The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the "Reason for the Season"

Originally posted by 547000

So converting people with their explicit consent is a crusade?

No, riding into their homeland with a bible in one hand, and a sword in the other is a crusade.

How arrogant to tell these people their religion is not good enough, they need to convert to yours.

"I used to swing at them with a sword, now I just do it with my overly inflated ego.."

WHAT gives you the right? (thats not saving, thats invading)

reply to post by vogon42


You say you are not the one crying persecution here.. yet you blame christians persecution because they chose to persecute...when in fact they were retaliating to persecution in the crusades, and trying to take back what had been taken away from them.

I'm not the one here crying persecution. I just gave the answer to it.
Q: why are christians persecuted in the land of the crusades A: because christians started the crusades NEXT Q: Why does that dog down the street not like me? All I do is kick it once in a while.

And in answer to your question.. read what I got out of wikipedia on the reason the crusades started..the Christians had been kicked at like a dog on the streets...Holy places where they used to worship had been taken from them.

You make no sense in your arguments vogon, and you fail to read the history and reasons behind why certain things happened.. yet you are fine with kicking the dog down the street at every chance you get.. while making up reasons in your own mind why the dog deserves it.

May the love and mercy of God and His Son be revealed to you in a powerful way.

reply to post by 547000

What about India or Africa? No one is holding a gun to someones head and is saying "convert or die".

This might be of interest to you:

Exorcism and Child Abuse in the Congo
May 27, 2009
ABC Nightline recently aired a special program on child exorcisms in churches in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. ...
Most of this abuse is happening in the capital city of Kinshasa and the lives of many children are threatened. It is not happening in mainline churches, but rather in what one calls "Revival Churches" or "Churches of the Holy Spirit". One of the renowned organizations is "Spiritual Combat" that has gained an international following. Pastors of these organizations have generally not received much education and have not been trained theologically. They claim that their authority comes from the Holy Spirit and proclaim themselves pastors, doctors, apostles and other.

globalministries.org...

Human Rights Watch says that self-styled pastors are employed to rid children of their alleged sorcery using torture, beatings and the denial of food.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by gabby2011

You say you are not the one crying persecution here.....

.. yet you are fine with kicking the dog down the street at every chance you get. .....

edit on 20-1-2012 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

OK, you were able to pull your head out of the sand yesterday, try it again today.

I am not the one crying persecution here. I am ANSWERING questions asked about persecution.

Kicking the dog was a rhetorical question aimed at christians wondering why people they abuse/operess/ invade, dont like them.

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by gabby2011

You say you are not the one crying persecution here.....

.. yet you are fine with kicking the dog down the street at every chance you get. .....

edit on 20-1-2012 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

OK, you were able to pull your head out of the sand yesterday, try it again today.

I am not the one crying persecution here. I am ANSWERING questions asked about persecution.

Kicking the dog was a rhetorical question aimed at christians wondering why people they abuse/operess/ invade, dont like them.

You answered the questions incorrectly is what I am trying to tell you...

Oh yeah.. keep up the insults and put downs.. you are displaying exactly what you accuse Christians of. I have seen more insults..nasty comments and insinuations from you ,than I have ever seen from a Christian on this site.



Lord have mercy on you.

reply to post by gabby2011


hey, gabby, as the host of this thread I would ask you to please refrain from attacking other posters.

If you do not agree with the premise that many Christian religions, and especially the Roman Catholics, specifically and deliberately used pre-Christian festival days, icons, chants, statues, candles, incense and low lights and stained glass (in order to create a surreal ooOOaaa kind of atmosphere) and used the locals' superstitious and magickal beliefs to invent ingenious "miracles" (like 'crying' statues; or statues that could not be lifted by any but the pure [held to the floor by mechanical braces until the "favored penitent" came to try and then cranked the anchor so it would be freed]; claimed that a sliver of wood was from the cross; or a rusty nail had pinioned his feet to the cross, etc etc...and also demanded money money money for forgiveness of sins sins sins (oh yeah, and you could buy a whole day or two of pardon if you were willing to help plant the monks garden or build their new dorm)....

If you think these things are lies, and have no wish to be educated about those facts, then you are on this thread to be oppositional. Please contribute without attacking, and rise above the responses that your posts cause. If you want respect, be respectful.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by gabby2011

 

hey, gabby, as the host of this thread I would ask you to please refrain from attacking other posters.

