The Santa Myth: Should we perpetuate the lie to children?

Originally posted by TheOneEyedProphet
reply to post by The Old American

 

But why?
why the excuses or the "i refuse to believe otherwise", where is the rationality of that?

The universe is "magical" by nature itself, Fibonacci sequence, chaos theory, electromagnetic anomalies, time space warping, dimensions, etc etc etc, the list goes on and on, but Santa? I mean please all bias aside, what is the point? selling toys? giving fat bearded guys jobs on this time of the year? propagating the double standards of a false life?
If you want your children innocent don't let them near TV or the interwebs, at all, what Xmas is today has a lot to do with spending and overindulging than anything else.



It seems to me Pavlov wasn't so lost after all...

You obviously didn't read my thread, or you'd have the answer. To sum up: I saw Santa in my home when I was a child. It wasn't a neighbor, it wasn't my dad, it wasn't one of my older brothers. It was also when I got my first knife, but neither of my parents knew where it came from. So it isn't a lie, or subterfuge, or irrational, to explain to my son that I think Santa is real. I know he exists in some form, since I saw him.

/TOA

reply to post by seagull


I think it's all depends on how we were raised - and where- in which moment in time also perhaps?

But I mostly agree with your post because I firmly believe that it is of utter importance to keep the Christmas-spirit alive!

Originally posted by DarknessMatters
You're welcome to disagree with my or any one else's opinion on this matter. But that just doesn't change the fact that it's the PARENT'S choice. No one, including you, the government, school's or anyone else; should make decision's like this on behalf of other parent's. And opinions are just that, Opinions. And we're all entitled to form and defend them.

Merry Christmas. I hope Santa leaves you and yours a wonderful stack of brightly wrapped gift's.

Well, I actually disagree with it being the parent's choice as well xD There is a right or a wrong choice independent of either opinion. And it's not really a choice on behalf of other parents either imo, but a choice that will influence the future of humanity as a whole. You might think I'm exaggerating, but that's what it comes down to. How we raise our children will be reflected in society. If we raise them to believe in authority, they will grow up blindly believing that politicians or the government will make a difference, while they can take the power in their own hands to create something better. If we raise them to believe that materialistic goods are the most important measure of caring, they will grow up to have a lot of stuff. This is not what the world needs right now. But if we raise them to stand for truth and understanding, that's what we will bring forth, and we will raise some fascinating individuals.

Although I do sympathize with the view of some others here, where Santa represents something important, valuable, or something that the world is missing.. The only question that comes up is.. Why make it something external? Why not BE what you know is so important yourself, instead of referring to some invisible entity? Living by those standards at all times will accomplish a lot more than thinking about this importance a few times a year.

Maybe I'm naive, but that's how I think =)

But, thanks for your kind wishes. I do not celebrate Christmas though, but I do wish you happy holidays. And instead of gifts, I wish you kindness and understanding.

To play Devils Advocate: Civilization is always based around some founding myths, but our modern age has become immune to the fantasy and mystery of things...So, they're forced to appeal to the naivete of children in order to project their myths which they're so fond of creating into the medium of society

Just analyzing the basic elements of the Santa mythos will reveal many esoteric principles; for instance, Santa is an anagram for Satan - and what is Satan other than the temptation of physicality? And what does Santa offer? Physical presents. And what is an anagram? It is the concealment of an idea within its constituent letters. So hidden within Santa is "Satan", and likewise, hidden within physicality is the gross materialism and subjugation of lust and desire.

It is a clever little allegory reflecting the spirit of the age we live in.

Even going deeper into the elements of the myths, as presented through fairytales or popular cartoons, such as Santa depiction as a fat man - signifying an indulgent nature, his red outfit - a symbol for raw emotion, his elves, which historically have represented nature spirits, i.e. the intermediary forms between the archetypal principle signified by Santa, and human beings (Elves 'make' the presents i.e. they are the forms experienced, as opposed to the principle which emanates the forms), the 8 reindeer, probably correlating with the 8 sephiroth which are 7 powers of the soul, and 1 of the intellect, which essentially describes the aspects of the soul which are influenced, or 'ridden' by the power of Santa (or the inner aspect, Satan), as well as the way in which he imparts his influence i.e. he enters our minds (or houses, since the house is individualized, as opposed to a city, which is a collective) through the chimney, which indicate an indirect and unsuspected entrance, which imply a subconscious influence. When in the house, he leaves his presence under a christman tree, which is another symbol for a 'world'....

