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The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the "Reason for the Season"

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posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


In the spirit of denying ignorance as you said in your OP, i presume you have done some research concerning the claims by Acharya S's .

Your source about the virgin birth :

In the common myth about the birth of Dionysus/Bacchus, Semele is mysteriously impregnated by one of Zeus's bolts of lightning--an obvi­ous miraculous/virgin conception.


Here is a quick Source

Semele is killed by Zeus' lightning bolts while Dionysus is still in her womb. Dionysus is rescued and undergoes a second birth from Zeus after developing in his thigh.


So much for impregnation by Zeus´s lightning bolts.

Your Source :

bearing epithets such as "Only Begotten Son" and "Savior";


Here is another Source:

Zeus had many offspring; his wife Hera bore him Ares, Hephaestus, Hebe and Eileithyia, but Zeus had numerous liaisons with both goddesses and mortals. He either raped them, or used devious means to seduce the unsuspecting maidens. His union with Leto (meaning the hidden one) brought forth the twins Apollo and Artemis. Once again Hera showed her jealousy by forcing Leto to roam the earth in search of a place to give birth, as Hera had stopped her from gaining shelter on terra-firma or at sea. The only place she could go was to the isle of Delos in the middle of the Aegean, the reason being that Delos was, as legend states, a floating island.


Only begotten? Yeah right. As to the savior title, that depends there are many. This page describes his various cult titles and poetic epithets.
:

The first of Dionysos' cult titles refer to his various divine functions, as god of the Bacchic orgy, nocturnal revels, fertility, wine, feasts, freedom and salvation, tragedy plays, the underworld:-


Your Source:

dying; resurrecting after three days; and ascending into heaven.

What kind of death? :

The myth of the dismemberment of Dionysus by the Titans, is alluded to by Plato in his Phaedo (69d) in which Socrates claims that the initiations of the Dionysian Mysteries are similar to those of the philosophic path. Late Neo-Platonists such as Damascius explore the implications of this at length.[32]


Ascending/Descenting:

Prosymnus

A better-known story is that of his descent to Hades to rescue his mother Semele, whom he placed among the stars.[36] He made the descent from a reputedly bottomless pool on the coast of the Argolid near the prehistoric site of Lerna. He was guided by Prosymnus or Polymnus, who requested, as his reward, to be Dionysus' lover. Prosymnus died before Dionysus could honor his pledge, so in order to satisfy Prosymnus' shade, Dionysus fashioned a phallus from an olive branch and sat on it at Prosymnus' tomb.[37] This story survives in full only in Christian sources whose aim was to discredit pagan mythology. It appears to have served as an explanation of the secret objects that were revealed in the Dionysian Mysteries.[38]

When Hephaestus bound Hera to a magical chair, Dionysus got him drunk and brought her back to Olympus after he passed out.

A third descent by Dionysus to Hades is invented by Aristophanes in his comedy The Frogs. Dionysus, as patron of the Athenian dramatic festival, the Dionysia, wants to bring back to life one of the great tragedians. After a competition Aeschylus is chosen in preference to Euripides.

Source

By the way, here is something from Dionysos wild side if you didn´t know :

The wild side of Dionysos is often most visible, both in myth and in ritual, and may be explained by his apparent origins in Phrygia (Near East) or Thebes (Greece), and his connections with Thrace. He is a god of animal incarnations and transformations, and his rites (orgia) included the tearing apart of animals (sparagmos) and eating them raw (omophagia). Dionysos' subversive character is expressed in his rejection of the sacrificial system of eating food cooked according to the proper order (roasted then boiled) in favor of omophagia, the desire to eat raw flesh. The most extreme form of omophagia is allelophagia, in which men devour one another, becoming like wild beasts and ferocious animals. Such behavior allows them to escape from the human condition and get "outside themselves" by imitating those animals least subject to domestication.

Evidence for Jesus and Parallel Pagan "Crusified Saviours" examined


Merry Christmas/Happy holidays/[Insert non-offensive name here].