If you do not agree with the premise that many Christian religions, and especially the Roman Catholics, specifically and deliberately used pre-Christian festival days, icons, chants, statues, candles, incense and low lights and stained glass (in order to create a surreal ooOOaaa kind of atmosphere) and used the locals' superstitious and magickal beliefs to invent ingenious "miracles" (like 'crying' statues; or statues that could not be lifted by any but the pure [held to the floor by mechanical braces until the "favored penitent" came to try and then cranked the anchor so it would be freed]; claimed that a sliver of wood was from the cross; or a rusty nail had pinioned his feet to the cross, etc etc...and also demanded money money money for forgiveness of sins sins sins (oh yeah, and you could buy a whole day or two of pardon if you were willing to help plant the monks garden or build their new dorm)....

If you think these things are lies, and have no wish to be educated about those facts, then you are on this thread to be oppositional. Please contribute without attacking, and rise above the responses that your posts cause. If you want respect, be respectful.

edit on 20-1-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

wildtimes..you have a knack for finding the odd charlatans and deceivers.. but you fail to show all the documented cases of REAL miracles done through Jesus , and through the catholic church..

www.medjugorje.org...
These are just a few of the millions of documented cases.

Scripture tells us that you will know by their fruits. And the fruits of Medjugorje are amazing. Over 30 million people have visited Medjugorje since the apparitions began in 1981. I have personally witnessed countless dramatic healings of mind, body, and spirit there over the years. I have been in a parish office in Medjugorje where there are volumes of medically documented healings.

I will not debate with you any longer wildtimes.. because there will come a time when the Almighty will speak, and reveal signs as to who the REAL power in heaven is.. and what it takes to get there. Jesus is the only path to heaven.. and He will judge all souls.

May He have mercy on all of us..and may we all accept the graces needed to fully accept and embrace that mercy.

reply to post by gabby2011


I have never, ever said that prayer doesn't work.

I believe totally in angels being present and doing what we ask....
in spiritual guides that speak to us privately.....
in Jesus as a wonderful and great example of how to live.

I don't understand why you are so hostile toward me. That's the bottom line.

A person can believe the Golden Rule is the correct way to live....
can believe that there are spiritual entities watching, participating in our lives....
can show reverence to the mysteries of nature and the elements.....

and still say that Jesus Christ was a mortal man. A regular man. A great man, a noble and good and exemplary man.....who did, in fact, have the Holy Spirit in him....like many other great men and women before him, and since.

I believe that we ALL have that Holy Spirit within us, just like he taught. Sorry if you want to exclude me, but, you are not in charge of admissions to heaven.
See you in paradise, gabby.
I really do want world peace.

reply to post by wildtimes

I don't understand why you are so hostile toward me. That's the bottom line.

.. I have sent u2u's telling you that I love you wildtimes..and you are in my prayers.. and I hope that we see each other in paradise someday.. (I have weeped praying for you privately).. and you say I am hostile?

I love you wildtimes..bottom line.. and I pray that someday you will see and understand the great love the Holy Trinity has for each of us.

God bless you.. and may your heart and eyes be opened to the great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

reply to post by gabby2011


I answered the question wrong??


Do you even know what a rhetorical question is?

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by 547000

So converting people with their explicit consent is a crusade?

No, riding into their homeland with a bible in one hand, and a sword in the other is a crusade.

How arrogant to tell these people their religion is not good enough, they need to convert to yours.

"I used to swing at them with a sword, now I just do it with my overly inflated ego.."

WHAT gives you the right? (thats not saving, thats invading)

My charity for you is running thin. The only sword in hand are those of locals who are intolerant of other religions. In fact the churches run hospitals, schools, etc. In your opinion it's okay to kill people just because they believe your religion is false?

reply to post by 547000

In your opinion it's okay to kill people just because they believe your religion is false?

WHAT??!! That's an outrageous claim, 547000. He is talking about the Crusades! You know, from history? The Crusades? Crusades wiki

Just war doctrine
The papacy of Pope Gregory VII had struggled with reservations about the doctrinal validity of a holy war and the shedding of blood for the Lord and had, with difficulty, resolved the question in favour of justified violence. More importantly to the Pope, the Christians who made pilgrimages to the Holy Land were being persecuted. Saint Augustine of Hippo, Gregory's intellectual model, had justified the use of force in the service of Christ in The City of God, and a Christian "Just War" might enhance the wider standing of an aggressively ambitious leader of Europe, as Gregory saw himself.

vogon is referring to the Roman Catholic Church financing, organizing, and encouraging these guys to murder people with swords -- the army who went out on Crusades to kill "heretics." He's asking YOU if it's "okay," because it appears that you feel its appropriate to inflict derision on those who disagree with YOUR religion.

