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Who needs doctrine and dogma? The important thing is to be good person.

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posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by colbe
God can't be where sin is...


Incorrect.

God was in the presence of Adam and Eve when they sinned; God allowed Satan into his presence in the book of Job; and if God is omnipresent, then he is in the presence of sin 24/7. Whoever told you God can't be in the presence of sin was being dishonest.




posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 



I don't agree with your proclaiming yourself to be "divine." You were created by God who alone is divine. He loves you so much, He desires to be present in you, His presence in you is called sanctifying grace.


You are right, this is a discussion forum, and all opinions are welcomed, not just yours. Check your U2s, I sent you one I hope you will read with an open mind. We all, every one of us, have a spark of the Divine within us, how can you dispute this? And the God of the Bible (Yahweh) hates me, and anyone not on the side of the Reptilians. This God even appeared to me once, demanding that I fall down and worship him. I told him where to get off. I do not need, or want to be "saved," nor do I wish to give my heart, soul, and will to a dead man, colbe. I already have explained this Dragon God to you before, colbe, but you ignored me.
This is taken from the King James Bible, friend, look it up if you doubt me on this:

Here is a Biblical description of the Leviathan:

(Job 41:20)
"Out of his [Leviathan] nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth."

And here is description of Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament:

(Psalm 18:8, 2 Samuel 22:9)
"There went up a smoke out of his [Yahweh] nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it."

(Isaiah 27:1)
"Leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; the dragon that is in the sea."

These two are one and the same. Now you can love a Dragon if you wish, that is your right, but I will not. How can anyone dispute that
Yahweh is a Dragon?



posted on Dec, 22 2011 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 

Dear autowrench,

Hello again, have time for a question or comment on your Leviathan post? I gather you have a lot of information on the Dragon God as you said you sent a U2U with information on the subject to colbe.

As you would expect, I took a look at the verses. May I get a couple of details out of the way first? It's Job 41:10, not 20. And I noticed that 2 Samuel 22:9 is just a quote from Psalms 18:8, so there really is only that once source, Psalms. As I say, details.

But a couple of other points. One, is that it is possible that the flame and coals and all that stuff were just a literary device roughly equivalent to "He was as mad as Hell." And anyone good or bad could be described that way.

My second thought also comes from Job. Chapter 7, verse 12. Job was talking to God and said:

"Am I the Sea, or some sea monster, that you should keep me under guard?"

This leads me to believe that "the dragon that is in the sea" was being controlled and guarded by God, and not God himself.

Anyway, I'd be pleased to hear what you think.

(By the way, I don't want to give my heart, soul, and will to a dead man either.)

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by colbe
God can't be where sin is...


Incorrect.

God was in the presence of Adam and Eve when they sinned; God allowed Satan into his presence in the book of Job; and if God is omnipresent, then he is in the presence of sin 24/7. Whoever told you God can't be in the presence of sin was being dishonest.


novastrike,

Yes God is omnipresent, He can see the sins committed on this earth.
I meant in saying God can't be where sin is...

I was speaking about God's presence in our soul. That is why Confession is very, very important to life of your soul. The reason Jesus established Confession. God can't be in you with serious sin on your soul. Catholics call it mortal sin. See...mortal to life of your soul and your soul is where God resides in you.

blessings,

colbe



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by colbe
 



I don't agree with your proclaiming yourself to be "divine." You were created by God who alone is divine. He loves you so much, He desires to be present in you, His presence in you is called sanctifying grace.


You are right, this is a discussion forum, and all opinions are welcomed, not just yours. Check your U2s, I sent you one I hope you will read with an open mind. We all, every one of us, have a spark of the Divine within us, how can you dispute this? And the God of the Bible (Yahweh) hates me, and anyone not on the side of the Reptilians. This God even appeared to me once, demanding that I fall down and worship him. I told him where to get off. I do not need, or want to be "saved," nor do I wish to give my heart, soul, and will to a dead man, colbe. I already have explained this Dragon God to you before, colbe, but you ignored me.
This is taken from the King James Bible, friend, look it up if you doubt me on this:

Here is a Biblical description of the Leviathan:

(Job 41:20)
"Out of his [Leviathan] nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth."

