Government Motors Volt Costs Taxpayers $250,000 per Vehicle, page 21

reply to post by buddhasystem

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I gotta say that using the math of "If 10 were Sold" is logical in this.
GM got a Huge Tax Subsidy for it.
The total amount, divided by the current amount sold, or the amount sold for 2011, since the tax year runs Jan 1 2011 to DEC 30 2011, then the math is good.

reply to post by buddhasystem

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Sorry, but the study was based upon then-current facts and figures.

Your efforts are based upon projected domestic production.

China is relevant, as GM has admitted that they are giving China their Volt technology, and are moving more and more production to the cheap-labor BRIC countries.

The recall is relevant because before you can count "sales," a car has to stay sold.

Given a maximum hypothetical "profit" of $1,471 ( at 3.7% margin), just how long do you think we''ll have to wait to see if our "investment" is ever paid off?

And, don't forget the $ tens of billions $ in the bankruptcy bailouts and lost stock value we will NEVER get back!

Your projections are hopelessly flawed, so your accounting is based upon nothing more than imaginary numbers.
The Mackinac study was based on facts on the ground.

Would it make you feel better if the taxpayers only subsidized the Volt to the tune of $100,000/car? $50,000 per car?
$20,000?

Most people I know do not beleive taxpayer money should be used at all to subsidize a specific product from a specific manufacturer in a single industry; so, even a $7,500 "tax incentive" is an unfair distortion of the market!

Here's a question you will never answer:

How much are YOU willing to pay people earning $170,000 to but a car from GM?

jw

Originally posted by jdub297

3 months of "sales"?
The Volt was on the market in 2010!

Hendrick Motorsports owner Rick Hendrick bought one of the first Chevrolet Volts, with the proceeds going to Detroit schools.

Chevy began shipping Volts to dealers this week.

www.autoweek.com...

The Volt was sold initially only in selected U.S. markets and became available nationwide in November 2011.

en.wikipedia.org...

Car manufacturers roll out new models in limited markets all the time. The Volt was not available nationwide until Nov. 2011...now why are you pretending otherwise?

Originally posted by jdub297
Before I was crowing about the Mackinac math, I'd be certain my projections were at least based upon reliable estimates instead of imaginary (and ephemeral) sales.

Before fiercly defended "Makinac Math" I would wonder why it's calculations included absoletly no projections what-so-ever...This last post of yours seems to infer that you understand that the 6k of cars sold is not the entirety of Volts that will be sold? Or is it your intent to defend the fake math unto death?

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by Indigo5

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The Volt officially launched in a Nationwide campaign in October last year..so the numbers are based on the first 3 months of rollout.

You and BuddhaSystem and Dudley are cut from the same cloth: present speculaton as fact, make stuff up, post it as fact and pat yourselves on each others' backs.

Sorry but it was you who posted a fabrication. Imagine that at some point in time only 10 Volts made it to consumers (as apparently was the case at one point in time). You would say that a single Volt contained $1B of govt subsidies? This is complete bullcr@p.

And the first Viagra caplet sold at $1.23, but cost 1.6 Billion to make, plus an additional 2 Billion that they paid in marketing over the next decade after that tablet was sold...lets toss that in in the expense column for that first Viagra caplet.

That is the logic being defended in this OP, I used to think that posters here just needed to be encouraged to think about it...but was quickly enlightened

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by buddhasystem

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I gotta say that using the math of "If 10 were Sold" is logical in this.

Oh, then I rest my argument, because I don't entertain pure absurdity. Suit yourself.

Originally posted by Indigo5
The Volt was sold initially only in selected U.S. markets and became available nationwide in November 2011.

en.wikipedia.org...

Maybe if you relied upon credible "sources" instead of Wikipedia and Youtube, you'd earn some credibility.
Your source is Wiki or U-tube? "Wiki Hoax Dupes Journalists"

If you went to the "source" of the Volt, you'd find the unvarnished, and embarrassing for you, truth:

The Chevrolet Volt is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle manufactured by General Motors. Sales in selected U.S. markets began in mid-December 2010
Chevy Volt on Facebook

I would wonder why it's calculations included absoletly no projections what-so-ever...

Probably because the Volt has no economically viable future whatsoever.

Care to answer my last question:

Here's a question you will never answer:

How much are YOU willing to pay people earning $170,000 to buy a car from GM?

...now why are you pretending otherwise?

My posts are based upon 100% fact, yours are based upon propaganda. I don't have to pretend to know that GM claimed to have sold 7,471 Volts and has recalled 7,571 Volts.

I do not have to pretend that GM built 15,500 Volts but sold less than half.

I do not have to pretend that I can order a Volt from anywhere in the country, despite GM's "limited release."

I do not have to pretend that a market-viable product does not need selected introduction into favorable "limited markets."

The only ones "pretending" here are the ones who've sold-out to the state-planning model of production.

jw

Originally posted by jdub297
Before I was crowing about the Mackinac math, I'd be certain my projections were at least based upon reliable estimates instead of imaginary (and ephemeral) sales.

ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please remember
We expect civility and decorum within all topics - Please Review This Link.

You are responsible for your own posts.

Discuss the topic and not each other!!!

reply to post by Indigo5

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And the first Viagra caplet sold at $1.23, but cost 1.6 Billion to make, plus an additional 2 Billion that they paid in marketing over the next decade after that tablet was sold...lets toss that in in the expense column for that first Viagra caplet.

Nope. Not even close to apt.
No sources, no relevance, no comparison.

Question: How much did the US government subsidize Pfizer's development of Sildenafil Citrate, a heart medicine?
Answer: $0.00.

Sildenafil was found in 1994 during clinical trials as a heart medicine to relax smooth muscle walls and ennhance blood flow.
inventors.about.com...

Pfizer scientists then decided to seek approval for use in treating erectile dysfunction in 1998.
inventors.about.com...

One billion dollars in sales were made in Viagra's first year of production.

inventors.about.com...

Question: How much profit did the Volt generate in 2010-2011?
Answer: $0.00.


deny ignorance

jw

Originally posted by Indigo5
Seriously...what is wrong with you? Your source says the exact same thing mine did??????

"Selected markets"...I am not asking much beyond you actually reading my posts.

The volt rolled out in "Selected markets" ...a few cities...first and then launched nationwide in November.

edit on 9-1-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Seriously? That's what you get for using "wiki" as a "source."

Are you contending that "rolled out in 2010 to limited markets" (from my post) is the same thing as "rolled out in November 2011" (from your post)?

Take a look at a calendar and see how far apart December 2010 and November 2011 are, please. (Ask a grown-up for help if necessary.)
3 months? Nope. Try harder.

Have you even looked to see what "limited markets" even means?

The Chevrolet Volt is being introduced in limited markets at first. Initially available in California, New York, New Jersey, Washington D.C., Michigan, Connecticut and Texas

www.2011chevyvolt.org...

If you want to kid yourself that putting Volts in showrooms serving almost half the US population somehow "limited" their availability, please go on in that make-believe world.

You seem to think that "limited markets" means GM couldn't make enough Volts to sell; yet the truth is that they haven't even sold 50% of their production!

The fact is that the Volt has been available for "pre-order" from GM since its productiion and roll-out began in mid- 2010!

General Motors (GM) first unveiled the Chevy Volt concept in January 2007 and the car began reaching consumers in December 2010

gm-volt.com...
(I guess it took GM a little longer to "overengineer" the cars than they initially thought.)

More than 600 dealers in these HUGE markets could pre-order the Volt beginning in July, 2010!

The 2011 Chevrolet Volt has an MSRP of $41,000. The first 200,000 buyers are entitled to a $7500 tax credit for buying this particular plug-in car.

The only way to purchase or lease a Volt is through certified Chevrolet Dealers.
The launch markets include California, Michigan, Texas, Washington DC area, New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut. A total of 600 dealers in those regions are particiaporting, which represents 90% of the total. The list of certified dealers can be viewed here (PDF).

As of July 27th, dealers can put in orders for Volts for their customers.

From the "GM-Volt.com" website, Copyright 2010!
gm-volt.com...

If people here would deal with facts instead of hype, myth and hyperbole, things would be very nice.
Too bad.

deny ignorance

jw

reply to post by buddhasystem

---

It is very simple.
If you refuse to use the math, in terms of how GM operates, whether it be Fiscal Year or Calendar Year for finances, it still applies.
The Tax Subsidy is Calendar Year based.
The Financial Year for GM could be either, but for this argument, lets have it fall in line with Calendar Year.

Take the amount of Volts sold 2011, 7471.
Take the Tax Subsidy that GM got for year 2011, what ever it is. Now, I know that GM gets several Subsidies. So, apply the one that is directly connected to the EV and place it here.
Now take the amount of Subsidy and divide by the amount sold 2011.
There is the amount. This is very simple.

reply to post by jdub297

---

My post with link.

Originally posted by Indigo5

The Volt was sold initially only in selected U.S. markets and became available nationwide in November 2011.

en.wikipedia.org...

Yours...

If you went to the "source" of the Volt, you'd find the unvarnished, and embarrassing for you, truth:

The Chevrolet Volt is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle manufactured by General Motors. Sales in selected U.S. markets began in mid-December 2010

Chevy Volt on Facebook

In alll honesty it is impossible to have a discussion within someone that appears to deny what there own posts say.

I will leave you to this thread.

Originally posted by Indigo5
reply to post by jdub297

---

My post with link.

Originally posted by Indigo5

The Volt was sold initially only in selected U.S. markets and became available nationwide in November 2011.

Yours...

The Chevrolet Volt is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle manufactured by General Motors. Sales in selected U.S. markets began in mid-December 2010

Chevy Volt on Facebook

I will leave you to this thread.

Promise?

If the issue is abailability, you are dead-wrong!

Are you contending that all 7000 of the recalled Volts were only sold from the seven gigantic markets?
Those dealers, GM online and the Volt website all took offers beginning in July 2010

Have you even looked to see what "limited markets" even means?