Peace




posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by dilly1
 





I'll repeat it to you as I did to many others. You have faith in something that you have no shred of evidence of existing,, ever. All you have is faith nothing more. And that is why , very common, for people like yourself to become extremely irked and worried when someone like "Wildtimes" questions your faith that is hanging by a thread(and this includes the muslim faith)(hell all faiths).


Why do you think I am irked or worried? I am neither.. sorry to disappoint.

There is much evidence of what I believe.. in the lives of the saints.. in the apparitions that are happening in this very time of life. Unbelievable miracles given to us by God everyday.. and they exist..in reality..not just in faith.




But I mite add, you are aware that forgery was rampant during Roman times. The chances that Mathew,John,Luke or Revelations were not written by the advertised author is very likely.


Forgery is rampant today as well.. but the evidence of miracles preformed in the name of Christ are not.

You are free to believe as you want... so what is it to you if I believe differently?

We need to agree to disagree..and respect each others choice to believe how they see fit.

















What evidence other than the bible?

You do know saints are idles(I see a lot of statues when I go to church),,which is pretty much paganism if you ask me.

What miracles? Personal ones?

Forgery is NOT rampant in present time. Its called "copyright".

All miracles performed by poor Yeshua are forged and metaphors. You're a hellenistic christian . You don't understand metaphors. Jews and the Essenes did.


Believe what you want . We're posting thru a forum. Hello?



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 07:51 PM
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Christmas is an amalgamation of many festivals and celebrations, most of them pagan. If you want your new faith to be taken up by the pagans then incorporate your celebration with the pagan ones.......simple really.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by wildtimes
 


In the spirit of denying ignorance as you said in your OP, i presume you have done some research concerning the claims by Acharya S's .

Your source about the virgin birth :

In the common myth about the birth of Dionysus/Bacchus, Semele is mysteriously impregnated by one of Zeus's bolts of lightning--an obvi­ous miraculous/virgin conception.


Here is a quick Source

Semele is killed by Zeus' lightning bolts while Dionysus is still in her womb. Dionysus is rescued and undergoes a second birth from Zeus after developing in his thigh.


So much for impregnation by Zeus´s lightning bolts.

Your Source :

bearing epithets such as "Only Begotten Son" and "Savior";


Here is another Source:

Zeus had many offspring; his wife Hera bore him Ares, Hephaestus, Hebe and Eileithyia, but Zeus had numerous liaisons with both goddesses and mortals. He either raped them, or used devious means to seduce the unsuspecting maidens. His union with Leto (meaning the hidden one) brought forth the twins Apollo and Artemis. Once again Hera showed her jealousy by forcing Leto to roam the earth in search of a place to give birth, as Hera had stopped her from gaining shelter on terra-firma or at sea. The only place she could go was to the isle of Delos in the middle of the Aegean, the reason being that Delos was, as legend states, a floating island.


Only begotten? Yeah right. As to the savior title, that depends there are many. This page describes his various cult titles and poetic epithets.
:

The first of Dionysos' cult titles refer to his various divine functions, as god of the Bacchic orgy, nocturnal revels, fertility, wine, feasts, freedom and salvation, tragedy plays, the underworld:-


Your Source:

dying; resurrecting after three days; and ascending into heaven.

What kind of death? :

The myth of the dismemberment of Dionysus by the Titans, is alluded to by Plato in his Phaedo (69d) in which Socrates claims that the initiations of the Dionysian Mysteries are similar to those of the philosophic path. Late Neo-Platonists such as Damascius explore the implications of this at length.[32]


Ascending/Descenting:

Prosymnus

A better-known story is that of his descent to Hades to rescue his mother Semele, whom he placed among the stars.[36] He made the descent from a reputedly bottomless pool on the coast of the Argolid near the prehistoric site of Lerna. He was guided by Prosymnus or Polymnus, who requested, as his reward, to be Dionysus' lover. Prosymnus died before Dionysus could honor his pledge, so in order to satisfy Prosymnus' shade, Dionysus fashioned a phallus from an olive branch and sat on it at Prosymnus' tomb.[37] This story survives in full only in Christian sources whose aim was to discredit pagan mythology. It appears to have served as an explanation of the secret objects that were revealed in the Dionysian Mysteries.[38]

When Hephaestus bound Hera to a magical chair, Dionysus got him drunk and brought her back to Olympus after he passed out.

