuse you of not reading a post properly?

I know what's behind it ok. And the fact is that the Santa concept has pagan roots. Odin who was a pagan God and around long before the concept of Christianity was merged with St Nick and that's how you get Santa.

As for Christ I know that Christmas means Christ mass and I know that the celebration of Christ was moved to out do a pagan celebration as you say and I also know that more than just the time of year came with it. You talk about name meaning, just changing the name of something doesn't automatically change the original meaning of it. They could call it gabslop or gingping if they want but the fact remains that it was a pagan date of celebration long before Christ was thought of and giving it the name Christmas doesn't take that away.

The Christmas tree the mistltoe and the supernatural being who flys through the air has pagan roots. It doesn't matter if it's been turned into a fat dude and it doesn't matter if the tall proud elf warriors of the pagans have been turned into Santas little helpers by the Christians. The legends and and myths were around in one form or another long before Christ was thought of or thought up which ever it may be.

It's historical fact the the church would do these things to wipe out the pagan beliefs but in fact it actually helped to preserve the traditions. More fool the church I suppose.

reply to post by Battleline


Haven't you noticed that, not just on ats but in the real world, that all the armchiar experts on how to raise kids seem to not have any kids?

Originally posted by kosmicjack
The more I think about it, it does seem that, at some fundamental level, it could act to degrade a child's trust in their parents and thus their overall emotional well-being and sense of security.. Sure it's fun, but at what cost?

I know for sure my eight, about to be nine, year old is going to be uber ticked off. He takes things to heart.

Studies show that a child understands the difference between a myth and a lie if they're given the chance to discover truth for themself meaning you'll devastate a 5 year old if you cruely tell them that Santa isn't real but through their own power of observation they start to figure it out as they get older. A child views the learning of the truth about Santa as a right of passage especially if it has younger siblings as the child then takes on the responsibility of knowing the truth. meaning that it's actually an important part of theirr development regardless of what the armchair experts say.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by steveknows

STOP HAVING A GO AT PEOPLE FOR THEIR KIDS BELIEVING IN SANTA!

I have never met a person opposed to Santa in real life yet on ATS they are coming out of the woodwork. What gives?

It's almost enough to make you suspect that there is both a hidden and organised agenda at work.

There does seem to be a war on everything the western world holds dear. I think it's more about unhappy people as a result of the wonder of life lacking in thier lives so they need to attack everything even a childs happiness. This would expalin the expanding beliefs of a conspiracy behind every door as well. And perhaps at the risk of expanding more the conspiracy behind every door, there is a nation, religion or movement behind it but the best thing to do is to hold on to what you hold dear.

I've only got to think of the happiness of the little children at my family get together yesterday and the laughs from the adults after telling them about the utter rubbish I read on this site about the concept of Santa damaging children to know that these people aren't the norm. A drive down the street on christmas day shows that, to the children at least, Santa is alive and well.

reply to post by steveknows


That seems resonable to me. I definitely agree with letting the reveal happen naturally and not just come as shock.

Children's minds are malleable and they have vivid imaginations which can cause them to believe in unreal things. I could see deliberate lies about magical beings causing in some cases minor hindrances to a child's psychological development. You blur the lines of reality when you lead a child to believe that certain impossibilities truly do exist. The early years of brain growth are very important and hold many developmental milestones. How is teaching someone a deliberate impossible lie as truth potentially harmful?

reply to post by FlySolo


Adopted by Christians? Can you please post a viable link to that claim? And are you planning on raising children someday?

Originally posted by FlySolo
Recently, a friend posted on FB how pissed off he was because the mall Santa didn't ask his 6 y/o what she wanted for after waiting 45 min in line. Even his daughter new something was up when she asked if Santa was even real. So now what do you do? Tell another lie or tell the truth? If you chose the former, well, you'll be lying again next year. But more sophisticated lies.

Now, I have never had the pleasure of raising kids, but I'm sure I would never endorse the Santa . For one, while it may seem like a fun white lie at first, I can clearly see the conundrum to follow with re-enforced lies to perpetuate the originating lie. It doesn't sit right with me.

Second, the whole "be good or Santa will forget you" concept is disturbing to me. As a parent, no one would take precedence over me other than the police and only I should be in control of how my child behaves. Not Santa. Resorting to this can not only undermine a parents authority, but what happens when a child doesn't get what they want? Another lie? I don't know, never been there but I can imagine there will be some explaining to do.