The ones who thought this tale up really must have had a ball. It's fun for the kids, and meaningful to the adults, or initiates, who understand it's inner symbolism...

If i had children i wouldn't go down the Santa path, im mildly autistic and my brain is like a computer, it likes facts and thinking of me telling some story about some guy from lapland with reindeers who comes down your chimney, well it would probably look a lot like Sheldon from big bang theory trying to lie. My brain just wont let me.

I would teach my kids more along the lines of it being a time when people give gifts to each other to show love and stay in touch with people, and to send out good wishes to people, and to bring some joy to the cold winter times. In my mind i can see its perfectly easy to be honest with a child and for them to still enjoy the full benefit of christmas. Id rather tell my child that the gift is from me because i love them and not a gift from some fat guy from lapland.

Anyone who ever says "be good or santa wont leave you presents" well, i despair really.

reply to post by FlySolo


To answer your question, I believe there was a commandment that said, thou shall not lie.

Originally posted by FlySolo

Originally posted by Larry L
reply to post by FlySolo

 

OMG OP, you have GOT to be kidding me. Are you seriously taking life so seriously that you would consciously deprive a kid of and Santa Clause?

Here's a newsflash OP, because you were obviously the one and only kid in your life that was fooled I guess and actually thought Santa Clause was real beyond the age of 4 or 5 and must've been incredibly disappointed when you finally found out when you were like 14. But really.....every kid even when I was young 20-25 years ago, who had access to FAR less info than kids today, knew Snata Clause wasn't real. We just all go along with the joke because it's fun and a celebration.

It's the same reason people dress up for Halloween or........tailgate before a sporting event, or do various other things we all do......at least normal people. It's just fun tradition.

So again.....OP, just to drive it home for you. The kids already know their parents are Santa Clause, and you said they're what was it?.......6? If that kid doesn't know he or she will in a year or so. But they will still go along with the gag. Why do you think kids tell THEIR PARENTS what they want Santa to get them for ?

Kids are smarter than you give them credit for or smarter than they act. That's why, or a similar reason, why I won't talk to even little babies in "baby talk". I can remember being like 4 and wondering why my aunt is talking to me like I'm an idiot, lol.

Larry,

Did you really read my post without blinders on? Let me clarify. I never believed in Santa and I already said this in my OP. I was never disappointed so this thread isn't a result of childhood trauma. My god.
My point is Lying about it as if he were actually real. Letting corporations control the story and running with it for consumerism. Using Santa as a means to manipulate kids into proper behavior. And finally, devaluing the trust children have in parents and grooming them to be non questioning consumers.

I have no problem with the story of Santa and his little elves, but I have a big problem convincing children it's true. Why is that so hard for most people to understand?
Let me put it this way. The only reason why everyone goes along with it is because well, everyone goes along with it. Can I come to your house and tell your kids about some made up make believe character that will steal their shoes and eat their food if they don't behave? I think not and I would guess I may even leave your house with a black eye too. But put a few million people behind me and some advertising, I might get away with it.

edit on 23-12-2011 by FlySolo because: (no reason given)

Well first of all, a normal person wouldn't walk into someone's house and do something like that. So what kind of reasoning is what you just said. That's not normal thinking, friend. It doesn't work as an argument.

Secondly.....If you think getting into the spirit of things like Christmas and Halloween and anything else that people do for whatever they are celebrating is wrong to teach kids (personally I think it builds character and creative thinking), I hope you're against any other kind of fictional entertainment/studies. You know.....like conspiracy theory websites, politics or religion, or even more mainstream fictional things like comic books and sci-fi. I mean it's all just polluting their little minds with forbidden things like imagination or ambition.

You're backwoods thinking here reminds of the people back in the 70's and 80's saying things like Dungeons and Dragons and rock n roll music were only enjoyed by devil worshipers who are skinning kittens in the woods praising the all mighty satan. It's rediculous.

Cripes!, It's SO Orwellian this road America is being dragged down from the inside by this crazy progressive agenda to ban all fun (meaning things like Christmas, and trust me, Halloween is next on the hit list) and freedom to have an opinion (like disliking people). Scarey. I fear where this is going to lead. Too many people "on the inside" want to tear down what makes us who we are as Americans. And that is freedom to celebrate whatever we want, however we want as a society, and not have our balls broken over it.