And here is description of Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament:

(Psalm 18:8, 2 Samuel 22:9)
"There went up a smoke out of his [Yahweh] nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it."

(Isaiah 27:1)
"Leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; the dragon that is in the sea."

These two are one and the same. Now you can love a Dragon if you wish, that is your right, but I will not. How can anyone dispute that
Yahweh is a Dragon?


The underlined in your reply is not what you said in another thread. From the Jesus is NOT a copy from Pagan Religions thread:


autowrench:
"Now, my position is this. I am not a human being, per se, I am first and foremost a Divine Spirit, who happens to reside within a human body at this time."


You are a human being made by God. You are not divine.

God is infinitely complex but at the same time simple. He wants you to know, honor and most of all love Him and one day be with Him forever in Heaven. Turn to Him in prayer, it's an easy thing to do. The more you pray, the more you have the desire to pray. And we have the love of
three in one! The love of God the Father, Jesus, God the Son and God
the Holy Spirit.

Do you know that God the Father has actually said if you call out from your heart "Father" just once, this would be enough for Him. See the humility of God.

It reminds me of the prodigal son.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 12:47 PM
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And, as your usual way, you did not respond to my U2, nor my post. Typical religious brainwashing....I feel sorry for you.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 

Yes, I know. Bibles change ever so often. I have about six of them, the oldest being an 1861 issue. Careful examination shows stark differences from today's "New Translation." The book referred to as "the word of God" has been changed countless times since the original writings. In addition to the numerous translations, King James (as one example) altered phrasing, excluded text and re-ordered chapters to suit political and social trends.
Here are some small changes I located:

Asswaged has been changed to assuaged. Basons has been changed to basins. Chesnut has been changed to chestnut. Cloke has been changed to cloak. Enquire has been changed to inquire. Further has been changed to farther. Jubile has been changed to jubilee. Intreat has been changed to entreat. Morter has been changed to mortar. Ought has been changed to aught, and rereward has been changed to rearward.

Why? Because the Bible has been considered a book of law for 2000 plus years of Christians, and political and religious leaders recognize the iconic power over people the book has, still to today.

Example : King James
(Mark 16:17-18) "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." I know of a church in Tennessee that still does this. They will pay up to $150 for a Mountain Rattler, a Moccasin, or a Copperhead.

The Bible can be used as a guidebook, but never take it as literal. And always compare it with earlier writings, such as the Epic, and the Enuma Elish. I also favor the Native America creation stories, as I am part Native. I know a Cherokee Chief who tells that the Cherokee people came to Earth from the Pleiadies.

That all being said, the descriptions are still the same, aren't they?
There is even more evidence for Yahweh being a Dragon too, lots of it.

Some scholars acknowledge that the Name Yahweh comes from the Cannanite Dragon God Yaw, who like the Biblical Yahweh is a god of storms and floods, but is a "son" of the true Creator Elohim, also the name of the Creator in Genesis, not Yahweh. Virtually every world culture had identified the winged intelligent dragon as a real creature, and most of the earliest cultures recognize it as the creature that brought them knowledge of agriculture and technology. This is also true in the Judaic legends with the reptilian "watchers". Many biblical passages imply that Yahweh physically consumed his meat offerings unlike the "fake" gods of other cultures. The Bible is very specific that Yahweh wanted salt on his meat as well, suggesting these offerings were physically consumed (eaten) and not merely burned to ashes.