The consumer application is an obvious one. Children are asking for ipads for crying out loud lol. Santa has now turned into a consumer's nightmare and used as a merchant to peddle products for corporations.

Who is Santa anyway?

According to a tradition which can be traced to the 1820s, Santa Claus lives at the North Pole, with a large number of magical elves, and nine (originally eight) flying reindeer. Since the 20th century, in an idea popularized by the 1934 song "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town"

en.wikipedia.org...

While Santa is a secular character adopted by Christians, he never played much role in my memories as being a fantastical magical being. I always knew gifts the next morning were from my parents and I always knew where they were stashed beforehand. I do believe in the magic of Christmas and how Santa was a great story back in a time where things were much different, but I think it may be time to let go. Unfortunately, we can't and we are forced to go along with the myth. Forced to continue this lie for the sake of others even if we don't agree. Forced to shop for Santa.


It looks like I'm in the minority according to the link below. 31% no 69% yes. I don't know and please, I'm not a scrooge. Just I think I can see clearly past the Santa bit and it's really lost it's charm. I'm curious about what some of the parents think?


www.helium.com... ng-the-myth-of-santa-claus-good-for-children

Edit to add: This image was floating around my facebook today
To those who have children asking about Santa, how do you explain this?

I guess I started this thread because of this today.

edit on 22-12-2011 by FlySolo because: (no reason given)

Dude! Lighten up!! Kids figure it out after a few years.
When does this insanity end?!? Next thing you know, no more Christmas, No more celebrating New Years, no more Holidays because it might 'offend' someone....So What!!

Originally posted by MichiganSwampBuck
Santa Claus is actually Saint Nicolas, a third century Bishop who gave gifts to the poor. Christmas should be St Nicolas Day. Too bad it's so commercialized today. Christmas should actually occur in June, closer to J.C.s actual birthday.

Yup that's the story I'll be telling my children when they start having doubts about the commercialized santa, but alas I don't have any yet.

I think it's easy to over think what you should or shouldn't say. Santa is only a mechanism of belief, it is important children learn that. I believed in Santa and I don't think it did me any harm, don't see myself doubting what my parents say just because they lied about Santa.

Put it into perspective, it's a great white lie that's shared by those old enough to understand, when you eventually realise the deception you participate for the next generation - it really causes no long term damage imo.

OK Those who believe adults are wrong to encourage a belief in Santa whats your perspective

on a childs OWN vivid imagination??



When my daughter was young she was convinced we had 'faries' at the bottom of the garden

there was no way she would believe otherwise, and she would put small quantities of food out

for them on a table out of a doll's house.When the food disappeared (birds cats fieldmice?)

her beliefs were confirmed. So what should i have done? well i just went along with it didn't

make too much of it and eventually the situation absolved itself.


Then some years later a grandson had two 'imaginary friends' for some time everyone had

to be careful where they sat, if the door was closed before these friends came in etc. They

even had names 'Kevin' and 'Nick' Then one day they were gone....................Was i wrong to

let them believe what they believed in?? They are grown now 'NORMAL' adults asnd NO lasting

effects..........................SO NO HARM DONE in my opinion

reply to post by eletheia


I said this before, but, there's a difference between a child using its own imagination, and imposing a false belief on that child. However, this whole fairy thing could as well be imposed by some stuff she watched on TV or whatever. So.. How far would you go as a parent to refrain your child from being brainwashed by whatever means? Aside from that question, if they come to a conclusion of their own about something, like fairies in the garden, it's something they themselves came up with, and if you try telling them that it's not the case (you should not force them to not believe in this case either), they will realize eventually that you were trying to tell them the truth. With Santa it's the exact opposite. They will realize that you were trying to keep them in a deceiving state.

Originally posted by steveknows

Originally posted by kosmicjack
The more I think about it, it does seem that, at some fundamental level, it could act to degrade a child's trust in their parents and thus their overall emotional well-being and sense of security.. Sure it's fun, but at what cost?

I know for sure my eight, about to be nine, year old is going to be uber ticked off. He takes things to heart.