A third descent by Dionysus to Hades is invented by Aristophanes in his comedy The Frogs. Dionysus, as patron of the Athenian dramatic festival, the Dionysia, wants to bring back to life one of the great tragedians. After a competition Aeschylus is chosen in preference to Euripides.

Source

By the way, here is something from Dionysos wild side if you didn´t know :

The wild side of Dionysos is often most visible, both in myth and in ritual, and may be explained by his apparent origins in Phrygia (Near East) or Thebes (Greece), and his connections with Thrace. He is a god of animal incarnations and transformations, and his rites (orgia) included the tearing apart of animals (sparagmos) and eating them raw (omophagia). Dionysos' subversive character is expressed in his rejection of the sacrificial system of eating food cooked according to the proper order (roasted then boiled) in favor of omophagia, the desire to eat raw flesh. The most extreme form of omophagia is allelophagia, in which men devour one another, becoming like wild beasts and ferocious animals. Such behavior allows them to escape from the human condition and get "outside themselves" by imitating those animals least subject to domestication.

Evidence for Jesus and Parallel Pagan "Crusified Saviours" examined


Merry Christmas/Happy holidays/[Insert non-offensive name here].

Peace


This is the problem with Hellenistic Christians. They take every little detailed word literally and compare it to there holy book(small library). Its the same thing Seed. For love of your christ ,just accept it. You don't lose anything. I'm sure your faith will still be intact. What are you afraid of?



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by dilly1
 


Saints are more than statues.. those are merely reminders of the actual humans that walked with Christ..and through their faith in Christ , Christ was able to perform miracles.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by dilly1
 


Saints are more than statues.. those are merely reminders of the actual humans that walked with Christ..and through their faith in Christ , Christ was able to perform miracles.














Ok, you convinced me



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by dilly1
 


Well Saint Nicholas was a real person, except he didn't wear a red suit, or have magic flying reindeer or have pagan elves working for him and the clothes he wore were browns and greens.

I don't really care about santa, but i think it is wrong to lie to your kids and give the real person a magical attribute and tell them b.s. lies that make him on par with God. I am pretty sure St. Nicholas would be unhappy with what people have done to him and how they make kids believe in him more than God.



I'm dead sure Yeshua , Jacov and Jonhhy B would be more livid if they saw at what christianity has become,even though all three had nothing to do with christianism. Christianism is all about word for word. The Essenes were the complete opposite.


But nooo,,, your Saint Nick would be more shocked .



Your venom, anger and bias are duly noted and frankly, i couldn't care less. You do not understand because you do not know where we come from and how strongly our faith runs deep. I am not even a catholic but a missionary baptist and yes i am sure Jesus is appalled at the lies many christians tell their kids as they forget that there is no such a thing as a "white lie" in their attempts to bring joy to their kids. This is also a major contention between my wife and i as i have already forbid her to even speak about santa to our kids ot teach them that malarky.

It's all about salvation through his grace, for without Jesus not a one of us could ever hope to be with him as we are all flawed men and all sinners.

The only thing we have been forbidden is sexual immorality (orgies, adultery, homosexuality, unmarried sex etc), eating foods offered to idols (and yes putting out a plate of cookies to santa falls under this category), consuming blood and eating strangled things (they retain blood). Your faith in God/Jesus is what purifies you. So despite the santa factor, it doesnt matter what happens during christmas as long as our hearts and minds are on Jesus and we give him our praises, love and devotion during this holiday season. God is no fool, he reads whats in your heart.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by dilly1
 


Well Saint Nicholas was a real person, except he didn't wear a red suit, or have magic flying reindeer or have pagan elves working for him and the clothes he wore were browns and greens.

I don't really care about santa, but i think it is wrong to lie to your kids and give the real person a magical attribute and tell them b.s. lies that make him on par with God. I am pretty sure St. Nicholas would be unhappy with what people have done to him and how they make kids believe in him more than God.



I'm dead sure Yeshua , Jacov and Jonhhy B would be more livid if they saw at what christianity has become,even though all three had nothing to do with christianism. Christianism is all about word for word. The Essenes were the complete opposite.