Please read carefully and attempt not to twist words so that you can attack. Represent yourself; do not misrepresent others.

vogon, if I am mistaken in my interpretation of what you were getting at, please let me know.
wild

reply to post by gabby2011

You make no sense in your arguments vogon, and you fail to read the history and reasons behind why certain things happened..

Where did Jesus say to "retaliate"? I see lots of "retaliation" nowadays (commonly called terrorism and persecution).
Do you think that just because Pope G 7 (edited to correct; I misread the roman numerals) allowed Saint Hippo to convince him it was okay, then...it's okay? When what the Pope wanted was power power more power?
That's okay?
That's excusable?

Remember, the Christians didn't build the holy land. It was there when he was born. And he certainly never promoted violence. Even he left the place....he didn't decide to stay and fight for it, nor did he go and kill anyone to regain the "rights" to it. He simply moved on. To where? you might ask.
Well, first to Egypt. And then.....
that's right. To study Buddhism.
He didn't care about a big fancy church. He didn't even promote crowds praying together..he said get rid of your material possessions.

So, did the Church do that? no no. A few monks and nuns did that...but not the heads of Church. No. They were landowners, rulers, taxing entities, dispensers of self-serving justice, con artists, plagiarists, fraudulent editors of other people's works, and took it upon themselves to invent a way to get rich and make people go "wow."

Now how can anyone declare that The Crusades, and The Inquisition and burning alive of people was OKAY?

It was NOT OKAY. No amount of "Well, he hit me first" or "He broke into my house" justifies it. None. Those victims of the inquisition were not attacking anyone -- no no, they were rounded up and accused of being sorcerers, witches, etc by their neighbors...their NEIGHBORS, just because that neighbor didn't like them. They heard about how to get the neighbor in trouble, so they tattled...and then watched as the lies, superstitious fear, and plain old revenge were carried out by someone else who claimed to have God's approval. How could they claim that? Because the Pope said so. How does the Pope have the right to claim that? Well, he is God's official spokesperson...

that is ridiculous. It's nonsense. I'm sorry, but it is utter nonsense.

The church knew that the locals were MOST IMPRESSED by magic, and were VERY sensitive to superstition. So, how best to get their attention? Perform "magic" and feed those "superstitions." That will get their attention. Then, go round up the "sorcerers and witches" from the regular people, kill them, and say "they deserved it, because I am right and of God, and they are worshippers of Demons!" Now they are dead...no more competetition to be the deliverance of the sick and poor and superstitious and ill educated. No more herbalist to compete.

It's called a monopoly, and destruction of the competition.
These are facts. This is not some obscure or random charlatan or deceiver. This is The Roman Catholic Church. Closely linked to the Illuminati.

The Medieval Relic Trade

reply to post by wildtimes

Remember, the Christians didn't build the holy land. It was there when he was born. And he certainly never promoted violence. Even he left the place....he didn't decide to stay and fight for it, nor did he go and kill anyone to regain the "rights" to it. He simply moved on. To where? you might ask. Well, first to Egypt. And then..... that's right. To study Buddhism. He didn't care about a big fancy church. He didn't even promote crowds praying together..he said get rid of your material possessions.

Where do you get this information?.. I'm sorry wildtimes..but I do not trust your sources. Jesus left for a brief period away from the holy land to Egypt when Joseph was warned by an angel that all first born males were to be slaughtered.

They came back , and Jesus was primarily taught spirituality by Mary ,and Joseph...as well as His Father who was always in Him. He was taught the ways of Judaism, the first religion ever established on this earth.

He also established the rite of the Eucharist , as well as told Peter that Peter would be the ROCK that He would build His church upon.. so he must have cared some about churches, and people gathering to accept Him in Holy Communion.

Yes.. He did not want people praying in public just to be regarded well by others.. but wanted prayer from the heart,, sincere, and in solitude.. as well as pray with community that was sincere.

You are being deceived wildtimes... and I will keep you in my prayers.

May God bless you , and may the mercy and love of Jesus be with us all.

reply to post by gabby2011

I do not trust your sources.

Well of course you don't, because the Bible and the Roman Catholic Church are not my sources.
No, my sources are historians, scholars, expert theologians, primary documents (written at the time of the event), and everything else I can get my hands on.

