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The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the "Reason for the Season"

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posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 01:40 PM
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Here is some info that ATS members may or may not wish to know:

I mean no disrespect to anyone for their chosen "faith" or "truth", but in the spirit of Denying Ignorance, I hope this offering will be received with thoughtful and intelligent appreciation.


The December 25th birthday of the sun god is a common motif globally, dating back at least 12,000 years as reflected in winter solstices artfully recorded in caves. "Nearly all nations," says Doane, commemorated the birth of the god Sol to the "Queen of Heaven" and "Celestial Virgin." The winter solstice was celebrated in countless places, including China and Persia, the latter regarding the solar Lord and Savior Mithra's birth. In Rome, a great festival called "Saturnalia" was celebrated from December 1st to the 23rd. The winter solstice festival in Egypt included the babe in a manger brought out of the sanctuary.

Regarding the date of the "Christmas Feast," the Catholic Encyclopedia ("Christmas") remarks:

The well-known solar feast...of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date....

The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cypr., "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "...O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born...Christ should be born." In the fourth century, Chrysostom, "del Solst. Et Æquin." (II, p. 118, ed. 1588), says: "...But Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December...the eight before the calends of January [25 December]... But they call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord...? Or, if they say that it is the birthday of the Sun, He is the Sun of Justice." Already Tertullian (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was not the Christians' God; Augustine (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P. L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical indentification of Christ with Sol. Pope Leo I (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P. L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly reproves solar survivals--Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles' basilica, turn to adore the rising sun.

Ancient Greeks celebrated the birthday of Hercules and Dionysus on this date, as the ancient authority Macrobius (c. 400 AD/CE) maintained. Even the Greek father god, Zeus, was supposedly born at the winter solstice. The "Christmas" festival was celebrated at Athens and was called "the Lenaea," during which time, apparently, "the death and rebirth of the harvest infant Dionysus were similarly dramatized." This Lenaea festival is depicted in an Aurignacian cave-painting in Spain, with a "young Dionysus with huge genitals," standing naked in the middle of "nine dancing women." The Aurignacian period extended from 34,000 to 23,000 years ago.

I fully realize this information flies in the face of many modern Christians, in particular those who subscribe to the creationist and evangelical dogma....it may also surprise some neo-Pagans...to find that the winter solstice has been part of "religions" for a long time, and not ONLY among the Nature Faiths.
I, too, was raised in a Christian family, and as a youth began to question what I had been taught. I do not subscribe to any one faith now: I read all I can regarding each religion, and pick and choose which tenets and thoughts make sense to me (in my mind, and in my soul).

www.truthbeknown.com...

If anyone has previously decided this page (cited above) is not to be shared here, I apologize in advance. I would like to have a calm, reasonable discussion regarding the points made. But, if it is found to be trouble-making, mods, please just remove it!!

Season's greetings, ATS!




posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 01:45 PM
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Saturnalia Festival, hence saturnalia tree.

If you were going to start a religion and needed followers, wouldn't you try to find common ground with other belief systems?
edit on 22-12-2011 by satron because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by satron
 


Yep, I sure would!

And I would NOT say that all the others were heretical, blasphemous crap, nor condemn non-followers of my new faith to eternal suffering unless they believed only what I told them. And gave me money.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 

The word "Christmas" was derived from "Christ's Mass". Obviously the origin of the holiday is somehow associated with Christ, regardless of the fact that many Christmas traditions were stolen from other religion's/culture's traditions. Furthermore, I do believe that Jesus was born in the spring, not on Dec 25. I was raised in a very Christian household, and have always been irritated by facts similar to what you are pointing out in the thread. I still cringe a bit whenever I hear someone say "we celebrating Jesus' birth". Nevertheless, Christmas is what it is. So I have decided to just let it be. Just because all those things may be true, I dont think that is grounds for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Wikipedia has an excellent read on the origins of Christmas and all of it's symbols.


edit on 22-12-2011 by TomServo because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 01:52 PM
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Dionysus: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Killed and Resurrected after Three Days
by D.M. Murdock/Acharya S


Another article from the same site:www.truthbeknown.com...



The Greek god of wine, Dionysus or Bacchus, also called Iacchus, has been depicted as having been born of a virgin mother on December 25th; performing miracles such as changing water into wine; appearing surrounded by or one of 12 figures; bearing epithets such as "Only Begotten Son" and "Savior"; dying; resurrecting after three days; and ascending into heaven.

In studying religion and mythology, it is wise at to keep in mind that in the ancient world many gods were confounded and compounded, deliberately or otherwise. Some were even considered interchangeable, such as the Egyptian gods Osiris, Horus and Ra. In this regard, ancient Greek historian Plutarch (35, 364E) states, "Osiris is identical with Dionysus," the Greek son of God. Dionysus, also known as Bacchus or Iacchus, is likewise identified with the god Aion and referred to as "Zeus Sabazius" in other traditions. (Graves, 335) Hence, we would expect him to share at least some of all these gods' attributes, including being born of a virgin at the winter solstice (Aion), and dying and rising from the dead (Osiris).



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by TomServo
 


I don't think so either...
and yes, it is what it s.

Christ taught very meaningful things; I think he was a great guy. No argument there.

And I am aware where the modern name for the celebration came from: Christ's Mass....
I do, however, have a problem with the commercialization of it....and the loss of it's respectability via consumerism.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


for the origin of Christmas check out this thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:06 PM
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Funny, I see refrence to this every year.

Here is my take on it.

