Your right to 'Bear Arms'

reply to post by seabhac-rua


When Minnesota passed conceal carry 5 yeas ago the people against it said it would be the wild west all over again.

In reality only one person with a legal permit has commited a violent crime with their gun, and since he was drunk he technically wasn't carrying legally, states right on the permit void if under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Crime rates have been dropping steadily since CCW passed, even road rage has gone way down.

An armed populace is a polite populace.

You should never worry about the guy who wants to legally carry a gun. I carry for a single reason, I want to be an active participant in my own survival.

Originally posted by Submarines
The second ammendment:

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:


A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Everyone seems to leave out the first part.A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,,

This part states the reason that we were given the right to bear arms. IMO, there has been far too much interpretation to the 2nd ammendment. Independent interpretation has taken a simple sentence and created a monster. I think if the Founding Fathers new that we would have small weapons that can cause mass destruction, this ammendment would have been written differently. On the other hand, maybe the Founding Fathers gave us way too much credit, and figured that we would be smart enough to read the entire ammendment as it was written.

In my copy of the constitution it says "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

notice the comma at the end of Militia.

This changes everything the 2nd Amendment stands for. I like how people forget to add the comma

reply to post by AGWskeptic

Well, if somebody is rude to me I'll be rude right back to em, and I don't have to worry about getting shot, I'd rather sort my grievances without firearms, and boy am I glad that some of the head-cases here can't get their hands on guns. I'm not criticizing the US, I don't live there, never will either.

"An armed populace is a polite populace"....catchy, but I find that statement chilling to be honest, like "be nice to me, be politically correct, do not offend me, for if you upset me I will take out my gun and defend myself!!!!!

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by SM2

 

I'm not American. No guns allowed where I'm from. Sometimes I wish I could carry a gun for personal defense, but I always remind myself that if guns were legal here our social problems would just go from bad to absolute hell. Our regular police don't carry firearms either, thank god, those assholes would shoot first and ask questions later, I'm a lot happier knowing that some cop isn't gonna kill me or any of my family or friends because of some stupid mistake, the worse they can do is beat you.

Your point is a good one, and you seem like a responsible person, but what about all those people who are not level headed and responsible. I have friends and relatives in the US, they always say things like "people will shoot you here for the slightest reason".
My sister and parents went to Florida to visit some family friends, they went to the wrong house by mistake, the next door neighbors of their friends, it was dark, they knocked on the door and the man who lived there almost shot my sister with a shotgun because he wasn't 'expecting' anyone, he told them how lucky they were that he didn't kill them. When I heard this I nearly dropped dead from the fright.
I'm by no means anti-American, and it's none of my business whether you guys carry guns or not, but I would definitely be uncomfortable knowing that somebody could 'light up'' me or my family if I was visiting there. That kind of thing would never happen where I am now.

edit on 19-12-2011 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

First you have to understand, a lot of things like this are exaggerated. Not everyone can own a gun, there are some restrictions to it. like for example, in my state, and mine is considered a very lax state when it comes to guns...if you have been convicted of a felony, misdemeanor drug possession, any domestic violence, if you have been admitted to any mental health facility in the past 5 years, if you are not a united states citizen you do not get to own a firearm. The people that go around saying people will shoot you for the slightest reasons are plain and simple... lying . The actual gun violence in the US is not as high as people make it out to be, and the gun crimes committed by actual licensed gun owners is miniscule. There are thousands more cases of a licensed gun owner stopping a violent crime with a gun, then the sum of all gun related crimes. The lunatic you described in the scenario, well, there is always a nut job, if he didnt have a gun he would have come to the door with a baseball bat or a knife, which can be equally intimidating and equally as deadly.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by 46ACE

 

I don'texpecto change anything but:

"but what is the only other option absolutely no means of self determination?"

Sorry, but pardon?

(Sorry a mising semi -colon and a couple of quotation marks. Should have read):

"but what is the only other option ; "absolutely NO means of self determination"?"

YOu see There are but; two conditions here : "armed" and "unarmed". You said: "armed" is "pointless" (rifles vs tanks)...
I asked: what's the alternative Mr. "Freeborn"? Obviously "unarmed": which means (teeth and fingernails vs tanks)

How exactly are fingernails the superior option; Mr. "Freeborn?"

Originally posted by Freeborn

If every German Jew had a bolt action rifle and a couple of boxes of cartridges: the SS would've run out of henchmen well before the tanks came rolling in:. they would not have attempted the round ups in the first place.