And you missed the most important questions in the thread. Fine, even if Jesus never went to anywhere and was busy building furniture or sheds or cabinetry...

would he have authorized the Crusades? Would he EVER have said, "Well, Pope Number One, you just tell those warriors to take their swords, get on their warhorses, and begin to slaughter anyone who interferes with your agenda and the accumulation of wealth and power. They've moved back into their homelands? Well, run 'em out or run 'em through!! No quarter asked, and none given! Take no prisoners, just slaughter them all.

I know you don't trust my sources, gabby, regardless of how widely respected they are, how thoroughly examined and judged to be sound by the top experts. Never mind they are the work of others who have studied, explored, searched, investigated, researched, re-investigated, admitted their criminal actvities (confessing to being a hoax), visited the holy places, spoken to the Buddhists who knew St Issa, and understand what happened. What REALLY happened. You can't make it "unhappen" just by not knowing about it, gabby. By not reading or hearing about it. That does not make it never have happened.

What about the Inquisition? You telling me that is fiction as well? That they did not go from country to country rounding people up for "sorcery" and burning them alive? That they did not torture people?

How can you NOT know these things?? HOW? They are not "speculations," gabby. They are historical FACTS, recorded, documented facts. The Roman Catholic Church has murdered thousands of people. Fact.

The Holy Inquisitions
The Church
"Anyone who attempts to construe a personal view of God which conflicts with Church dogma must be burned without pity."
- Pope Innocent III
The Inquisition was an ecclesiastical court and process of the Roman Catholic Church setup for the purpose towards the discovery and punishment of heresy which wielded immense power and brutality in medieval and early modern times. The Inquisitions function was principally assembled to repress all heretics of rights, depriving them of their estate and assets which became subject to the ownership of the Catholic treasury, with each relentlessly sought to destroy anyone who spoke, or even thought differently to the Catholic Church. This system for close to over six centuries became the legal framework throughout most of Europe that orchestrated one of the most confound religious orders in the course of mankind.

Inquisition Procedure
At root the word Inquisition signifies as little of evil as the primitive "inquire," or the adjective inquisitive, but as words, like persons, lose their characters by bad associations, so "Inquisition" has become infamous and hideous as the name of an executive department of the Roman Catholic Church.

All crimes and all vices are contained in this one word Inquisition. Murder, robbery, arson, outrage, torture, treachery, deceit, hypocrisy, cupidity, holiness. No other word in all languages is so hateful as this one that owes its abhorrent preeminence to its association with the Roman Church.

In the Dark Side of Christian History, Helen Ellerbe describes how the same men who had been both prosecutor and judge decided upon the sentence of heresy. Once an Inquisitor arrived to a heresy-ridden district, a 40 day period of grace was usually allowed to all who wished to confess by recanting their faith.

After this period of grace had finished, the inhabitants were then summoned to appear before the Inquisitor. Citizens accused of heresy would be woken in the dead of night, ordered, if not gagged, and then escorted to the holy edifice, or Inquisition prison for closer examination.

The defendant were known to incriminate themselves at any chance they had to escape the horrors. As Henry Charles Lea describes, one of the conditions of escaping the penalties was that they stated all they knew of other heretics and apostates, under the general terror, there was little hesitation in denouncing not only friends and acquaintances, but the nearest and dearest kindred--parents, children, brothers and sisters--this ultimately and indefinitely prolonged the Inquisitions through their associates.

The Horrors of the Church and Its Holy Inquisition

reply to post by gabby2011

Where do you get this information?.

The Lost Years of Jesus

The Best of the Sons of Men

Ancient scrolls reveal that Jesus spent seventeen years in India and Tibet
From age thirteen to age twenty-nine, he was both a student and teacher of Buddhist and Hindu holy men
The story of his journey from Jerusalem to Benares was recorded by Brahman historians
Today they still know him and love him as St. Issa. Their 'buddha'

In 1894 Nicolas Notovitch published a book called The Unknown Life of Christ. He was a Russian doctor who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch journeyed through the lovely passes of Bolan, over the Punjab, down into the arid rocky land of Ladak, and into the majestic Vale of Kashmir of the Himalayas. During one of his jouneys he was visiting Leh, the capital of Ladak, near where the buddhist convent Himis is. He had an accident that resulted in his leg being broken. This gave him the unscheduled opportunity to stay awhile at the Himis convent.

Notovitch learned, while he was there, that there existed ancient records of the life of Jesus Christ. In the course of his visit at the great convent, he located a Tibetan translation of the legend and carefully noted in his carnet de voyage over two hundred verses from the curious document known as "The Life of St. Issa."

