question on karma, free will, souls

Originally posted by cloudyday
At times I think that our individuality is nothing more than a useful abstraction created by our brains. Buddhism and Hinduism seem to have that view, but they also seem to believe in karma, free will with moral responsibility, reincarnation of an individual soul, etc. That seems to be a contradiction, but I don't know much about those beliefs.

Just wondering if somebody can explain how these ideas fit together.

While individuality is important on an (for want of a better word) individual level...the driving imperative is to uplift the whole. The part the individual plays in this is tied in with the individuals' relationship to the whole. Maya (illusion) is the 'venue' in which this plays out. Karma is nothing more than the balancing act of the individual soul or group soul or universe soul. FREE WILL is the mechanism by which individual and group responsibility is acted on, responsibility which has consequences at an individual level and a group level...the consequences of which affect either the individual or the group, or both, depending on the dynamics of the initial action of FREE WILL. Reincarnation is the opportunity to equalise (or not) this individual and group karma. There is no contradiction.

Akushla

Thanks, for all those replies. It's interesting how close these ideas match to my own ideas. I guess they are common sense. I have lots of questions, but I think I'll do some reading. I know it is probably easier to answer questions if everybody speaks the same language.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
reply to post by ALOSTSOUL

 

What if bankers are the ones who are exacting that karmic "punishment", as people seem to think of the whole thing, by proving that "a fool and his money are soon parted"? What if they are doing their job? You cannot see the big picture. Karma, in any case, doesn't happen the next minute or in the next year or decade or even lifetime. This is why the concept of karma is "wrong" according to those who really only have a glancing overview of it. It's actually a lot deeper and more pervasive than that.

Punishment for what?

ALS

reply to post by UnlimitedSky


So a child who is born to parents who seroiusly abuse him/her, is just paying for previous life mistakes. Sounds like an excuse to me.

ALS

It really looks like you are all really into snap judgment and not into understanding the concepts at all. There is no reward or punishment system. It's all about learning. You must be both perpetrator and victim from all angles. That's why Buddhists are always on a path. That's why there is no "crime" and no "punishment". The more enlightened you are, the more compassionate you can be because you have literally been there, done that. And not just once!

Please, do some fairly extensive reading on the subject before you comment on what is and what isn't. Learn to meditate. Take a journey or several hundred inside and see who you really are and where you've been before you cast aspersions. The less compassionate you are, the more you betray your inexperience in these realms.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Why do you even want to restrict yourself to teachings of any belief system? Start meditating and find out the real truth. Your truth. We can sit here and talk about dogma and orthodoxy and all the rest, but you will never know your truth until you go in search of it. Spoiler alert! It resides within you. lol

There is no such thing, really, as karma. There are energies. We are energies. We are energies that interact with and affect energies as we too are affected. This is what is really meant by karma. It's all about energies. There really is nothing else. The elegance is simply breathtaking.

Regarding meditation, are there any good web sites you recommend for instruction?

reply to post by cloudyday


I will make a very broad and generous recommendation for everyone on this planet: Please do not look outside yourself for instruction of any description. Do not ask others what is true or false. When you start on the path of discovery, you are seeking your Self. You will only delay this discovery when you first seek orthodox doctrine and dogma, practices, rituals, gurus, elaborate symbols, etc. Look at yourself.

When I started this "work" some years ago, I started with a simple course in Shaolin qigong. By the fourth lesson (they were weekly), I was having amazing experiences that I simply could not understand. I asked my sifu about them and he waved me away as though I were a lunatic. He had not experienced such things and still hasn't to this day, despite all of his years of formal training at a Shaolin monastery. He brushed me away because of his ego. I have had many, many experiences since then and they still continue every single day and all night every night. They are not as profound as back then, but that's what happens when it becomes common place.

I practice free form meditation. No guidance is needed. You only need to still your mind. That was what the qigong taught me. And that is the only single tool you need. I meditate while I drive or cook or clean or shop. I can meditate whenever and wherever. There is no need for props. They only give excuses when you can't do it. Something's just not right!, you will whine. But don't. Ask whatever thoughts keep entering to please wait until another time. Just send them away. Your first brief blink of silence will happen when you have finally got your foot in the door, so to speak. Just keep making it longer and longer. It doesn't take long.

