MJ12. Thoughts please.

Do you think the MJ12 group was a real group. I have a source that would say yes. They were thought to be ''If real'' a government group that really was above top secret which investigated extraterrestrial matters. Many of the documents they brought up were terminated but I want to know if you think they were a myth or an actual group?

I could believe the story of MJ12.
There's a really good thread around here somewhere that goes into deep detail on the history of MJ12 and their possible existence today...

EDIT: Found the thread... Majestic 12 and the Secret Government

Although a group was definitly assembled to help give advice to what all this ment....I believe the MJ12 documents to be a fake.

This doesn't mean that those same people participated...I would just think that someone put the pieces together and got over excited....and decided to make up the truth. Split Infinity

Honestly bro, you need to type majestic 12 into the ATS search engine and read some of the threads then look around on the internet for answers. Asking questions just to start a thread( you have started 4 in the last 2 hours) will not find your answers as your thread will be lost in the jungle of ATS.

Happy Reading.

reply to post by redbarron626


I'm just trying to get some opinions and insight for research.

reply to post by wWizard


Thanks for the link. A lot of help

reply to post by curiousrb


They are/were definitely real, the more you look into it the weirder it gets with this stuff, they would go by a different name now, although as someone else suggested read some of the threads about it.

Happy hunting!

there are alot of thoughts in this thread The Illustrated History of MJ-12
happy hunting

love and harmony
Whateva

Originally posted by curiousrb
reply to post by redbarron626

 

I'm just trying to get some opinions and insight for research.

What are you researching?

MJ12, or our opinions about it?

This story goes deep enough, and is well enough protected, so that any "insider" can say almost anything they want about this story and sound credible to some people.

There are a lot of people who can say that MJ12 exists (or existed) but not very many that are willing to give you a history of what they actually did. So they're kind of like the Greek Pantheon (the "twelve Olympians"). There are all kinds of myths written about them. But are any of them true?

Good luck!

Its really hard for me to dispute what Stanton Friedman says. I hold him in high regard when it comes to Ufology. To me, he is one of the "good guys" in the field.

I dont take what he says at face value, however, I also do not write off what he says.

reply to post by l_e_cox


I just want to get idea of whether people sway to the fact or fiction side. To help me decide on some of the information that could be borderline.

reply to post by curiousrb
I'm almost certain the MJ-12 docs are faked and they don't seem to go further back than Bill Moore and Jamie Shandera. Stan Friedman is sticking to his guns whilst almost no other serious researcher accepts them.

A big clincher came this year when Kevin Randle was chasing up a saucer crash claim. For me, this is the smack-down. In the Eisenhower Briefing Document, they describe a saucer crash and failed recovery (too burnt) at Del Rio/ El Indio–Guerrero (Page 5)..



Randle (Absence of Evidence) proved that the guy who claimed to have seen the crash site had not. The guy, Willingham, had claimed to be a high-ranking officer and had told Moore about his alleged sighting. Because Willingham was taken to be a good witness, the claim was taken seriously too. In fact, the alleged saucer crash came solely from Willingham and nobody else.

Randle proved it a hoax by showing that Willingham was lying and hadn't been an officer at all. This meant that he was wasn't flying over Del Rio on any of the various dates/years he had said.

By extension, a Govt document wouldn't be detailing a crash that had never happened!

This doesn't automatically mean that Bill Moore was behind the MJ-12 hoax, but it puts him slap bang in the middle of it and the trail stops there. Of course, Doty is in the mix too and a great deal of the BS in ufology arises directly from their activities.

Thinking logically, one needs only to consider this simple fact.

If you were a president who had just found out aliens are here and you wanted to keep it secret, you would have to assign a secret group to handle such events. So regardless of what the group is called you can bet your bottom dollar there is a group.

We know there is a group also because we have had confirmation from the Pentagon alien war games. Yes it is on the record that the pentagon takes this very seriously and has wargamed alien invasion scenarios. If the pentagon takes it this seriously you can bet there is a secret group to handle this stuff.

The group is probably called MJ12, if not then it will still be known to the public as MJ12, so yes MJ12 exists, logically speaking.

Originally posted by TheMindWar
(...)
If the pentagon takes it this seriously you can bet there is a secret group to handle this stuff.

The group is probably called MJ12, if not then it will still be known to the public as MJ12, so yes MJ12 exists, logically speaking.

Very obviously, indeed. I had started (a while ago) a thread about Doty & Capt Collins. There is some interesting information about MJ12 and their implications in cover up / debunking / forging of docs / etc.

That thread is here. (needs RATS access)

Remark: I am not particularly trying to revive an old thread, although a interesting contribution to the orginal subject will allways interest me, but I believe that it is simply a good point to start linking things together.

Also, it is mentioned in there by Gazrok himself that he was at the time starting his building his own thread about the MJ12. It was linked above, I re-link it as it is a pure wonder and a wealth of information:
The Illustrated history of MJ-12

Originally posted by Kandinsky
This doesn't automatically mean that Bill Moore was behind the MJ-12 hoax, but it puts him slap bang in the middle of it and the trail stops there. Of course, Doty is in the mix too and a great deal of the BS in ufology arises directly from their activities.

I think Doty fed a lot of this material to Moore. At a rough but educated guess.

