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The Santa Myth: Should we perpetuate the lie to children?

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posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 05:14 AM
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Originally posted by MichiganSwampBuck
Santa Claus is actually Saint Nicolas, a third century Bishop who gave gifts to the poor. Christmas should be St Nicolas Day. Too bad it's so commercialized today. Christmas should actually occur in June, closer to J.C.s actual birthday.

Here's a quote:

www.stnicholascenter.org...

Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor," Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop of Myra while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to the those in need, his love for children, and his concern for sailors and ships.

St. Nicholas Day, December 6th (December 19 on the Julian Calendar).

edit on 22-12-2011 by MichiganSwampBuck because: Added Quote


edit on 22-12-2011 by MichiganSwampBuck because: Added last line


Sct Nicholas Day is based on a older Germanic paganism and norse tradition called Yule/Jul and was a celebration to the Ravengod Odinn. This lore can be traced back hundreds of years before the birth of christ.


Santa Claus is said to be largely based on Odin, merged with the Christian legend of Saint Nicholas of Myra.[17] Most Christmas traditions in Germanic countries derive from celebrations of the pagan winter solstice holiday Yule as a result of the gradual merging of the two holidays.

Odin was recorded as leading a great Yule hunting party through the sky. Two books from Iceland, the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century from earlier sources, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, describe Odin as riding an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir that could leap great distances, giving rise to comparisons to Santa Claus's reindeer. Further, Odin was referred to by many names in Skaldic poetry, some of which describe his appearance or functions; these include Síðgrani, Síðskeggr, Langbarðr, (all meaning "long beard") and Jólnir ("Yule figure").

According to Phyllis Siefker, children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw, or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy. This practice, she claims, survived in Germany, Belgium, and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas as a result of the process of Christianization and can be still seen in the modern practice of the hanging of stockings at the chimney in some homes.
Source




posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 05:27 AM
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As Bob Marley said. Tell the children the truth.
When it's better to not say the truth then say nothing but don't lie. It's doing mess in their highly suggestible minds, belief and trust system. Children's mind is suggestible as never in age of 7 or so. So you have this tiny window when you can build their personality (or help them build their personality) and you will lie them about world and everything? They may never catch it up.



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 05:49 AM
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Originally posted by Basilis
Am I understanding people correctly when they say they were emotionally scarred because their parents told them Santa Claus existed?

I can't fathom how that would scar a child. I grew up believing in Santa until whenever it was I stopped believing, and I'm none the worse for it.

What harm is there? I just don't understand.


I know right. I can't believe I'm reading this stuff either. It's Christmas eve where I am and my daughter, who is now a young adult, and I have been talking about when she was little as I told her about this thread. She's of the opinion that it must be something else that has hurt them. she said. " better to find out as you get older that Santa's not real then to develope a guilt complex as a child because you can't buy gifts to give back to your parents

edit on 24-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 06:43 AM
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reply to post by Dystopiaphiliac
 


Great post and well said.

If I could give you ten stars I would.

When we all think like this - with love and grace and beauty ... ahhh ...I cannot wait for that time.

Much Peace...



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 06:49 AM
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reply to post by Basilis
 


For starters - Santa is a lie. Lies do damage and some people are sensitive. Some people don't need the media to tell them what to do.

And more importantly - you are not everyone. So you are not scarred that's a good thing but many people are damaged by the concept that their own parents could start a lie and sustain it. Lies do the greatest damage of all. And that is why the cabal/illuminati/whatever depend on lies - but - what a surprise when people realise the lies and their plans come apart - right before their eyes. It is just a matter of time. Santa is merely a ploy to ensure that parents lie like they are supposed to - turn their Children into consumers - obey the television and media and stay in your hypnotised state - until we tell you what to do next. Not forever...

Much Peace..



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 08:15 AM
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It never ceases to amaze me the number of self rightous people who preach that parents

that who allow their children to believe in 'Santa' are WRONG. Who gives them the devine

right to make that decision?


Why is it that they just can't LIVE AND LET LIVE ?