When all of this made its way into my life, I was clobbered over the head by whoever it was that wanted me to begin my journey to Me, and despite working in a very high security environment, I got email from the Falun Dafa. I got them every few weeks. Our email addresses where not public knowledge and I certainly wasn't mooching around any sort of even vaguely related sites at work, I assure you. No one else there got them either - I asked around. In any case, for free lessons that are probably superior to anything you will ever pay for, you can download videos or watch them online at their site: Falun Dafa and from there you can choose your preferred language. There are practice sessions in many places around the globe. Email the contact person in your region if you're interested. They will tell you when and where. I have personally never been to one and I'm not in any way affiliated with them. I have done both Shaolin and Baguazhang qigong and I can say quite honestly that Falun Dafa feels every bit as good as the previously mentioned two. There are over 3000 different kinds of qigong. All utilize meditation and energy balancing, strengthening, and cultivation. Qigong is a very effective way to heal on many levels.

Meditation is simply being able to silence the mind. Let yourself explore from there. Experience your freedom.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
reply to post by cloudyday

 

I will make a very broad and generous recommendation for everyone on this planet: Please do not look outside yourself for instruction of any description. Do not ask others what is true or false. When you start on the path of discovery, you are seeking your Self. You will only delay this discovery when you first seek orthodox doctrine and dogma, practices, rituals, gurus, elaborate symbols, etc. Look at yourself.

When I started this "work" some years ago, I started with a simple course in Shaolin qigong. By the fourth lesson (they were weekly), I was having amazing experiences that I simply could not understand. I asked my sifu about them and he waved me away as though I were a lunatic. He had not experienced such things and still hasn't to this day, despite all of his years of formal training at a Shaolin monastery. He brushed me away because of his ego. I have had many, many experiences since then and they still continue every single day and all night every night. They are not as profound as back then, but that's what happens when it becomes common place.

I practice free form meditation. No guidance is needed. You only need to still your mind. That was what the qigong taught me. And that is the only single tool you need. I meditate while I drive or cook or clean or shop. I can meditate whenever and wherever. There is no need for props. They only give excuses when you can't do it. Something's just not right!, you will whine. But don't. Ask whatever thoughts keep entering to please wait until another time. Just send them away. Your first brief blink of silence will happen when you have finally got your foot in the door, so to speak. Just keep making it longer and longer. It doesn't take long.

When all of this made its way into my life, I was clobbered over the head by whoever it was that wanted me to begin my journey to Me, and despite working in a very high security environment, I got email from the Falun Dafa. I got them every few weeks. Our email addresses where not public knowledge and I certainly wasn't mooching around any sort of even vaguely related sites at work, I assure you. No one else there got them either - I asked around. In any case, for free lessons that are probably superior to anything you will ever pay for, you can download videos or watch them online at their site: Falun Dafa and from there you can choose your preferred language. There are practice sessions in many places around the globe. Email the contact person in your region if you're interested. They will tell you when and where. I have personally never been to one and I'm not in any way affiliated with them. I have done both Shaolin and Baguazhang qigong and I can say quite honestly that Falun Dafa feels every bit as good as the previously mentioned two. There are over 3000 different kinds of qigong. All utilize meditation and energy balancing, strengthening, and cultivation. Qigong is a very effective way to heal on many levels.

Meditation is simply being able to silence the mind. Let yourself explore from there. Experience your freedom.

Thanks, this is a tricky thing for me, because of fear. I suppose that when you meditate you lose yourself to find your real self? I have certain likes and values (furry animals, family, etc.) and that's how I define who I am. In meditation I think you need to release all those human attachments and recognize they aren't important? Whenever I think about it, I feel a bit sick. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not.

reply to post by cloudyday


It does make perfect sense, but it's also precisely what imprisons you. It doesn't mean you will no longer love those things - quite the contrary! You will love them even more, if you can imagine it. Your love will be purer though, because you are not those things. Your fixation on them makes your relationship to them strained and oppressive, whether you see it that way or not. You can have a lot of pathological things going on in your life and you will never know it until you can achieve that "distance" (which it is not by perception but is in reality) and ease within yourself. These things are not readily nor easily understood by Westerners because we have such distorted views of the relationships in our lives, and this stems from our perverted view of the Self. Until you are whole with yourself and can love yourself completely - flaws, quirks and all - you cannot love others wholly and properly. Does that make sense?

