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Christianity, is it child emotional abuse?

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posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by LunaKat

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by LunaKat
In the Catholic church parents were taught "spare the rod and spoil the child." So it was ok to beat your kids with a belt or shove soap in their mouths and any number of disciplinary actions. When I was going to Catholic grammar school my best friend was a very shy, quite girl. She never acted out or anything. One day the nun called on her and she didn't know the answer to the question. So the nun had her hold out her hands and beat her wrists with a ruler in front of the whole class.

Ultimately no its not Christianity that actually is child abuse. Its the people who commit it. But Christianity encouraged parents and nuns to cross that line too easily.

This was back in 60's and I don't think they can get away with it anymore. I don't really know. I left 30 years ago.


My experience with teaching children is that the kids who's parents practice corporal punishment are far better behaved and less of a burden to me than the kids who's parents coddle them with timeouts. The years change, new kids come into class, yet it's the same thing, the kids who's parents don't believe in spanking that I'm always dreading having to work with.

Growing up when I was a child, fear of dad blistering my behind for acting up was a fantastic motivator for me to behave as I was expected to.


Its also the reason for kids having to go into foster homes because of abuse of that.


Yes, but why is it if the abuse is done in the name of religion many will view it as OK?




posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by vogon42
 



BUT I do not see how a NUN beating a child in front of an entire class is religion?


I didn't say it was.


The other member quoted the "spare the rod, spoil the child" old saying and I was trying to share my experiences with different children who all had parents with different views/ideas on punishment. Or to put it another way, the children who's parents spared the rod are generally the monsters of the class.



Oh boy... I suspect a lack of teaching skills here. If you can't control a class and blame on kids not being beaten at home...you need some more work on your teaching skills.

I speak from personal first hand experience with foster homes. Do not ask me how I know...just trust that I do. And the chain of events that led to it started with the "permission" society and religion gives to abusive parents. Thats all I'm saying.
edit on 28-12-2011 by LunaKat because: typo



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by LunaKat

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by LunaKat
In the Catholic church parents were taught "spare the rod and spoil the child." So it was ok to beat your kids with a belt or shove soap in their mouths and any number of disciplinary actions. When I was going to Catholic grammar school my best friend was a very shy, quite girl. She never acted out or anything. One day the nun called on her and she didn't know the answer to the question. So the nun had her hold out her hands and beat her wrists with a ruler in front of the whole class.

Ultimately no its not Christianity that actually is child abuse. Its the people who commit it. But Christianity encouraged parents and nuns to cross that line too easily.

This was back in 60's and I don't think they can get away with it anymore. I don't really know. I left 30 years ago.


My experience with teaching children is that the kids who's parents practice corporal punishment are far better behaved and less of a burden to me than the kids who's parents coddle them with timeouts. The years change, new kids come into class, yet it's the same thing, the kids who's parents don't believe in spanking that I'm always dreading having to work with.

Growing up when I was a child, fear of dad blistering my behind for acting up was a fantastic motivator for me to behave as I was expected to.


Its also the reason for kids having to go into foster homes because of abuse of that.


Yes, but why is it if the abuse is done in the name of religion many will view it as OK?


Good question. I don't have an answer.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by LunaKat

Oh boy... I suspect a lack of teaching skills here. If you can't control a class and blame on kids not being beaten at home...you need some more work on your teaching skills.

I speak from personal first hand experience with foster homes. Do not ask me how I know...just trust that I do. And the chain of events that led to it started with the "permission" society and religion gives to abusive parents. Thats all I'm saying.
edit on 28-12-2011 by LunaKat because: typo


Thank you for your insight.
I'm sure you see the results of physical abuse, but do you often see the emotional abuse done in the name of religion?



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:01 AM
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reply to post by LunaKat
 



Oh boy... I suspect a lack of teaching skills here.


I agree, I'm not a teacher, I only do it to serve others in the church. I'm not a professional and never claimed to be. I volunteer my services. But on the other hand, I'm just as inadequate as a teacher to the children who are well bahaved as I am to the little monsters in the class.

So apparently, I can teach the children who's parents practice corporal punishment, but I cannot teach the children who's parents spare the rod??





edit on 28-12-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by LunaKat

Oh boy... I suspect a lack of teaching skills here. If you can't control a class and blame on kids not being beaten at home...you need some more work on your teaching skills.

I speak from personal first hand experience with foster homes. Do not ask me how I know...just trust that I do. And the chain of events that led to it started with the "permission" society and religion gives to abusive parents. Thats all I'm saying.
edit on 28-12-2011 by LunaKat because: typo


Thank you for your insight.
I'm sure you see the results of physical abuse, but do you often see the emotional abuse done in the name of religion?


I'm not in Christianity anymore. I'm Neo-Pagan but when I was brought up Christian there was such a fear of nuns and parents that for the most part you just were really careful not to step out of line. We were controlled a lot by fear in various forms. We had the Dominican nuns so if you know Catholic..you know what I'm talking about.

To me, personally, instilling fear is emotionally abusive. Its been done by pretty much any group that is trying to control people. Hitler used a lot of fear and thats one extreme of fear. At the other end the police use intimidation or fear to keep society in line. Thats probably the other end. The church uses it a lot. You don't question things. Its considered sinful. And if you make a mistake..well you know how that goes. You're going to hell or the nun hits you with a ruler or lot of things.

If we go back to the Inquisition it was all emotional and physical abuse. A neighbor only had to make a charge against you for you to be tortured or killed. You got a crazy neighbor? Well sorry. Thats how it was, there was no defending yourself. So the roots of this fear and intimidation by the Church goes way back. It goes back even further than that.

Doesn't give people much of a choice.