It doesnt matter what it used to be, it's what it is today. We all realise that pretty much any and every holiday is taken from something else. Christian holidays share many other holidays. Many christian holidays took the place of some holidays.

For the love of life, I dont know why this is really a point anymore. I dont think anyone really associates Christmas trees with burning coastal trees, ornamented with adult and baby body parts anymore. To be honest, I would think that "THAT" part of history is better left in the past. If something like Christmas, lighted trees, cookies, pies, and much food takes the place of what some of those holidays really were.... then I'm all for keeping the new traditions instead of the old.


Still, you advise that if this causes problems for the mods to remove it, yet, poking and prodding at someone elses beliefs are never "in good spirit" so to speak.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:06 PM
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reply to post by bestintentions
 


Okay, cool...but that doesn't negate having a discussion in the Religion forum, does it? I invite everyone to contribute...
and I'll look forward to reading through yours!
--wt



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:11 PM
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Yes, every year theres a post about this.

Christians know that Christmas and Easter have nothing to do with Christ.

Constantine and the Roman Catholic church that sprung from it took all the pagan practices to better integrate people into the new roman religion (Ie Priest celibate, Nuns, Easter, Christmas etc).

Hence the protestant reformation, Martin Luther was against many of the pagan believes that the Catholics followed.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by theRhenn
 



poking and prodding at someone elses beliefs are never "in good spirit" so to speak.


How so? My dad once believed that the liquid contained in a can of kidney beans was poisonous. He was taught differently.

Perhaps there are some members on ATS who were previously unaware of these parallelisms. And would enjoy learning where their celebrations came from.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


why so jumpy ?



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 



Christians know that Christmas and Easter have nothing to do with Christ.


They do? Universally? They understand the origins of those Holy Days they see as absolute Truth?

I know that some do. Others are not as well-read.
But oh well. Sorry for beating a dead horse!



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Thats all well in good, but perhaps a little more study on the subject yourself would help, There are christian branches that do not celebrate these things for this very reason, The Jehovas wittness comes to mind, they too like to jump on Christians who practices celebrating the holidays for the same reason you give, and I answer them with the following.

Romans 14




One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.


So to any CHRISTIAN that questions Christmas, it does not matter what the origin is as long as you are doing it for the Lord it matters not.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by bestintentions
reply to post by wildtimes
 


why so jumpy ?


Not jumpy, just aware that some members find these facts offensive. ...



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Common sense takes place here. If you buy a product for eating and part of that product is poison...


errr... I'm sorry. I cant do anything with this comparison. I'd laugh myself stupid. No offence to your dad, but if much of ATS falls into this catagory... I seriously need to find another site to read through. Somehow, I feel that those unfortunate ATSers out there who believe that their kidney beans come in poison juice, will figure out a way to get by somehow. At that point, I simply dont think foil hats will do it for them... Save maybe for a poison filter?



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by TomServo
 


I don't think so either...
and yes, it is what it s.

Christ taught very meaningful things; I think he was a great guy. No argument there.

And I am aware where the modern name for the celebration came from: Christ's Mass....
I do, however, have a problem with the commercialization of it....and the loss of it's respectability via consumerism.


Agreed, that is my least favorite aspect of the holiday!



Christmas gift giving was banned by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages due to its suspected pagan origins.[69] It was later rationalized by the Church on the basis that it associated St. Nicholas with Christmas, and that gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh were given to the infant Jesus by the Biblical Magi.


I also remember reading something else about the Americanization of Santa Clause was used to boost the holiday for economic purposes.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 


Yep, the JWs came to my door last Christmas, while I was grieving the still-recent passing of my father. I told them it was not a good time to call.

I did not say that "all" Christian faiths or denominations or their followers celebrate all Christian holidays....

And I have studied the world religions, thanks.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by wildtimes
 


Thats all well in good, but perhaps a little more study on the subject yourself would help, There are christian branches that do not celebrate these things for this very reason, The Jehovas wittness comes to mind, they too like to jump on Christians who practices celebrating the holidays for the same reason you give, and I answer them with the following.

Romans 14




One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.


So to any CHRISTIAN that questions Christmas, it does not matter what the origin is as long as you are doing it for the Lord it matters not.


Correct. And some of these people are non denominational christians. I know some baptist, and a few non denoms, that do not own a TV for those reasons. I'm sure most "Those bearded guys.. wow I'm so tired", dont. I know some J.W.s that do, however, own a TV.


To me, this is the same as a Athiest complaining (not saying the OP is complaining or an athiest) about Christmas, when they dont even believe in God. Kinda goes along that same line of absolute pointlessness.



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Sure...

I just often wonder why it is Christianity that people like to try and poke holes in the most...

Where are the post questioning Guru Nanak Dev? I mean that's one major religion there, I mean I know Christianity is the major one in the US, but ATS is a world wide forum, and I under stand that statistically Christians are the largest religion in the world. But you would suspect that at least an equal portion of the post on religion would represent the very large populations OF other religions, yet Christianity and lesser extent Islam get questioned the most.

Why are the Judea Christian beliefs systems the ones most attacked? Please take no offense, ATS is a forum for discourse (something I think is lacking in the world) and welcome open debate, its just something Ive always wondered about people who post questioning Christian Beliefs the most.

Even Jewish Faith gets questioned far more than it should based of the percentages... Just a thought.

Top Religions of the world.

Christianity 33.0%
Islam 21
Hinduism 14
Buddhism 6
Sikhism 0.36
Judaism 0.22



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