Jesus stated (rather, the NT stated) the Pharisees were worshipping a creature that was NOT his father. Many Christians claim Jesus meant Satan, but this does not make sense, for the Jews clearly worshipped Yahweh and clearly recognized Satan as a distinctly different creature which they definitely DID NOT worship.
Could Jesus have been referring to the Yahweh dragon? After all he did not call to Yahweh from the cross, but to El. The first paragraphs of the Bible show these are two different entities, for El's creation story is completely different from Yahweh's, far less scientific one. There are many scholarly articles that convincingly argue that originally El and Yahweh are different Entities. This is why there are two completely different creation stories in Genesis, the original, evolution friendly version credited to El and the fairy tale version to Yahweh.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 04:32 PM
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I don't agree with your proclaiming yourself to be "divine." You were created by God who alone is divine.


OK, let's talk about this. I think we can agree that it is a Spirit that animates our human bodies, right? I have seen this Spirit, many times, one of the first times at the birth of my son. I was standing right there, looking over the shoulder of the doctor who delivered him. As my son was pulled out, the doctor tickled his feet, and he sucked air for the first time. As this happened, I saw a silver, wispy like thing come from nowhere and descend into my son. I asked the doctor, "did you see that?" To which he replied, "I see that all the time, son."

I have also seen humans die. when they die, the same silver essence come out of the body, and goes upward. This Spirit has actually been weighed:
How Much Does the Soul Weigh?

The Spirit is the creator of all thought, decisions and viewpoints. The spirit uses a body to operate in the physical universe. If you decide to move your arm and do it then that decision is coming from the Spirit (you) then to the nerve center (the brain) that sends an exact right impulse through the correct nerve channel to the muscle in the body and the muscle then moves the arm. A majority of these movements the Spirit has been setting up on automatic. For example when you move your eyes now when you read this, you don’t take any decisions on that – it is automatic. And by the way, it is not the brain that is thinking – the brain is a center of communications to the nerve channels. The Spirit knows and thinks by itself but uses the body.

Now this Spirit came from somewhere. I personally think it came from, and is a part of, the Divine Spirit we all call God, Goddess, and many names and descriptions. Without this Spirit, if it leaves my body, my body will drop to the ground, dead. This is a fact that cannot be disputed. The human has a Spirit that does not sleep during the deepest sleep. It is powerful, and is Immortal. This Spirit within the human, records all of his/her thoughts, words, and actions. It informs the human whether his thoughts are correct or false, if he has learned to pay attention. It is creative and every human has his own Spirit.

As I have said before, I sometimes see people who were alive, and now are not alive. I can remember past life events. I am not alone here, many can do this. This is the Human Spirit, for if it is not, then what is it? I have seen people who are dead that were not Christian, Muslim, Hebrew, or any other religion. All are happy, and healthy. My Grandfather was a lot like me, he could not stand Christians, and I have seen him run preachers off with a shotgun. He was not in "Hell." The Human Spirit remains forever young, and suffers no symptoms of old age, or health problems. Personally, I think the only people who go to "Hell" are the ones who believe thy will, those who talk about it all the time.

So, when I say that my Spirit is Divine, am I telling a lie, or saying the truth? To say the human Spirit is not Divine is illogical, and ignorant thinking.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by autowrench
And, as your usual way, you did not respond to my U2, nor my post. Typical religious brainwashing....I feel sorry for you.


I just looked at my mail, I don't check it much, sorry autowrench. Thank you for your private message.

You are all around with your beliefs, in one thread you say you are not human but divine, in the PM, you said you are from another planet. NO dear friend.

All the evidence of the supernatural, besides your next "thought" and bat
of an eyelid point to Christ, to the Blessed Trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

I will pray for you. The most wonderful thing is to happen soon. God is going to show everyone in the world who He is....

Hang on till then, pray every day, confess the sins your life.


love,

colbe



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by colbe

novastrike,

Yes God is omnipresent, He can see the sins committed on this earth.
I meant in saying God can't be where sin is...