Anyway, I think what you think is silly. But regardless, Merry Christmas, Happy Hunukkah (yea, I don't know how to spelli it lol) and a Kwazy Kwanza to all !!! And OP, I hope Santa brings you everything you wanted for Christmas this year even though you're a Scrooge and don't believe in him.

I am 42 and I still believe in Santa.

Not in the context that most people do. Spirit of giving and generosity ... all that.

Uncovering the lie of Santa is not going to kill your child's imagination. In fact, if you approach it the way my own mother did, it will actually allow Santa to evolve into more of a concept or, way of thought, as opposed to a single individual.

My 2 cents.

reply to post by Larry L

Well first of all, a normal person wouldn't walk into someone's house and do something like that. So what kind of reasoning is what you just said. That's not normal thinking, friend. It doesn't work as an argument.

You know exactly what I mean. Your home is where your family is and that is where your christmas magic happens. You let Saint Nick break in so try not to twist my words.

I hope you're against any other kind of fictional entertainment/studies. You know.....like conspiracy theory websites, politics or religion, or even more mainstream fictional things like comic books and sci-fi. I mean it's all just polluting their little minds with forbidden things like imagination or ambition.

How is this an argument btw? Since when are comic books real? All the things you mention are already known to be fiction. Conspiracy websites Vs Santa Clause? C'mon..

You're backwoods thinking here reminds of the people back in the 70's and 80's saying things like Dungeons and Dragons and rock n roll music were only enjoyed by devil worshipers who are skinning kittens in the woods praising the all mighty satan. It's rediculous.

Backwards thinking? You're the second person in this entire thread with over 200 posts who has blatantly used an Ad hominem attack because of my opinion. No one else. Charming.

But regardless, Merry Christmas, Happy Hunukkah (yea, I don't know how to spelli it lol) and a Kwazy Kwanza to all !!! And OP, I hope Santa brings you everything you wanted for Christmas this year even though you're a Scrooge and don't believe in him.

Thanks again pal. Nice chatting with ya.

Originally posted by DarknessMatters
The belief in a Santa Clause by children should be encouraged. They're children. Let them stay innocent as long as possible.
This whole "War on Christmas" thing is ridiculous at best.

What war on Christmas? It doesn't say in the Bible to celebrate Jesus Christ's birthday. Jesus never said for people to do it either. So you're saying lying to your children should be encouraged? They're children, yes, but there you are, corrupting their innocence by lying to them. They'll stay innocent until they realized you've been making them believe in something that isn't real. Besides, why would a person tell their kids to believe in Santa Claus, when Christmas is supposed to be religious holiday? But parents make their kids forget about God and believe in Santa Claus. Santa Claus is real the way Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny is real. They're fictitious characters. If you want to tell your kids that, that should be okay. At least you aren't lying to them if you tell them that.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
When I was a kid, I loved the Santa myth. I believed in Santa. Now that I have long been an adult, looking back I am very glad the adults of my parents' generation perpetuated the myth. I think it really helps children to begin their belief in God. God is necessary for many of us to make it through hard times. We want to believe that there is a greater purpose, a greater control, than our own. When it comes to Christmas, there is absolutely no harm in it.

Watch the movie "The Santa Claus" and try not to be like the psychiatrist....

Also, it's not so much a lie as a myth. Call it a lie and it has negative connotations. Take it like a perpetuated bedtime story and it is more palpable.

edit on 12/22/2011 by Jim Scott because: (no reason given)

That is so ridiculous. If Christmas is supposed to be a celebration of Christ's birth, why would anybody make children believe in a fictitious being who delivers presents to all the good children of the world? The Santa myth doesn't help children believe in God. For children to believe in God and Jesus Christ, all they need is to be taught. Santa is not necessary. The Santa myth isn't even for the children. It's for the adults. Parents like to fake out the kids and get the kids all excited, but the kids would still be excited about their presents even if they know they are from the parents. It's easy to make the kids believe in the Santa myth, because kids will go along with it especially because there's presents involved. But kids aren't stupid. They know toys and everything else comes from the store. Sure being told about Santa didn't harm me either, but as an adult, I think it was lame for my parents to do that to me. If people have to celebrate at the end of every year and give gifts, why can't they just give them? Why bring Santa into it? As it is, neither God nor Jesus Christ ever said to celebrate his birthday every year and do it with decorated trees and lights or to tell your kids about a fictitious being named Santa.