These same people are so self rightous in their own beliefs that they CANNOT believe that

there are other adults who are able to make up their OWN minds, and are NOT being

manipulated by the media and so called 'cabal/illuminati/TPTB' etc. they too have made

their decisions FREELY

WHO has the right to decide which of these people (The believers or the non believers)

are being hypnotised and manipulated???

Thre are always 'two sides to the same coin' so again just LIVE AND LET LIVE



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by Basilis
 


For starters - Santa is a lie. Lies do damage and some people are sensitive. Some people don't need the media to tell them what to do.

And more importantly - you are not everyone. So you are not scarred that's a good thing but many people are damaged by the concept that their own parents could start a lie and sustain it.

Oh come on... Where do you get your 'many people' from? And don't be so disingenuous as to bring it into the realm of lies generally cos it's not the same. I grew up in the 1950s when perhaps the myth was more prevalent. I know no one who was mentally scarred by 'being lied to' in respect of Santa. I fear for our kids if people like you come to hold sway. Dull grey people living in a dull, grey, politically correct world. The sort of world where people call each other 'comrade' because anything else might offend.
Oh I'm sorry I forgot. it's all a big plot to turn people into consumers

edit on 24-12-2011 by starchild10 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by eletheia




It never ceases to amaze me the number of self rightous people who preach that parents

that who allow their children to believe in 'Santa' are WRONG. Who gives them the devine

right to make that decision?


Why is it that they just can't LIVE AND LET LIVE ?


These same people are so self rightous in their own beliefs that they CANNOT believe that

there are other adults who are able to make up their OWN minds, and are NOT being

manipulated by the media and so called 'cabal/illuminati/TPTB' etc. they too have made

their decisions FREELY

WHO has the right to decide which of these people (The believers or the non believers)

are being hypnotised and manipulated???

Thre are always 'two sides to the same coin' so again just LIVE AND LET LIVE
Do most parents actually have a good reason for promoting this? Or is it just conformity / because everyone does it? Or tradition? You see, there is more than a single a good reason not to tell children to believe in Santa. From the most simple ones, that it's simply a lie, to complicated ones, like what it does to them psychologically and what they grow up to believe is important. But the reasons for promoting the belief in Santa are usually (if not always) baseless. They are based in "tradition", and barely anyone questions the history, why it became the way it is, what values it actually has or even destroys etc..

You're constantly talking about people making up their own minds and making their own decisions. But that's negating the social pressures and the whole culture that is trying to get people to participate in this. It's NOT a free action or decision, not for the parents, and particularly on the side of the child. Everyone is always being bombarded by advertisements about this. Something is never a free choice when you're being pressured to do it, whether you are aware of that pressure or not.

You talk about "live and let live", but, what would happen if parents choose not to teach their children about Santa? How will the parents that do, view them? How will the children that were taught to believe view the ones that were not taught? What happened to "live and let live" now?



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by vasaga
 



Do most parents actually have a good reason for promoting this?


1. It's fun.
2. Helps get the kids in bed earlier so you can get the presents out and the toys built (ever try following those directions? You can't build that stuff in 15 minutes).
3. It helps give the season a magical feel for young and old
4. If parents can't get the expensive item, it's easy to blame it on Santa.
5. I'm betting long ago, more kids got chunks of coal. Today, we aren't allowed to disappoint our little angels and this is evident in sports where even those who lose get a trophy.

In all reality, if Santa was talked about year 'round, it would be a serious issue, but he's not. If, for example, Christmas in July was when Santa visited parents for a semi-annual report on their kids, this would be going too far. If mom yelled in March that her boy was being bad and would result in Santa bringing him a chunk of coal, this would be very wrong. but, considering that these things don't happen, I don't consider it psychological abuse. Just a fun tradition that some people are jaded about and would be happy to ruin the fun for everyone.



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by vasaga
 



Yes i believe that people should make up theit own minds even if it means 'going against

the grain' And i taught that to my own children, who believed in Santa for a while.

They have grown up without any issues or psycological scars on that score, and there is

one thing that i am proud of is that i KNOW for a fact and that they know and have said

to others that their Mother does NOT lie.