AFOSI (Falcon) -> Doty -> Moore (First mention of MJ-12 in Aquarius Document) -> Bennewitz/Friedman

There's more to it than that but AFOSI are behind it. The FBI were on to them I reckon.

reply to post by Pimander

I think Doty fed a lot of this material to Moore. At a rough but educated guess.

AFOSI (Falcon) -> Doty -> Moore (First mention of MJ-12 in Aquarius Document) -> Bennewitz/Friedman

According to Brad Sparks and the Bob Pratt tapes, Moore was feeding Doty information. He says as much, on tape, to Bob Pratt. He also planned to fake documents as he put it, to 'flush out' the genuine facts about Roswell and suchlike. With Pratt recording all their conversations (!), Moore planned to write a book about guess what? Yup! MJ-12 and the stuff that came out in the early documents much later.

This all puts Moore in the frame for hoaxing the documents himself and gives motivation and subject knowledge too. Doty was in there as well, but it's never been clear how much he was encouraged by AFOSI or whether he and Moore colluded in a scheme to make money. Perhaps there was AFOSI authorisation and they *still* went after money via the hoax?

ETA: Here's the 2007 MUFON Symposium paper. Brad Sparks' article is Page 6

“When Bill Moore and I were writing the book, it was my understanding that AFOSI agent
Richard Doty was a silent third partner in the book and that he would have certain veto rights
over the manuscript. One of the early drafts allegedly was given to him to read and it came back
with a number of interesting technical details added, such as weaponry, code words, etc....

“The original idea behind the book was Project Aquarius. In January 1982, I happened to be in
Houston and flew out to Phoenix to visit Bill at his request. He wanted to talk to me about
something he couldn’t discuss on the phone. He was in bed with a bad back at the time, and as
I sat in a chair and took notes he told me about Project Aquarius, MJ-12 and a number of other
things. He said he had a Deep Throat source, and either then or later, as I worked on the book,
I understood his source to be Richard Doty, the AFOSI agent.

reply to post by Kandinsky

Moore was feeding Doty information

Well yes, in a certain sense. The fact is that they both were feeding each other with information. And they both had their own motivations. Their own purpose in the matter. Now, as for deciding who was manipulating who, it is too unclear to decide, and again in a certain sense, they were both manipulating each other also.

Perhaps the motivations in the very first place were to actually cut the grass right under the feet of those who were close to expose the reality of MJ12 and the such to the general public.

This all puts Moore in the frame for hoaxing the documents himself

Indeed. It has long been debated (still is actually) whether the Aquarius documents and the MJ12 documents were real or not. But rather than stating they are faked or hoaxed, or real, I would rather try to concentrate on what part of them has been (re)forged. It is beyond doubt that a part, at least, of those documents is real.

or whether he and Moore colluded in a scheme to make money

I have never believed that they had any sort of agreement on any sort of financial purpose. It was not about it. It was not a business. It was part of a "game".

I personnally believe that any money making involved in there was actually part of the plan to bring discredit on the whole affair. Indeed it is not rare, not to say it's automatic, that when one sees somebody trying to sell his sensational stuff, they are considered purely as moneygrabbers who would sell anything for a banknote. Anything including almost exclusively totally made up crap.

My general feeling about the whole story (and man it's a big thing !) is that in order to keep the thing secret and protected, they had to give out part of it but fill it with as much as possible discrepancies, contradictions, faked documents and so on, so that it is only considered as impossible to be real by people.

There is no smoke without a fire, as the saying goes. And sometimes, to keep a thing secret, you need to give it away as widely as possible, but in an unbelievable form. The original thing will then be preserved.

[Edit:]
This being said, one has to admit that discrepancies and contradictions are not many in those documents. We must also remember what kind of excitment it was at the time to talk about UFOs and aliens, at least for those who were not dismissing the subject. It was the beginning of the "disclosure" era (I don't like that word, but lack better).

Originally posted by Kandinsky

Randle proved it a hoax by showing that Willingham was lying and hadn't been an officer at all. This meant that he was wasn't flying over Del Rio on any of the various dates/years he had said.

By extension, a Govt document wouldn't be detailing a crash that had never happened!

I'm not familiar with the specific detail around this particular story but just from your comments Willingham may well have been a liar but how on earth does that "prove" there was no crash ?

Just seems an illogical extension (from one of this sites most logical posters !).

reply to post by SpookyVince
reply to post by Kandinsky

Looks like this could be a good thread, even though it was a crap OP. Good posts.

I'll add a couple more thoughts. The documents are either hoaxed using real stationary (i.e. insider hoax) or they are altered real documents in my opinion.

If there is/was an organisation like MJ-12 (even if it had a different name) it would be a pretty normal deception/counter-intelligence tactic to release something resembling the truth but full of holes for obvious reasons. However, that doesn't mean that is what motivated the players here - they may have been told they were doing this for different reasons or told the documents were real....

Although the players may have considered or attempted to profit from the operation (possibly as part of the reward for "playing the game") that is not what motivated the people pulling the strings.

I'll leave it there for now. Fascinated so far guys, it's good to hear other researchers views....

reply to post by Pimander


Well the posts you guys are posting don't directly answer my question. I guess if you were to use you resource to give me an explanation of you reason why you do or do not think they exist then it's relevant. But I don't mind. Carry on as you were.