What makes you say that?
You may be correct but what supportive evidence is there to suggest that that statement is true?

Of course not; the Jews may not have resisted because they didn't actually believe their own govt. would do such a thing and all repressive measures would be"temporary".

Unlike "death" which is a rather permanent condition ;and I am not willing to make the same error (I.E.The assumption "it can't happen here or they would never do that").

Originally posted by Freeborn
And comparing 1936 Germany to 2011 USA is really pretty silly.

If you say so: "proof"? Freedom activist and author Naomi Wolfe would argue otherwise
Naw forget it.
"if you say so"....

Originally posted by Freeborn
The difference in technology between armed civilians and the military is far, far greater now than it was then.

A rifle bullet in the face is still a "deterrent". We may not last long but we MUST be a consideration(must be dealt with).

Originally posted by Freeborn

No I can't knock out a tank with a hunting rifle:BUT "A rifle behind every blade of grass" IS an awesome deterrent in and of itself. Ask the Japanese.

It wasn't the prospect of fighting armed civilians that prevented Japan from invading the USA,

Thats' part of a well known quote from a Japanese admiral.
Argue tactics with them. History proves they bombed pearl instead of assaulting the mainland.

Originally posted by Freeborn
it may have been a minor contributory factor but the shear logistics involved in mounting a conventional military invasion against the USA dictates the unlikelihood of it ever happening.
It was the reason the UK couldn't strike at the USA with all it's force back in the day and why no-one will ever be able to seriously contemplate doing it in the foreseeable future.

As do "Smarmy euro socialists"

I am English and I am British; I am NOT European and I dislike being pigeon holed as anything..... but a 'Smarmy euro socialist' is so wide of the mark it's laughable but that helps vindicate the stereotypical image of the unreasoned, leftist hating sociopath Yank that so many non-Americans have of you and your countrymen.

Sorry I neglected to check your passport at the door..."leftist hating" no doubt;
"Sociopathic" not so much: Tilt away

coming in here decrying our "violence problems"

Where exactly did I do that?
Please quote me.[?quote]
I'll grant you that one; I wrongly grouped you in to the usual bunch of EU folks complaining about our inconceivable"lack of gun control"

Originally posted by Freeborn

like you have some inherent adult/child responsibility to protect us from ourselves!

Do as you see fit, I think I made that perfectly clear from the outset.

We seek neither your counsel nor your permission ;Sir.

Oh, but deep down you Americans so much DO want us to acknowledge and respect you.

Yes: Why do Go on; tell me what 310 million individuals "want deep-down " from Britain ( you flatter yourself "Sir.").
I don't personally give a rats fuzzy rear.I stand behind my the following statement:

"We, seek neither your counsel nor permission." (fixed it for you;now its a direct quote)

Good day and may your chains of subjugation weigh lightly upon your shoulders

Which are exactly the same chains that subjugate you my friend.

Originally posted by Freeborn
whatever bra'

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edit on 19-12-2011 by 46ACE because: spelling

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by AGWskeptic

 

Well, if somebody is rude to me I'll be rude right back to em, and I don't have to worry about getting shot, I'd rather sort my grievances without firearms, and boy am I glad that some of the head-cases here can't get their hands on guns. I'm not criticizing the US, I don't live there, never will either.

"An armed populace is a polite populace"....catchy, but I find that statement chilling to be honest, like "be nice to me, be politically correct, do not offend me, for if you upset me I will take out my gun and defend myself!!!!!

edit on 19-12-2011 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

See, if you did that, you would go straight to jail. You do not get to use a gun because you were offended. In most states, not all mind you, there is this thing called the castle doctrine. To simplify it and cut through all the legal mumbo jumbo, it basically says that....

If you are in a place where you are legally allowed to be, you have the right to the use of deadly force to protect yourself, your property and the safe being and property of other third persons as long as there is a threat of serious bodily injury or death. You must be able to plainly articulate this threat, and it must meet the reasonable person standard. If it meets those requirements, then it is justifiable and you are now immune from criminal and civil prosecution.

Now, this does not equate to you are afraid that you may get your butt kicked so you shot the guy in the face, that does not cut it. However, if 2-4 guys are standing there with pipes, bats, chains etc and demand that you give them your wallet, and they make a threatening movement, then, well you have the right to use deadly force. You also have the right to use deadly force to prevent a force able felony, such as breaking and entering, burglary, rape, attempted murder, murder, etc, as long as it is in defense of your yourself, your property or in the defense of a third persons life or property.