No.....I don't let Saint Nick in my house. Because once again he's not real. And kids know he's not real usually at a very young age. I did, and so did every kid I knew. Yet we all still got in the spirit if Christmas and Santa Clause. It's not LYING to your kids. It's getting in the spirit.

Since when are comic books real? WTF? Since when is Santa Clause real? Are you saying at one time he was? Santa Clause is just as real as comic books, organized religion and yes.....at LEAST half of the conspiracies on this site. As well as alot of history and science taught in schools. That's the point I'm making. If you're going to forbid some fictional things like Santa Clause and the tooth fairy, why not outlaw all fictional things like comic books, video games, novels....fiction of any kind?

And I said backwoods, I didn't mean backwards, though I suppose it should be back-woods and backwards fits fine as well if you prefer. It's primitive thinking either way. It's the same kind of thinking that would get people killed for saying the Earth isn't flat, or the Witch-Hunts or even the Inquisition. It's pursecution of any beliefs (or actions) you don't like. And it's not a personal attack of any kind. It's my opinion and view on your policy, which you made public for criticism. If someone said......oh....gay bashing is something that person supports, I would say that's back-woods thinking.

And where does this thinking end were you given your way? I hope you aren't a hypocrite and only think Christian symbols and traditions need to be wiped out. You better be against every other religion and culture also no longer having their rights to hold to their traditions. You better tell Jews no more manoras or star of davids. You better tell Muslims they can no longer pray to mecca or wear kuffis. You better tell geeks they can no longer play WarCraft. You better tell all black people they can no longer dance if they feel like it. You better tell all Asians they now have to learn to drive properly, and tell all "Native" Americans "no more totem poles or peace pipes". At what point are you going to stop telling people what they can do if you were the policy maker?

You can't outlaw Santa Clasue without outlawing everything for everybody, otherwise that's not equality, that's discrimination.

Just relax and let people have fun. Let people celebrate whatever holidays they celebrate, in any way they celebrate so long as they aren't hurting anyone.

Short answer is "yes" -- I will continue to perpetuate that lie, as you call it, as long as my kids are having fun with it. Would never stop allowing my kids to believe in Santa. Talk about anal -- that is about as anal as you can get. Funny how this "lie" is so righteously fought while the lie of Jesus is encouraged and believed for decades. Most never come to the realization that "He" is not real and a "Lord" only in the imagination of believers. And to question that lie is pure heresy and considered satanic by many. I don't celebrate Christmas because of the myth of Jesus. I celebrate it as a time for giving, of thinking of someone other than ourselves and putting our daily concerns aside for a while to enjoy our loved ones. And for the kids, anticipating a visit from a friendly, fat elf with magical reindeer adds to the fun.

My parents allowed me, and played along with the idea of me believing in Santa. I naturally outgrew it. I never thought that my parents were liars and never resented them for even a moment. That would be an incredibly petty and whiny response to the good intentions of my parents. They simply wanted me to have fun and saw, as I do, belief in Santa as an indication of innocence. Kids will get over it, just like they stop playing with dolls, toy boats, race tracks or any other sign of childhood magic. Allow nature to take its course but there is absolutely no harm in perpetuating what you call this "lie" of Santa.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
What harm does it do? None. Who can sit here and honestly say they were harmed by believing in Santa?

Kids have great imagination. It is fun and helps to teach the spirit and goodness of giving.

Let them believe.

For all the people that love to point to the Bible because it says df certain things. It doesn't say to celebrate Christmas and tell the kids about a Santa Claus who sneaks into your homes while you sleep and leaves presents if you've been good, or nothing if you've been naughty. If you think or feel you're supposed to celebrate Christmas as a Christian, making your kids believe in an entity other than God and/or Jesus Christ goes against your faith and God does it not? Jesus Christ never told his disciples to celebrate his birthday every year on December 25. It doesn't say to do it in the Bible. Why do people do that? If people want to have a year end celebration with Santa Claus and gift giving, we should just take Jesus Christ and God out of the "holiday" and make it "Festivus". That way, it wouldn't go against God or The Bible, and everybody could participate, Christians, Jews, Muslims and everybody else. I suppose you could tell your kids about Santa Claus being real in the same way Mickey Mouse or Spongebob Squarepants, or the Transformers are real. They're real characters, not real people. Parents are making their kids believe that Santa is a real being.