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
reply to post by cloudyday

 

It does make perfect sense, but it's also precisely what imprisons you. It doesn't mean you will no longer love those things - quite the contrary! You will love them even more, if you can imagine it. Your love will be purer though, because you are not those things. Your fixation on them makes your relationship to them strained and oppressive, whether you see it that way or not. You can have a lot of pathological things going on in your life and you will never know it until you can achieve that "distance" (which it is not by perception but is in reality) and ease within yourself. These things are not readily nor easily understood by Westerners because we have such distorted views of the relationships in our lives, and this stems from our perverted view of the Self. Until you are whole with yourself and can love yourself completely - flaws, quirks and all - you cannot love others wholly and properly. Does that make sense?

That makes sense.

I think I may have meditated once by accident. Sometimes when I am extremely depressed I will lay on my back or slump over and shut my eyes until I almost fall asleep but not quite. My mind just wanders and dreams randomly. Whenever I stop I always feel startled, because I briefly can't remember where I am. But one time I couldn't even remember who I was or what I was or what Earth was. I was dreaming I was a better person on some alien world walking in all this sunshine. When I remembered that I wasn't that person it was disappointing. (Actually it was more like I was disembodied and I happened to visit the body of a really good person somewhere other than Earth. He knew I was there and didn't mind.)

I know meditation is supposed to be blank, so maybe that wasn't meditation.

reply to post by cloudyday


I will argue here that you are that person you were in that meditation/dream. You were there. You may still be there. You are not at all what you think you are. Something to bear in mind at all times is that things are not what they seem to be. They are not.

One thing I will ask of you is to suspend any preconceptions you have about what meditation should be. It is what it is every single time. There is no definition. Please allow yourself to explore your Self.

When I first started out, I wondered about what I should do when I meditate. I thought things had to be silent and I might have to face a certain direction or maybe sit in a particular position or I would "do it wrong". Well, the only thing you can do wrong is to hold onto your ego for dear life. Every bit you let go is doing it right. The less ego, the more right you're going. When you feel like this, you're most definitely doing it right. Another good read to help you gain this sense of freedom to be yourself and not who you think you should be (thereby also shackling those you believe define you) can be found here. I'm not saying that either of these articles give anything for you to be aiming toward, but I hope they will allow you to give yourself some room to move, emotionally and psychically. Let me reiterate that you are not at all who you think you are.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
reply to post by cloudyday

 

I will argue here that you are that person you were in that meditation/dream. You were there. You may still be there. You are not at all what you think you are. Something to bear in mind at all times is that things are not what they seem to be. They are not.

One thing I will ask of you is to suspend any preconceptions you have about what meditation should be. It is what it is every single time. There is no definition. Please allow yourself to explore your Self.

When I first started out, I wondered about what I should do when I meditate. I thought things had to be silent and I might have to face a certain direction or maybe sit in a particular position or I would "do it wrong". Well, the only thing you can do wrong is to hold onto your ego for dear life. Every bit you let go is doing it right. The less ego, the more right you're going. When you feel like this, you're most definitely doing it right. Another good read to help you gain this sense of freedom to be yourself and not who you think you should be (thereby also shackling those you believe define you) can be found here. I'm not saying that either of these articles give anything for you to be aiming toward, but I hope they will allow you to give yourself some room to move, emotionally and psychically. Let me reiterate that you are not at all who you think you are.

Thanks. I guess I will experiment and see if anything works for me. It's good to know there isn't any particular way that it needs to be done.

Originally posted by ALOSTSOUL
reply to post by UnlimitedSky

 

So a child who is born to parents who seroiusly abuse him/her, is just paying for previous life mistakes. Sounds like an excuse to me.

ALS

Please, Lost Soul, read my entire reply? I open up.

As far as I know, intent playes an important part in the creating of karma, and remorse and regret plays a very strong role in the desolution of karma. A mistake is normally something that we have done incorrectly, but mostly without the intent to hurt someone, and often with deep regret. A mistake is not held at the same level as evil intended actions.

Your statement is a very sensitive one. It would be very sad if anyone's feelings are hurt through misunderstanding. We should NEVER hurt anybody.

If a child is badly abused by parents and this is done in absolute secret, and the child has no way of getting help for some time, the very hard but real truth is that it most probably is something that the child is paying off from a previous life. But all karma comes to an end, and events will happen in such a way that the minute the karma is paid off, the child will be reliefed from the situation. It seems like a cruel world, but it is not. Life is actually fair.