So, to go about and characterize it as we can just shoot someone for not being politically correct, is pretty much asinine and borderline offensive.

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by AGWskeptic

 

Well, if somebody is rude to me I'll be rude right back to em, and I don't have to worry about getting shot, I'd rather sort my grievances without firearms, and boy am I glad that some of the head-cases here can't get their hands on guns. I'm not criticizing the US, I don't live there, never will either.

"An armed populace is a polite populace"....catchy, but I find that statement chilling to be honest, like "be nice to me, be politically correct, do not offend me, for if you upset me I will take out my gun and defend myself!!!!!

edit on 19-12-2011 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

Yep, because we all run out to the street to duel at High Noon, when there are differences.

Stay out of the US. Please.

reply to post by SM2


Thanks for the explanation.
I have to tell you, I have an American friend who's into bikes. He hangs around in a biker gang, they're a fairly civilized bunch, not like Hells' Angels or any of those crazies. He told me about the parties these guys have, one guy gets his name pulled out of a hat, he has to stay sober for the whole night. When people arrive he(sober guy) sits at the door and takes their bike keys and their guns before they enter, he puts them all in a bag and hides/guards it. Under no circumstances does he reveal the location of the bag to any of the guests, why? A: they'll try to drive home drunk and crash their big expensive bikes, and B: they don't bother fighting each other the old fashioned way, they would rather just shoot each other. He told me that he was the sober guy one time and two guys who were having a dispute where going nuts trying to find their guns, they were screaming at him and throwing him around the place, but he never told, he got a black eye for his trouble.

reply to post by macman

Nah, I'll visit thanks very much. I'm pretty unique amongst my country men, I like America.

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by macman

 

Nah, I'll visit thanks very much. I'm pretty unique amongst my country men, I like America.

Sure do hope you don't offend anyone, cause we sure a trigger happy and all.


Seriously, is that what people outside the US get from our 2nd Amendment right?
That we just draw guns at any drop of the hat?

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by AGWskeptic

 

Well, if somebody is rude to me I'll be rude right back to em, and I don't have to worry about getting shot, I'd rather sort my grievances without firearms, and boy am I glad that some of the head-cases here can't get their hands on guns. I'm not criticizing the US, I don't live there, never will either.

"An armed populace is a polite populace"....catchy, but I find that statement chilling to be honest, like "be nice to me, be politically correct, do not offend me, for if you upset me I will take out my gun and defend myself!!!!!

edit on 19-12-2011 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

Yep, because we all run out to the street to duel at High Noon, when there are differences.

Stay out of the US. Please.

"buckaroo"?

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by macman

 

Nah, I'll visit thanks very much. I'm pretty unique amongst my country men, I like America.

Sure do hope you don't offend anyone, cause we sure a trigger happy and all.


Seriously, is that what people outside the US get from our 2nd Amendment right?
That we just draw guns at any drop of the hat?

To be honest, yeah it is exaggerated, like that biker story I just posted. People like that stuff, and hey then we have the movies.
I don't think most people believe that America is the land of the trigger happy, it's just that when I look around me and try to imagine guns being more readily available here, it's a scary thought.

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by SM2

 

Thanks for the explanation.
I have to tell you, I have an American friend who's into bikes. He hangs around in a biker gang, they're a fairly civilized bunch, not like Hells' Angels or any of those crazies. He told me about the parties these guys have, one guy gets his name pulled out of a hat, he has to stay sober for the whole night. When people arrive he(sober guy) sits at the door and takes their bike keys and their guns before they enter, he puts them all in a bag and hides/guards it. Under no circumstances does he reveal the location of the bag to any of the guests, why? A: they'll try to drive home drunk and crash their big expensive bikes, and B: they don't bother fighting each other the old fashioned way, they would rather just shoot each other. He told me that he was the sober guy one time and two guys who were having a dispute where going nuts trying to find their guns, they were screaming at him and throwing him around the place, but he never told, he got a black eye for his trouble.

They don't sound "fairly civilized" to me.

In fact they sound like animals.

reply to post by seabhac-rua


to be honest, you hardly ever see a gun in public, except on cops (and IRS agents, and school board officials etc ) you never know they are there. The majority of the licensed owners carry concealed when they carry. I occasionally carry openly, but I live in an rural area where it is fairly common. sorry but angry alligators and rattlesnakes do not respond well to threats of calls to the police.

reply to post by 46ACE


Look mate,
I really can't be arsed with this tit for tat ping pong we are playing.