Their children and their childrens children have all believed in Santa for a while. And you

know i am so proud of each and every one of them. Where ever they go they are well

behaved, honest, polite, well mannered, balanced and 'normal'

That is NOT my biased opinion, but feed back i get from teachers and from people who

have met them.

They have all been encouraged to stand up for their beliefs. Make up their OWN minds

and NEVER be afraid to go against the grain.

So i'd be interested in how the fantasy of Santa corrupts.



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by Afterthought
reply to post by vasaga
 



Do most parents actually have a good reason for promoting this?


1. It's fun.
2. Helps get the kids in bed earlier so you can get the presents out and the toys built (ever try following those directions? You can't build that stuff in 15 minutes).
3. It helps give the season a magical feel for young and old
4. If parents can't get the expensive item, it's easy to blame it on Santa.
5. I'm betting long ago, more kids got chunks of coal. Today, we aren't allowed to disappoint our little angels and this is evident in sports where even those who lose get a trophy.

In all reality, if Santa was talked about year 'round, it would be a serious issue, but he's not. If, for example, Christmas in July was when Santa visited parents for a semi-annual report on their kids, this would be going too far. If mom yelled in March that her boy was being bad and would result in Santa bringing him a chunk of coal, this would be very wrong. but, considering that these things don't happen, I don't consider it psychological abuse. Just a fun tradition that some people are jaded about and would be happy to ruin the fun for everyone.
1) Fun for who? Children can have fun with almost anything. They don't need Santa for that.
2) That's based on the assumption that they need presents in the first place. It's training them to want objects so they can feel good. And this is also where the separation starts, of why some kids get more than others.. And it ingrains the need to be rich later on. Not to mention the issues that this making of all these toys causes to people in other countries..
3) Looking at a snow flake alone is more magical. Besides, children find anything magical which is why they can play with a ball for hours on end, and if adults actually payed attention, they'd notice that magic is all around them in nature itself. There is no need for Santa. The fact that you made a child is magical in itself.
4) That's convenience for the parents, not for the child. Plus, it's also additional lying.
5) Disappoint with what? Not getting unnecessary stuff?

I don't see any of these 5 arguments as something important, particularly because the same experiences can be had by different means and without the need for lying and deceiving, or they are simply dangerous on the long run. Maybe I should leave this here.. Not focused on Christmas, but it's definitely related.



reply to post by eletheia
 


That's fair. Btw to make things clear, I'm not saying "make kids believe there is no Santa", I'm saying "don't make kids believe there is a Santa". The difference is, that you don't mention it to them and don't raise them with the knowledge of Santa.. And if they come and ask you because they heard it wherever, I personally would tell the truth.. It's also a matter of trust, because by lying to your child, you're making it wary of you, and you definitely don't want that..
edit on 24-12-2011 by vasaga because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by Battleline
reply to post by FlySolo
 
No, by all means tell them the truth(or what YOU preceive as the truth) then show them this fine picture you have and let them cry there eye's out.........................and that will make it all better,Instead of allowing them to have some sort of peace during there childhood knowing that when they grow up they will see the horrors of humanity soon enough.

I truely hope you don't have kids,what a sad person.



You don't want me to have kids based on a controversial thread discussion and because I'm sad "allegedly"

What a cruel person you are and out of touch. I like to encourage FREE thinking. You don't know me, my beliefs, or the size of my heart. I truly hope your kids see past your bitterness to those who have a different opinion than you. Who are you to determine who is fit to have kids off a faceless website? I would make a great dad. Jerk.



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by starchild10
 


It isn't a plot. It's a reality. How much money did you spend this Christmas because the television and the radio and the newspaper told you to? Months in advance I might add - mind control for those who notice.

I don't live in a grey political correct world - that is your world. Santa does not exist and never did. Some people are scarred and some do question why their parents lied - because they were playing follow the sheep like everyone else - could not think independently.When you are one of the sheep you will only attract like minded people - that is probably why you have not met anybody who asks questions and searches for answers.

Why can't people be good to one another all year round? Why do people need to be told by Santa? Are people so dependent on being told what to do by a non existent person that they are unable to think about rewarding Children and loved ones - without a direction from the 'idiot' box?