He was shown two large yellowed volumes containing the biography of St. Issa. Notovitch enlisted a member of his party to translate the Tibetan volumes while he carefully noted each verse in the back pages of his journal.

When he returned to the western world there was much controversy as to the authenticity of the document. He was accused of creating a hoax and was ridiculed as an imposter. In his defense he encouraged a scientific expedition to prove the original tibetan documents existed.

sigh

reply to post by 547000


No, I dont really care what religion you are. To kill someone it wrong. I'm just pointing out the crusades were where people are killed in the name of religion.

reply to post by wildtimes

I know you don't trust my sources, gabby, regardless of how widely respected they are, how thoroughly examined and judged to be sound by the top experts. Never mind they are the work of others who have studied, explored, searched, investigated, researched, re-investigated, admitted their criminal actvities (confessing to being a hoax), visited the holy places, spoken to the Buddhists who knew St Issa, and understand what happened. What REALLY happened. You can't make it "unhappen" just by not knowing about it, gabby. By not reading or hearing about it. That does not make it never have happened.

Of course not knowing doesn't make something "unhappen" if it indeed did happen.The theologians of the church have respected sources as well wildtimes.. and just because you do not believe that Jesus died, was buried, descended into hell and rose on the third day...doesn't mean you can "unhappen" it. just because you don't believe that He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the father, and will come back to judge ALL the living and the dead...does not mean it did not happen wildtimes.

I'm not sure what happened behind the crusades but from the little research i have done.. they took back what was taken from them and being defiled.. Holy objects as well as Holy places. I trust that the living God will show me some day EXACTLY what they were about, and I am not sure Jesus would have approved.. but someday I will know.

I the meantime.. I trust in the words of the new testament....and the words of Jesus.. That He is the way the truth and the life...and no man will come to the Father but through Him.

I trust in the words of the saints wildtimes, as well as the words sent to us through Gods chosen, such as the mother of Jesus. Mary was a very devout Jew , without sin, and the primary teacher of Jesus as a child. She had an astute and incredible understanding of Gods words and teachings given to her by the Holy Spirit.Jesus did NOT need a buddhists to teach him the ways of spirituality.. He lived among the holiest of people who walked this earth with His mother and foster father, as well as extended family.

Nope.. you are correct wildtimes ..you can't make something "unhappen" just because you don't believe it did... and Jesus died to save us from our sins and eternal damnation.

reply to post by wildtimes

When he returned to the western world there was much controversy as to the authenticity of the document. He was accused of creating a hoax and was ridiculed as an imposter. In his defense he encouraged a scientific expedition to prove the original tibetan documents existed.

hmm.. so he was accused of a hoax?. So you are telling me this Jesus that they referred to as a teacher and a st. Issa ..was just a Buddhist.. teaching the ways of Buddhism and was not our savior and did not die on the cross .. did not descend to hell , and did not rise from the dead..as well as ascend into heaven?

If you say no.. he did not.. and he was just another man.. that is all the proof I need to see where these writings come from.

Satan loves to come as an angel of light, and anything that does not acknowledge the truth of the death and resurrection of Jesus for the atonement of the sins of mankind are cleverly twisted deceptions.

Someday.. as sure as you are reading this reply wildtimes.. you will know the truth of who Jesus was...still is today.. and will be for all eternity.
Our savior.. who without being washed in the atoning blood of His sacrifice we will never be accepted into the eternal paradise.

reply to post by gabby2011

I'm not sure what happened behind the crusades but from the little research i have done.. they took back what was taken from them and being defiled.. Holy objects as well as Holy places.

Do some research.
What about the Inquisition, gabby?
Okay, more about Notovitch and how he was proven to be NOT a hoax:
en.wikipedia.org...

One of the skeptics who personally investigated Notovich's claim was Swami Abhedananda, who journeyed to the monastery determined to either find a copy of the Himis manuscript or to expose it as a fraud. His book of travels, entitled Kashmir O Tibetti, tells of a visit to the Hemis gompa and includes a Bengali translation of two hundred twenty-four verses essentially the same as the Notovitch text[15], corroborating the existence of the documents.

In 1925, the Russian philosopher Nicholas Roerich also journeyed to the monastery. He apparently saw the same documents as Notovitch and Abhedananda.

There is a documentary and a book on this subject, by Richard Bock, who seems to believe Notovitch's claims (book and film 1976-77, DVD released 2007).[16]

An extended publication regarding the years spent by Jesus in India with extremely detailed historical accounts and pictures are contained in the best seller book "Jesus lived in India" by Holger Kersten.