But nooo,,, your Saint Nick would be more shocked .



Your venom, anger and bias are duly noted and frankly, i couldn't care less. You do not understand because you do not know where we come from and how strongly our faith runs deep. I am not even a catholic but a missionary baptist and yes i am sure Jesus is appalled at the lies many christians tell their kids as they forget that there is no such a thing as a "white lie" in their attempts to bring joy to their kids. This is also a major contention between my wife and i as i have already forbid her to even speak about santa to our kids ot teach them that malarky.

It's all about salvation through his grace, for without Jesus not a one of us could ever hope to be with him as we are all flawed men and all sinners.

The only thing we have been forbidden is sexual immorality (orgies, adultery, homosexuality, unmarried sex etc), eating foods offered to idols (and yes putting out a plate of cookies to santa falls under this category), consuming blood and eating strangled things (they retain blood). Your faith in God/Jesus is what purifies you. So despite the santa factor, it doesnt matter what happens during christmas as long as our hearts and minds are on Jesus and we give him our praises, love and devotion during this holiday season. God is no fool, he reads whats in your heart.


Baptist ,anabaptist ,protestant or catholic(do you see how your faith has evolved), its all the same idea. Forbidding your kids from santa? Wow.. Your that afraid huh?



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by theRhenn
Funny, I see refrence to this every year.

Here is my take on it.

It doesnt matter what it used to be, it's what it is today. We all realise that pretty much any and every holiday is taken from something else. Christian holidays share many other holidays. Many christian holidays took the place of some holidays.

For the love of life, I dont know why this is really a point anymore. I dont think anyone really associates Christmas trees with burning coastal trees, ornamented with adult and baby body parts anymore. To be honest, I would think that "THAT" part of history is better left in the past. If something like Christmas, lighted trees, cookies, pies, and much food takes the place of what some of those holidays really were.... then I'm all for keeping the new traditions instead of the old.


Still, you advise that if this causes problems for the mods to remove it, yet, poking and prodding at someone elses beliefs are never "in good spirit" so to speak.


Oh come on really? What's wrong with taking an alternate perspective on something we're all very familiar with. It takes new perspectives to Deny Ignorance anyway.

Not sure how people here could actually be this sensitive about it, time to grow up children. There's no Santa Claus



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 10:46 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Your post is absolutely correct. As well as your take on religion. Every religion has something to offer, yet most of the prevailing dogmas are aimed at controlling the minds of man rather than liberating his heart and soul.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 10:54 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Oop look out. A bit of truth will get the armies of christ attacking your thread with outright lies and scientific truth twisted and perverted by them to back up the justification for attacking you.

If you can hold them off with facts for a bit I'll cut through all the red tape I can and send you cargo ships of common sense and logic to help you fight the war you've just started.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 12:11 AM
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It's a little close to dies natalis solis invicti to be pi$$ing in the eggnog of the ATS Christians, so I won't be adding anymore pagan knowledge to this thread, though there is scores more, and much Christians can learn from the origins of their faith. Maybe we can pick this up again in a few months when we explain how Crosses, the Easter Bunny, and Dyed eggs predate "Christ" as well.

Blessed Solstice, ATSers.



[Sunrise over Stonehenge - Winter Solstice December 21, 2011]



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 02:24 AM
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The word "Christmas" was derived from "Christ's Mass". Obviously the origin of the holiday is somehow associated with Christ


one word, Yuletide


happy holidays folks, I don't debate this stuff i just read.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 04:11 AM
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Originally posted by TomServo

The word "Christmas" was derived from "Christ's Mass".



To my knowledge, Christ never performed "a mass".

The word "Mass" possibly derived from....Massacre???


Since it has been pretty well established that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25 and no shepherds take their flocks into the fields at that time, and that this date was probably merged to encompass the pagan cultures into xtianity for convenience....then what is the real story here?