Let the children dream a little

what next? kill the easter bunny? burn the tooth fairy?

reply to post by Larry L

No.....I don't let Saint Nick in my house. Because once again he's not real. And kids know he's not real usually at a very young age. I did, and so did every kid I knew. Yet we all still got in the spirit if Christmas and Santa Clause. It's not LYING to your kids. It's getting in the spirit.

What are you talking about? The whole point of this thread is about parents who convince their kids Santa is real? So yes, it's LYING. I don't care about those who already know it's make believe. Geez Louis. Er, Larry.

And I said backwoods, I didn't mean backwards, though I suppose it should be back-woods and backwards fits fine as well if you prefer. It's primitive thinking either way.

Yes, you did say backwoods blurry eyes. However, I don't prefer being called backwards. Thanks again for the backhanded remark. Further, it's not regression, it's progression. Santa is almost 200 years old. Looks like you're the one stuck in a time warp friend. I fail to see how moving forward is synonymous with the witch hunting era.

And where does this thinking end were you given your way? I hope you aren't a hypocrite and only think Christian symbols and traditions need to be wiped out. You better be against every other religion and culture also no longer having their rights to hold to their traditions. You better tell Jews no more manoras or star of davids. You better tell Muslims they can no longer pray to mecca or wear kuffis. You better tell geeks they can no longer play WarCraft. You better tell all black people they can no longer dance if they feel like it. You better tell all Asians they now have to learn to drive properly, and tell all "Native" Americans "no more totem poles or peace pipes". At what point are you going to stop telling people what they can do if you were the policy maker?

holy crap dude, chill. You're comparing all that to this:

You can't outlaw Santa Clasue without outlawing everything for everybody, otherwise that's not equality, that's discrimination.

Again, you're reading comprehension of my first post has been blindsided by your preconceived notions. I never said down with Santa. I'm merely posing a valid question. Wow, don't be so Anal. Besides, your kids already know Santa isn't real so why the hell are you even bothering to debate me? You don't even fall into the category of people this topic is addressed to. I think you need to relax and drink some eggnog. Or maybe you had too much...

reply to post by FlySolo


Yeah keep Santa - he sparks imagination at a young age. Without imagination we wouldn't be sitting at our keyboards downloading women; we'd be chipping arrowheads and grunting at farm animals. Case closed.

Santa is a lie - lies do damage and cause great pain - just look at the little girl - Emma in the clip above.

When a lie is handed down from generation to generation - it is not a myth - it is still a lie. I have friends who did not bring their Children up with Santa - Children are grown and are all well adjusted Young Adults. They had family who were worried about the Children coming together with their cousins at Christmas and spoiling the fantasy/lie for the ones who believed in Santa.

When they finally all came together for Christmas the Children who didn't believe in Santa did not spoil the gathering for the Children who did believe - see not telling lies to Children shows that they grow up to be decent. The Children who are told the lies and believe (like I did) grow up wondering why adults lied to them - at least I did and I know I am not alone.

I just want to know why people can't be good to one another all year round?! Santa is a lie and lies are toxic and dangerous. Lies cause pain and heartache and damage the trust in relationships. Santa was spawned by the cabal/illuminati/whatever to bolster control of the population - and that they do - year in year out. Still people are not waking up - it's a ply to control people and make them spend their money on 'stuff.'

I cannot wait until the majority of people have woken up - they will - it takes time to break free that's all.

Much Peace...to all the Children with nothing who will still have nothing after Christmas...some of us are awake and we care...

Christmas has gone from the story of st. nicholas into a twisted season of gross consumerism. Why should we wait until this day to start giving and caring? Christmas day roughly one tenth of a million people will starve to death, statistically speaking. Those people are our brothers and sisters and they are dying right now, while hundreds of millions of people in first world countries dine on fine foods and purchase useless objects. It makes me feel sick.

Am I understanding people correctly when they say they were emotionally scarred because their parents told them Santa Claus existed?

I can't fathom how that would scar a child. I grew up believing in Santa until whenever it was I stopped believing, and I'm none the worse for it.

What harm is there? I just don't understand.