Much Peace...



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 03:27 PM
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Hi everyone!

first of all, I find it deplorable that people start insulting each other over divergence of opinion. Yes there are stupid parents and they will never understand their stupidity (working part time in a restaurant I see plenty (mommy I want....***cry cry***.... ok baby whatever as long as you stop crying...) like that will teach good values.....

anyway, my personal opinion is that the illusion of santa transforms christmas from a day that people spend time with each other and are there for each other (which should be year round) , to the day of ultimate consumerism. Santa is the mascott of consumer capitalism and helps everyone contribute to making the rich richer (opposite of the meaning of christmas). This day has nothing to do with loads of presents under a tree... this is capitalist invention. By fueling the idea of santa, you are submitting your child to an ideology that material is what counts.... just think about all the advertisement directed at children.... there is a reason those were banned around christmas time for Canada.

children would be happy having just one present (as symbolic), but the desire to have more... along with peer pressure from those who literally spoil their children is pushing us deeper down a path of materialistic, egocentric behavior.

To change the world for a better place, we must attack the construct. even something like this can prevent people from seeing a better alternative......

last point... not seeing a solution doesn't mean there isn't one and just because something seems harmless doesn't mean it is. The most effective ways to manipulate people are the subtle ones... the ones that touch on what you've "always known"

no offense intended and happy holidays



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by Amanda5
reply to post by Basilis
 


For starters - Santa is a lie. Lies do damage and some people are sensitive. Some people don't need the media to tell them what to do.

And more importantly - you are not everyone. So you are not scarred that's a good thing but many people are damaged by the concept that their own parents could start a lie and sustain it. Lies do the greatest damage of all. And that is why the cabal/illuminati/whatever depend on lies - but - what a surprise when people realise the lies and their plans come apart - right before their eyes. It is just a matter of time. Santa is merely a ploy to ensure that parents lie like they are supposed to - turn their Children into consumers - obey the television and media and stay in your hypnotised state - until we tell you what to do next. Not forever...

Much Peace..


There's a difference between myth,legends etc and a lie and I think it's an act of desperation when some one calls it a lie. Fairy tales are stories and not lies and part of childhood fantasy and the concept of Santa falls under cultural tradition and myth and is CELEBRATED as so many traditions are. All these people on ats saying it does damage and such and not stopping to realise that there's actually a world outside ats with real people and in that world there's nothing to show what you say is true.

I think that the issues some of you have has nothing to do with the finding out Santa isn't real but something much deeper.



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by eletheia




It never ceases to amaze me the number of self rightous people who preach that parents

that who allow their children to believe in 'Santa' are WRONG. Who gives them the devine

right to make that decision?


Why is it that they just can't LIVE AND LET LIVE ?


These same people are so self rightous in their own beliefs that they CANNOT believe that

there are other adults who are able to make up their OWN minds, and are NOT being

manipulated by the media and so called 'cabal/illuminati/TPTB' etc. they too have made

their decisions FREELY

WHO has the right to decide which of these people (The believers or the non believers)

are being hypnotised and manipulated???

Thre are always 'two sides to the same coin' so again just LIVE AND LET LIVE



So true. I believe that thy're just projecting their own issues onto every one else.



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by steveknows
 


good point... there are a lot of people on ATS that just look for problems everywhere..... although they are not always wrong. Christmas is not the tradition it used to be, it has become a capitalist turntable.

both sides of a coin state a "reality"... the truth an be found somewhere in the middle

oh! and by the way I don't spend all my time on ATS and ... SURPRISE! I do live in the real world.... you know there is a limit between denying and blowing out of proportion



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by DarknessMatters

Originally posted by Dr Expired
Faith...is a thing that is magical.
Satan has replaced Christ as surely as Santa ...hey they even have the same letters in their names...Satans Claws...Santa Claus.


........

Just don't let Santa come down the chimmney to posess the children.