Originally posted by TomServo

Obviously the origin of the holiday is somehow associated with Christ,


No doubt there must be some association somewhere. If you look at some of the old Renaissance paintings of the crucifixion, you will find that the people gathered appear to be in heavy winter clothing. You will find also and overabundance of red and green colors used in the paintings. And one of the oddest things I found was that....even over hundreds of years between some of the paintings...you will find characters that are dressed a lot like Santa...even the red cap with the little white ball on the end...and red suits, some trimmed in white. If you would like to check this out for yourself...a good website for these paintings is wga.hu


Also, I think there is a very big hint that has been hidden in scripture and overlooked by most. Many people are confused by the prophecy of the "two witnesses". Some think this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled, and false prophet preachers say the two witnesses are the old and new testaments. I tell you they are both wrong. The two witnesses have come and gone. And guess what happened? People were so glad to be rid of them that they started a celebration and gave each other gifts.





And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev. 11:10


Now, I would like to see this subject in conspiracies where it belongs instead of "off topic discussions".



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 04:13 AM
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excellent thread! the truth is out there if you look!. unfortunately,most don't care about the truth,they care about what to buy their little brats for this fake holiday(holy day).
saturnalia is the reason we have the 12 days of 'christ's mass' drunken debautchery for all!!! all praise Sol Ivictus the invinsible sun! happy solstice to all,and let the days get longer and warmer
blessed be!



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 04:52 AM
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The can of worms has been opened.

Many will look upon this thread and knowingly nod whilst poor OP gets tortured by the inquisition.
Cut your losses and meet us all round the back of the cowshed for a flagon of mead.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:26 AM
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I will say this. Those who know that Jesus was a real person and not just a copy of myths will not be swayed by calling Christmas pagan. Yet those who don't know that yet will insist it's all pagan. But if they are wrong about Christ they are probably also wrong about Christmas having nothing to do with Christ. Besides which the Church has been given authority. Whatever they loosen or tighten on earth will be tightened or loosened in heaven. Since the Church has permitted it, we are justified to celebrate it before God. Just like we are permitted to not have to get circumcision or we are permitted to eat any meat.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by 547000
I will say this. Those who know that Jesus was a real person and not just a copy of myths will not be swayed by calling Christmas pagan. Yet those who don't know that yet will insist it's all pagan. But if they are wrong about Christ they are probably also wrong about Christmas having nothing to do with Christ. Besides which the Church has been given authority. Whatever they loosen or tighten on earth will be tightened or loosened in heaven. Since the Church has permitted it, we are justified to celebrate it before God. Just like we are permitted to not have to get circumcision or we are permitted to eat any meat.


So you're saying that freedom is an illusion perpetrate by God and that people who know different to what Chrstians have been taught are ignorant and living a lie?

That's the same old Christian rant.

A bit of research would show you that alot of pagans don't argue aginst the existence of a man name Jesus Christ but actually just put the whole thing into percpective as in he was only a man. Also it is a known fact that the church has a history of adopting to a point the practises of the religions that it has tried to destroy.
edit on 23-12-2011 by steveknows because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:56 AM
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I wish no disrespect to anyone as we are all entitled to our own set of beleifs...but The OP is absolutely correct.

Christmas is NOT a Christian celebration it was a PAGAN winter solstice festivity loosely based on the Roman festival of Saturnalia which coincidentally fell on December 25th/26th.

One only has to pick up the Children's Ladybird Book on Christmas to find out actually where all these traditional festivities originated from.

There is absolutely No mention whatsoever of the First Century Christians celebrating Jesus birth in the Bible or for that matter in any other writings of historians from that era eg Jospehus and Tacitus. The ONLY celebration mentioned by Jesus for Christians to commemerate was his death and the meal before his death on the Jewish Passover, once a year. Whereby the wine and the bread represented figratively his sacrifice.

Therefore as a Christian I do not celebrate Christmas.

edit on 23-12-2011 by JB1234 because: Added for context



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 06:18 AM
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I don't buy that Christmas has nothing to do with Christ for the same reason I do not believe the claims that Easter is a pagan myth too. Just because other people had similar festivals does not automatically mean Christianity is a copy of paganism. Just because there is a myth about Horus does not mean Jesus was a copy. Just because there were other similar celebrations does not mean those holidays are pagan.




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