I was speaking about God's presence in our soul. That is why Confession is very, very important to life of your soul. The reason Jesus established Confession. God can't be in you with serious sin on your soul. Catholics call it mortal sin. See...mortal to life of your soul and your soul is where God resides in you.

blessings,

colbe


You still haven't dealt with the conundrum of God being in the presence of Adam and Eve when they sinned and being in the presence of Satan in the book of Job. He CAN be in the presence of sin. I can accept the omnipresence of him being within our souls as you put it though.

If he can't be within the presence of sin, then he can't be God cause he can't do everything.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:23 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


I do have have beliefs, I have ideas. A lot of them. What did you think about my post about Divine Spirits? We all have one, not just Christians. I do not worship the dead, and never will. I worship the God and Goddess inside, not out there somewhere. You do not know who it is, do you? All you seem to know is what someone told you to believe, unlike me, I read, a lot.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by colbe

novastrike,

Yes God is omnipresent, He can see the sins committed on this earth.
I meant in saying God can't be where sin is...

I was speaking about God's presence in our soul. That is why Confession is very, very important to life of your soul. The reason Jesus established Confession. God can't be in you with serious sin on your soul. Catholics call it mortal sin. See...mortal to life of your soul and your soul is where God resides in you.

blessings,

colbe


You still haven't dealt with the conundrum of God being in the presence of Adam and Eve when they sinned and being in the presence of Satan in the book of Job. He CAN be in the presence of sin. I can accept the omnipresence of him being within our souls as you put it though.

If he can't be within the presence of sin, then he can't be God cause he can't do everything.



Novastrike, thanks for your comment.

Hi, I was talking about God's presence in our soul when I said "God can't be where sin is." And there is no sin
in Heaven. Think of Mary too, she was immaculately conceived, God could not be where sin is, a perfect
example. Why the Father's greeting for Our Lord's mother was "Hail, full of grace."

I don't have the words, sorry, I wish someone would help me out on your question. God is aware, sees all the sins committed by His creation not just the first sin of man. He was present when the fallen angels said "no", I will not serve, the sin of pride.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by colbe
 


I do have have beliefs, I have ideas. A lot of them. What did you think about my post about Divine Spirits? We all have one, not just Christians. I do not worship the dead, and never will. I worship the God and Goddess inside, not out there somewhere. You do not know who it is, do you? All you seem to know is what someone told you to believe, unlike me, I read, a lot.


Personal ideas and opinion mean nothing autowrench. God has revealed Himself. "Divine Spirits" is plural. There is no such thing. If you have been baptized and are free of mortal (serious) sin on your soul, God the Holy Spirit is present in your soul. If you sin and we all do, it is part of our nature. repent with true contrition and confess your sin to God. Catholics have to do more, they must go to Cofession.

You weren't born on another planet, Goddess worship is nonsense. One receives their immortal soul at conception not at birth.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by novastrike81
 

You still haven't dealt with the conundrum of God being in the presence of Adam and Eve when they sinned and being in the presence of Satan in the book of Job.
That was someone named YHWH, not to be confused with who we think of today as God.
YHWH is really more like what we would think of as a mighty angel.
They used some funny terminology in the Old Testament so you have to take that into consideration and it does not mesh with the New Testament which has a vastly superior God.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 05:49 PM
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Sharing, not all, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, concerning the soul. Yes! Life is sacred, a new person body and soul is created at conception.


II. "BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE"

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

368 The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one's being, where the person decides for or against God.239



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 06:17 PM
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Don't you ever read anything but the Bible? Just wondering. I don't believe in a book that men wrote. Why do you?



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by novastrike81
 

You still haven't dealt with the conundrum of God being in the presence of Adam and Eve when they sinned and being in the presence of Satan in the book of Job.
That was someone named YHWH, not to be confused with who we think of today as God.
YHWH is really more like what we would think of as a mighty angel.
They used some funny terminology in the Old Testament so you have to take that into consideration and it does not mesh with the New Testament which has a vastly superior God.