I was abused very badly by one of my parents, who even tried to throw me away as an infant of 2. I have 2 siblings of the opposite sex who are loved dearly, almost obsessivly, and at the other end of the scale. I have NO contact with ANY family, and have not had any for over 20 years. I have a loving husband and a daughter. That is all.

I can assure you, I have suffered for many many years, and have been very deeply wounded by this person, whom I now view as a person, because there has been no effort from that parent's side to heal anything, even after I came to terms with what happened to MY LIFE, MY ENTIRE WAY OF BEING, the broken pieces that can never be put together, because of this person. Even after I started accepting responsibility (due to past life action, because God knows, it is the only thing that makes sense to this madness.) Even though I contacted this person to tell this person that he/she is forgiven, there was perhaps only fear of me, for what was done to me, so I just let it go.

Now, there is just a blank where this parent should have been. It never really stops hurting though. Not completely.

And one dearly loved parent that died 23 years ago. I am 43.

It has brought me great relief to finally understand that I was born into that situation due to karma from a previous life.
Even mentallly understanding this, did not bring relief. I had to go through a very very long process that took me at least 25 years to be able to apply in reality, to my reality, and accept responsibility for all my lives. A child is innocent. But I do not know what I did as an adult in a previous life. For many years, the 2 lines that ALWAYS appeared in my diaries were:
I must have done something extremely bad in my previous life to have had to go through this.
And the other line said: Why? Why? Why? Why? ...... I had scrap books full of beautifully caligraphy style 'Why?', thousands and thousands of times. Hours and hours of not understanding, wanting to know, wanting to have a view into ME, to find why this was all happening to me.

Of course, I know now that it should have been: why? and then: because I have done something extremely bad to this person in a previous life. It is the only thing that brings acceptance, sense, and relief.

BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT OK to hurt anyone! We do not understand our previous lives, and are unaware of what we have done to create good and bad karma. That is why it is always best to live your life, and make choices as if though you are only creating karma. You cannot say, well I poked that guy's eye out because he probably poked mine out in a previous life. Rather don't poke his eye out, as if though it will be making karma.

Originally posted by ALOSTSOUL
I don't believe in Karma as an actual force, like gravity but I do see it as an psycho/social-logical effect.

Lets take the bankers for example, for too long they were playing around with peoples lives and futures. They have been borderline criminal! And as a Karmic consequence they (bankers) were all strung up from the lamp-post.....wait that hasn't happened yet has it?

What I am saying is if Karma is real, then it isn't doing a very good job. I have known bad things to happen to good people and good things happen to the bad.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be good. It feels good to be good.

ALS

edit on 19-12-2011 by ALOSTSOUL because: (no reason given)

That's because the force of karma does not play out until the next life. Also, regardless how "evil" of a person you have been, if at the moment of your death you have earned good karma, your next life would suffer less of your negative karma from the past. I don't believe all karmatic forces play out in one's current life time. For all we know, the bad bankers are still living out the effect of their past life karma. In this case, their past life have accumulated enough good karma to offset their greed and negligence in the present. In Buddhism, the will or the intent of your action determines your karma. In Hinduism, the will plays no role at all.

reply to post by MischeviousElf

As you are exploring this is strongly suggest Alan Watts and all his work, it is huge and Audio is much better than written where his style can be too intellectual.

I've been studying his philosophies for a few years now and I would like to second this strong recommendation. He explained things brilliantly and had very rational ideas based on science. IMO his philosophies lead to a very happy and realistic outlook on life.

Originally posted by DrinkYourDrug
reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

As you are exploring this is strongly suggest Alan Watts and all his work, it is huge and Audio is much better than written where his style can be too intellectual.

I've been studying his philosophies for a few years now and I would like to second this strong recommendation. He explained things brilliantly and had very rational ideas based on science. IMO his philosophies lead to a very happy and realistic outlook on life.

I watched the videos from Alan Watts and they were very helpful.

reply to post by mileslong54


I am not saying you are right or wrong, but it is a balanced answer. which could be right or wrong depending on the point of view....

If karma exist or not, is not a secret. But what is a secret is: You attract things the way you think and feel. LIke the comments above, they say, if you hang out with negative people, their influance might affect you and you might become negative. That is true because you accept their negativity into your life. hang out with positive people, you'll probably turn out to be positive.

But seriously... being negative or positive is the same thing.. just a different degree... like hot and cold, same thing, different degree. What really matters here is the middle (the balance) of the negative and the positive. Being to much positive or too much negative is not good... The balance between the 2 is the key for everything