Studies show that a child understands the difference between a myth and a lie if they're given the chance to discover truth for themself meaning you'll devastate a 5 year old if you cruely tell them that Santa isn't real but through their own power of observation they start to figure it out as they get older. A child views the learning of the truth about Santa as a right of passage especially if it has younger siblings as the child then takes on the responsibility of knowing the truth. meaning that it's actually an important part of theirr development regardless of what the armchair experts say.

edit on 25-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)

Yeah.. So? Like the fairy example above, that eletheia posted, they themselves will come up with tons of such situations. Santa is not needed for that. And of course they will eventually find out Santa is fake. That will still not change anything, especially regarding the trust between parent and child. It's still something that YOU imposed on the child while knowing it's not true. You think the child will not wonder why you didn't tell him/her the truth?

Santa Claus is a slave owner.

reply to post by vasaga





Should have added that they also believed in 'Santa' but i had put that in an earlier post.

And obviously it didn't traumatise my three, as their children were also brought up

believing in 'Santa'

I don't normally delve into the conspiracy forums of this wonderful website. I will also not comment on the attack/confrontational intent of this thread logic. But when I do drink beer, I drink Dos Equis, Stay Thirsty My Friends.

It's historical fact the the church would do these things to wipe out the pagan beliefs but in fact it actually helped to preserve the traditions. More fool the church I suppose.

reply to post by steveknows


Thanks for your response and yes I agree with the above. I am also aware of most of the other gods, traditions dating back hundreds of years bc. All my post covered was that the man St Nicholas was a real historical figure, minus the myth and legend that surrounded him or was woven around him for whatever reason. We can debate the numerous different historical and national customs from around the world but it would seem that it means different things to different peoples for a variety of different reasons. I guess that is what makes it such a special time of year. Listing all the gods, customs and traditions from different parts of the world reinforce my belief that Christmas has enough history including who adopted certain traditions and why, without having to make up more. Having said that, perhaps after a few more hundred years have passed Christmas will have morphed via chinese whisper to something none of us would recognize.

Christmas is a pagan holiday, its disrespectful to celebrate.

Originally posted by vasaga
reply to post by eletheia

 

I said this before, but, there's a difference between a child using its own imagination, and imposing a false belief on that child. However, this whole fairy thing could as well be imposed by some stuff she watched on TV or whatever. So.. How far would you go as a parent to refrain your child from being brainwashed by whatever means? Aside from that question, if they come to a conclusion of their own about something, like fairies in the garden, it's something they themselves came up with, and if you try telling them that it's not the case (you should not force them to not believe in this case either), they will realize eventually that you were trying to tell them the truth. With Santa it's the exact opposite. They will realize that you were trying to keep them in a deceiving state.

Originally posted by steveknows

Originally posted by kosmicjack
The more I think about it, it does seem that, at some fundamental level, it could act to degrade a child's trust in their parents and thus their overall emotional well-being and sense of security.. Sure it's fun, but at what cost?

I know for sure my eight, about to be nine, year old is going to be uber ticked off. He takes things to heart.

Studies show that a child understands the difference between a myth and a lie if they're given the chance to discover truth for themself meaning you'll devastate a 5 year old if you cruely tell them that Santa isn't real but through their own power of observation they start to figure it out as they get older. A child views the learning of the truth about Santa as a right of passage especially if it has younger siblings as the child then takes on the responsibility of knowing the truth. meaning that it's actually an important part of theirr development regardless of what the armchair experts say.

edit on 25-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)

Yeah.. So? Like the fairy example above, that eletheia posted, they themselves will come up with tons of such situations. Santa is not needed for that. And of course they will eventually find out Santa is fake. That will still not change anything, especially regarding the trust between parent and child. It's still something that YOU imposed on the child while knowing it's not true. You think the child will not wonder why you didn't tell him/her the truth?

So you get people like yourself basically saying that the concept of Santa is a bad thing. But then it gets pointed out that studies show that it's not. And then regardless of anything else anti Santa you said your main point of reponse is "Yeah so?"

Oh what you mean is that it's not worth anything unless it agrees with your unqualified unresearched opinion? Sorry fella I'll go with the studies.

Originally posted by kosmicjack
reply to post by steveknows

 

That seems resonable to me. I definitely agree with letting the reveal happen naturally and not just come as shock.

Yeah I think that if you have a kid who already believes then the child must have been alowed to by the parents so it would be a bit rough to one day burst the bubble when it's to young to understand rather than let it deflate.