Was God there at the first temptation in the Garden? Maybe not - for when He found Adam and Eve hiding from Him because they were naked, He said, "Who told you that you were naked?" It is almost, and maybe is, as if this were the first He knew of it, for He seemed caught by surprise. On the other hand, it may just have been His way of communicating, and He knew it all along.

No, YHWH was not a mightly angel. If we plug in the very ancient PICTORIAL meanings of the letters of YHWH, it reads, "Behold the nail, behold the hand." FYI, Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. Look for no other.

As to the thread topic, I say that it is not good enough to be good. What if one is a tare? No matter how good that tare is, he/she is going into the Lake of Fire. The Parable of the Wheat and Tares does not hint that a tare can become a wheat. Think about it.



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 06:53 PM
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Was God there at the first temptation in the Garden?


Wasn't it there where God told Adam and Eve a big fat lie? Eat of the Tree, and you die? And the Serpent, if that was really who and what it was, and that is doubtful, told Eve the truth. I thought Satan was the Father of all lies?



posted on Dec, 23 2011 @ 08:56 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 

Dear autowrench,

Thanks for replying to my post. I can see that you've been busy and I'm grateful that you took the time. You've covered a lot of ground, much of it feels very familiar, some doesn't. If you've got the time, will you walk with me while I try to understand this?

I completely agree that we are Divine Spirits residing within a human body. Is it really necessary to say one is "first and foremost?" Yes, the Spirit will live forever, but many believe the body will be ressurected as Jesus' was. Is it safe to say we are both Spirit and Body, and they both have essential parts to play?

Why? Because the Bible has been considered a book of law for 2000 plus years of Christians, and political and religious leaders recognize the iconic power over people the book has, still to today.
You are absolutely right that the Bible is still influencing people today. But, I'm not entirely sure that the Bible is properly described as a book of law. The Old Testament was (and is) a book of law for some Jews, but the New Testament is seen more as a testimony of what people saw Jesus doing and saying. In fact, I think a good case could be made for saying the New Testament is a book of "You are no longer bound by the old law."

The Bible can be used as a guidebook, but never take it as literal.
A lot of the Bible I don't take literally, because it wasn't made to be taken literally. It is full of songs, poetry, and mystic visions. But there are parts of it that are to be taken literally. Some parts of the gospels provide reporting equal to anything you'd get from the New York Times.

Virtually every world culture had identified the winged intelligent dragon as a real creature, and most of the earliest cultures recognize it as the creature that brought them knowledge of agriculture and technology.

I was just looking at another thread that said Horus (or Isis, or one of those Egyptian gods) went around teaching agriculture and architecture. I don't think the Hebrews claimed to learn technology from a winged dragon, but I might have missed it.

Jesus stated (rather, the NT stated) the Pharisees were worshipping a creature that was NOT his father. Many Christians claim Jesus meant Satan, but this does not make sense, for the Jews clearly worshipped Yahweh and clearly recognized Satan as a distinctly different creature which they definitely DID NOT worship.
There's another option here that might have slipped by you. That is the Jews thought they were worshipping Yahweh, but with their lives they showed they were actually worshipping Satan. This charge really riled the Jews up and helped lead to Jesus' death.

I think where I'm going here is that the Bible is a good source for many people. I don't want to comment on what I think about Native spirituality, because I don't know enough. I think earlier in this thread I posted the Church's position on people being saved without knowing Christ. Whether that applies to you is between you and God. I don't think we're all that far apart walking down this road.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 09:01 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 

I completely agree that we are Divine Spirits residing within a human body. Is it really necessary to say one is "first and foremost?"
That would be Gnosticism. (the first quoted sentence)
Christianity believes in a divine spirit of Christ that will come and indwell us.
That does not mean we are not some sort of eternal spirit though if that was true, it is not something considered to be essential knowledge (probably similar to your point in the second quoted sentence) in Christianity, where in Gnosticism, it is.
edit on 24-12-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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