The Chevrolet Volt is being introduced in limited markets at first. Initially available in California, New York, New Jersey, Washington D.C., Michigan, Connecticut and Texas

www.2011chevyvolt.org...

If you want to kid yourself that putting Volts in showrooms serving almost half the US population somehow "limited" their availability, please go on in that make-believe world.

You seem to think that "limited markets" means GM couldn't make enough Volts to sell; yet the truth is that they haven't even sold 50% of their production!

The fact is that the Volt has been available for "pre-order" from GM since its productiion and roll-out began in mid- 2010!

General Motors (GM) first unveiled the Chevy Volt concept in January 2007 and the car began reaching consumers in December 2010

gm-volt.com...
(I guess it took GM a little longer to "overengineer" the cars than they initially thought.)

Goodbye!

Watch the Volt discharge over the next 24 months before it goes 100% overseas.

jw

Ford recalling 450,000 minivans, SUVs

Almost half a million.

reply to post by buddhasystem

---

Those models go back more than 10 years, and not one burned up in storage.

And NOT ONE at taxayers' expense!

See how the free market works?

I can't wait to see what Volt figures look like after 10 years.
They've already recalled 100% of their 2010-2011 production!

deny ignorance

jw

reply to post by jdub297

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Looks like the future of the Volt/GM may go the way of Solendra.
www.breitbart.com...

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by jdub297

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Looks like the future of the Volt/GM may go the way of Solendra.
www.breitbart.com...

you are too quick!

just so people see what we saw, here's the story:

Ten years after the Toyota Prius hybrid swept into the market, only about three percent of all cars sold in the United States are electric or gas-electric hybrids, said David Cole, director of the Center for Automotive Research.

"Initially there was probably some excessive exuberance about the green auto," he told AFP.

"But the economics are not attractive yet for the average consumer."

Nissan has sold only 9,700 of its all-electric Leaf in the US market, and General Motors has sold just 8,000 of its rechargeable hybrid the Volt since its launch at the end of 2010, below the targeted 10,000.

Detroit unsure over the future of green cars

Anyone who "projects" Volt sales out to 6, 10 or 25 years simply is not paying attention.

jw

reply to post by buddhasystem

---

Even GM's (soon to be 'retired') Akerson syas they over-shot the mark with the Volt!

At the Detroit Auto Show this week, CEO Dan Akerson admitted that General Motors may have to cut back production of the Chevrolet Volt because the 4,600-plus Volts on the market now are about three times the monthly sales. Other figures put the GM hybrid car’s inventory at an outrageous 120-plus days.

By most accounts, “Government Motors” has stuck with the Volt mainly to please the Obama administration, which still owns a third of its stock in the wake of the 2009 government “rescue” of the company. But just how badly is the effort faring? Well, consider the 1,529 sold in December.

More than a third of those were fleet sales to corporations. None of these were the traditional large-fleet purchasers, i.e. Hertz, Avis and the other big rental companies. They were more like Verizon and General Electric — with GE having committed to buying 12,000 and having already purchased unspecified “hundreds,” with continued “daily” deliveries, as The Wall Street Journal reported recently.

Then there are the direct taxpayer buys. Fifty to New York City. The city of Deland, Fla., brags about buying five with an Energy Department grant. The federal General Services Administration has bought 101 so far, but President Obama has ordered it to procure only hybrid or high-mileage vehicles by 2015. (The taxpayers buy about 60,000 cars a year for GSA.)

Anyway, until GM is transparent and forthcoming about how many (or how few) Volts are selling to private individuals, we aren’t going to know. But several ominous signs suggest that the Volt’s long-term viability may be a risky proposition.

www.nypost.com...]GM’s flop in green: Hybrid is one part lemon, one part taxpayer albatross

Ooops!

So why is this a bad idea?

Taxpayers are rightly grumpy about ponying up a $7,500-per-car subsidy on a car that is generally priced around $44,500 (the median for the 4,612 Volts on cars.com). People who will spend nearly $40K for a small four-passenger car don’t need a subsidy. (Nor, for that matter, do folks who buy a $100,000 Tesla.)

Worldwide, subsidies for all kinds of green energy are being cut — resulting in a true sectoral depression. Solar-energy stocks are down 90 percent. The gigantic wind company Vestas may be acquired or worse.

The Volt will meet a similar fate if the subsidy ends. The chances of that happening are about the same as those of electing a Republican Senate and president: significant.
...
Which is why plug-in hybrids won’t sell. Why prolong the agony? Kill the car now. It’s not cost-effective, and it’s irritating taxpayers in an election year. Much has been learned in its development, including a little economics and the folly of subsidies.

Taxpayers and corporations can’t prop up this flop forever. GM management should end the misery before being told off by the voters, the markets and its own technology.

www.nypost.com...

jw

reply to post by Indigo5

Honestly...you seem like a sharp guy...you see the BS don't you?

Yep.

I saw it when Obama announced he had a "packaged re-organization" for GM and Chrysler to serve his cronies and his failed "green"agenda at investors' and taxpayers' expense!

deny ignorance

jw

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