That has to be the worst comparison I've heard in a while. Calling Santa, satan, just because the same letters are there. In fact, Santa means "Saint" and Saint means "of God". So, if I understand your logic, you think Saints are evil because they are Santa's, just because the same letters are there.
One should better educate themselves prior to making outlandish claims.
edit on 12/23/2011 by DarknessMatters because: (no reason given)



of course Santa Claus is all about Satan. Why else would this mythical magical figure exist? Christmas itself is not about God or Jesus Christ. Where did God or Jesus Christ say to celebrate his birthday every year? We have parents telling their children that Santa Claus is a real living being who will bring them presents. That's what Satan wants. If Christmas is supposed to be about the birth of Jesus Christ, when did Santa join the party? Why are people "believing" in Santa the same way or on the same level as Jesus Christ? Some people have commented that telling kids about Santa helps children believe in God. Others have said that it's another myth that kids will eventually find out about like God or Jesus Christ. That said a lot right there. Santa exists to undermine children's belief in Jesus Christ. When they find out that Santa doesn't really exist, they might also think that God doesn't exist. Their parents told them God was real. Their parents told them Santa was real. Santa turned out to be a lie/myth. Hmmmm, so....... what about God?



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by FreeDominator
reply to post by steveknows
 


good point... there are a lot of people on ATS that just look for problems everywhere..... although they are not always wrong. Christmas is not the tradition it used to be, it has become a capitalist turntable.

both sides of a coin state a "reality"... the truth an be found somewhere in the middle

oh! and by the way I don't spend all my time on ATS and ... SURPRISE! I do live in the real world.... you know there is a limit between denying and blowing out of proportion


All I'm saying is that I don't remember any gunmen or clock tower sniper or psychopathic war monger claiming they went down that road when they found out Santa wasn't real. On the other hand what alot of them do have in common is a lack of childhood, dark hearted mentaly abusive parents who wouldn't let them be like other kids.,



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 04:28 PM
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This has more credibility than faceless names doing the bah humbug thing on ats.



ScienceDaily (Dec. 8, 2008) — Having kids believe there's a jolly man in a red suit who visits on Christmas Eve isn't detrimental, although some parents can feel they're outright lying to their children, according to a new analysis by Serge Larivée.


This is researched and not a guess or a twisted view on life.


"When they learn the truth, children accept the rules of the game and even go along with their parents in having younger children believe in Santa," says Larivée, a psycho-education professor at the Université de Montréal. "It becomes a rite of passage in that they know they are no longer babies."



Larivée, along with colleague Carole Sénéchal from the Univerity of Ottawa, examined a study from 1896 involving 1,500 children aged 7 to 13, which was repeated in 1979. More than 46 percent of children in 1896 and 44 percent in 1979 gradually found out on their own that Santa didn't exist.


Hardly destroying the western world as some of you have made out.


The studies also analyzed the reaction of the children once they discovered the jolly old elf wasn't real. More than 22 percent in the 1896 study admitted to being disappointed compared with 39 percent in the 1979 study. But only 2 percent and 6 percent, respectively, felt betrayed.



It seems that the naysayers underestimate the IQ and ability of reasoning in children.


The constant outcome of the two studies was that children generally discovered through their own observations and experiences that Santa doesn't exist," Larivée noted. "And their parents confirmed their discovery




Children ask their parents, for example, how Santa gets in the house if there's no chimney," he says. "And even if the parents say they leave the door unlocked, the child will figure out that Santa can't be everywhere at the same time and that reindeer can't be that fast."



It seems that the belief that children are damaged has more to do with the negative mindset of some ats posters rather than the inability of children to handle the truth.


Larivée says belief in Santa diminishes as children approach the age of reason. "But cognitive maturity and level of thought that would allow a 7-year-old to differentiate between the imaginary and reality are insufficient to let go of the myth," he adds, pointing out that half of children of that age in a 1980 study still believed.


Kids are designed to believe in the super natural with or without your help.


Larivée and Sénéchal now want to explore a deeper question: If children attribute the same supernatural powers to Santa as they do to God, why do they stop believing in Santa, but continue their belief in God?



LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE. THEY'RE DOING FINE.

www.sciencedaily.com...



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