I've had this arguement so many times over the years that I really do know there is very little mileage in it.

I really don't know why you got so stroppy in the first place.

I understand and appreciate your right to bear arms.
And it's your right to stand up for it.
But it's not right for everyone and we in the UK do not want any relaxation of our gun laws.
And just as you resent non-Americans moralising to you, we resent Americans posting on UK and European issues and stating that all of our faults are due to our lack of right to bear arms.

For all the similarities between our societies and cultures there are also some massive differences.

And for the record I'm no US hating, bashing pinko liberal.....neither am I an Uncle Sam loving kiss arse Conservative.....I simply try to call things as I see them.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by SM2

 

Thanks for the explanation.
I have to tell you, I have an American friend who's into bikes. He hangs around in a biker gang, they're a fairly civilized bunch, not like Hells' Angels or any of those crazies. He told me about the parties these guys have, one guy gets his name pulled out of a hat, he has to stay sober for the whole night. When people arrive he(sober guy) sits at the door and takes their bike keys and their guns before they enter, he puts them all in a bag and hides/guards it. Under no circumstances does he reveal the location of the bag to any of the guests, why? A: they'll try to drive home drunk and crash their big expensive bikes, and B: they don't bother fighting each other the old fashioned way, they would rather just shoot each other. He told me that he was the sober guy one time and two guys who were having a dispute where going nuts trying to find their guns, they were screaming at him and throwing him around the place, but he never told, he got a black eye for his trouble.

They don't sound "fairly civilized" to me.

In fact they sound like animals.

Dude we have biker gangs here that make these guys look like a bunch of over 60 weekend warriors. And if they had guns(some do) they'd be a force to be reckoned with, no messin.

Originally posted by SM2
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

to be honest, you hardly ever see a gun in public, except on cops (and IRS agents, and school board officials etc ) you never know they are there. The majority of the licensed owners carry concealed when they carry. I occasionally carry openly, but I live in an rural area where it is fairly common. sorry but angry alligators and rattlesnakes do not respond well to threats of calls to the police.

My clothing is all based on concealing my Kimber, I don't want to advertise it.

As the old saying goes, I'd rather carry it for 40 years and never need it, than need it one time and not have it.

I put my holster on like most people put on a watch, it's automatic.

Originally posted by seabhac-rua

Originally posted by AGWskeptic

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by SM2

 

Thanks for the explanation.
I have to tell you, I have an American friend who's into bikes. He hangs around in a biker gang, they're a fairly civilized bunch, not like Hells' Angels or any of those crazies. He told me about the parties these guys have, one guy gets his name pulled out of a hat, he has to stay sober for the whole night. When people arrive he(sober guy) sits at the door and takes their bike keys and their guns before they enter, he puts them all in a bag and hides/guards it. Under no circumstances does he reveal the location of the bag to any of the guests, why? A: they'll try to drive home drunk and crash their big expensive bikes, and B: they don't bother fighting each other the old fashioned way, they would rather just shoot each other. He told me that he was the sober guy one time and two guys who were having a dispute where going nuts trying to find their guns, they were screaming at him and throwing him around the place, but he never told, he got a black eye for his trouble.

They don't sound "fairly civilized" to me.

In fact they sound like animals.

Dude we have biker gangs here that make these guys look like a bunch of over 60 weekend warriors. And if they had guns(some do) they'd be a force to be reckoned with, no messin.

Somalia?

Uganda?

The Midlands?

Where is "here"? As I will gladly avoid going there.

I have biker friends, 2 work for me, but I've never heard of them trying to find guns so they could shoot each other.

we have our share of them here as well, they are called 1% clubs. The 1% is the term given to them ion the 50's as they were the 1% of the motorcycle enthusiast crowd that could be considered outlaws. Now, the major players in that scene have been pretty much the same for decades, the Hells Angels, Outlaws, Pagans, Mongrels, a few others as well. These guys are all multi national. Having grown up on the fringes of that element of the motorcycle community and still do to a degree,dewll in it, its not all violence and thuggery. However, stupid people are stupid people and they are not confined into any one group or po0litical sub division of any given population.,

reply to post by AGWskeptic


Hahahah, I'm not telling.

That brings another question to mind, if you are a US citizen who has a license to, and does regularly, carry a firearm, like yourself, how do you feel when you come and visit a country where guns are illegal??