You can even see it here on ATS. How many times you see someone tell another they are going to hell. Or try to coerce them into joining their faith. We somehow as a society tend to respect peoples property more than we do their right to their own religious decisions.
edit on 28-12-2011 by LunaKat because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:06 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by LunaKat
 



Oh boy... I suspect a lack of teaching skills here.


I agree, I'm not a teacher, I only do it to serve others in the church. I'm not a professional and never claimed to be. I volunteer my services. But on the other hand, I'm just as inadequate as a teacher to the children who are well bahaved as I am to the little monsters in the class.

So apparently, I can teach the children who's parents practice corporal punishment, but I cannot teach the children who's parents spare the rod??





edit on 28-12-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


Of course they are going to do goofy stuff. They are children - its part of their job description.


While most of my teaching experience is limited to the military I can at least say.
Perhaps you could find a way to make the subject matter a bit more interesting.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by vogon42
 



Of course they are going to do goofy stuff. They are children - its part of their job description.

While most of my teaching experience is limited to the military I can at least say.
Perhaps you could find a way to make the subject matter a bit more interesting.


They are pre-K. Usually 4 years old at the time class begins enrollment. The "lesson" is about 10 minutes out of the 2 - 2 1/2 I have the children. During "story time" they are well behaved usually. It's the other times in the class, mostly play time, where the problems arise.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:27 AM
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OK, this is not about child emotional abuse, but does backup the idea that bad things done in the name of religion are accepted since its religion

FTA

"No one was arrested because all those involved were men of God," he said.


Rather humorous video as well......these are "men of the cloth"

www.bbc.co.uk...



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by LunaKat
 





You can even see it here on ATS. How many times you see someone tell another they are going to hell. Or try to coerce them into joining their faith. We somehow as a society tend to respect peoples property more than we do their right to their own religious decisions.


I think everyone has a right to their own religious decisions.. but I see on ATS alot of ridicule for Christians.. ALOT!!

The are told they believe in fairy tales.. every single wrong doing of Christians is put out there on display ..as if to imply this is what their religion leads to.

That is not giving respect for someones beliefs..is it to you?

There have been a lot of atrocities done to others by people who said they were children of God.. and I don't believe in any way that God thinks these actions are ok.

You seem to like to paint the catholic church with the guilt of abusing children..and yes..there is no doubt they did.. but so did public schools use corporal punishment at one time...and maybe some are still allowed to do so.

It is not allowed in either school boards here.. now..so we have come a long way.

We need to understand that the sins of those who practice a religion ..is not the will of God.. but He has been very patient , always hoping for true repentance and sincere willingness to follow in His ways.

I believe Jesus can be found in the sacraments of the Catholic church... just like Jesus was in the Jewish religion to continue the teachings of His father. There were some bad sinners then ..and they still exist today.. in many religions.

I understand the complaints.. because I was there not too long ago... but to those who wish respect for their beliefs..they need to willing to respect the beliefs of others as well.

I think the most hurtful aspect for Christians is when someone with "different" beliefs comes along and tries to rewrite what Christianity is based on.. and say stuff like Jesus was a Buddhist , and just one God of many..etc etc.

They try and twist the sacredness out of our beliefs.. and call us fools for not being open minded.

I try to respect what others believe..but sometimes it is difficult when you see what you hold dear to your heart..and consider to be sacred.. ripped into shreds...by those who profess to have higher understanding.. and greater love.


I'm not trying to sway anyone to my beliefs.. but it would be nice to be able to write about them without the ridicule and condemnation....and others trying to tell me how wrong I am.
edit on 28-12-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by gabby2011
Christians.. ALOT!!

..............
You seem to like to paint the catholic church with the guilt of abusing children..and yes..there is no doubt they did.. but so did public schools use corporal punishment at one time...and maybe some are still allowed to do so.
...

Uh, thats because this thread is about the child abuse in christanity, not in public schools.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 11:15 AM
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[This might get long ...

Gabby there is ridicule on ATS for all the religions. But if you took away posts where one Christian was bashing another Christian because they were different denominations, or used a different Bible, or followed different preachers/teachers it would be greatly reduced. The second category of bashing is due to constant attempts by *some* Christians to convert others who have already said no.

As far as fairy tales... my own belief is that all religions use myth. Christianity, Pagan, Hindu, any and all of them. Myths point to what can only be spoken of by way of story. Others will disagree with that.

I did not "paint the Catholic church with the guilt of abusing children." I said facts. I said what actually happened. I also said, if you can read, that I don't think Christianity is exactly abusive but that it encourages it in those who are abusive towards children. Please go back and re-read.

No one is trying to rewrite anything. I can't go back and change the past. Neither can you. I do get frustrated that even when we show Christians where things they believe to be true are wrong, they don't ever (with very few exceptions) ever say "oh you were right, thanks I didn't know that." What usually happens is not a word is said and they launch another attack on another topic.

I will admit it is very hard for me to think that some of you are not open minded when we point things out and the only thing you keep coming back with is my priest or Pope says we should believe this...or the Bible says this..overlooking all other materials that are out there.

You and I have a history Gabby on ATS and you know what I'm talking about concerning another member. You plunged right into that thread defending that member without knowing a single thing about what was going on.

You plunged right into this thread all upset when the rest of us here were discussing things calmly and talking to each other.

I want to revise something I said earlier in this thread. The Church is emotionally abusive to kids. I'll tell you why I say that now...I'm seeing the aftereffects. People that get abused turn around and abuse others. You can't go to your priest or your Bible with your frustrations so you take it out on other people. You have wounds not being dealt with in your faith. They're speaking loud and clear. The abusive of religion would stop if the people realized what had been done to them. Take care of your own emotional wounds first.

edit on 28-12-2011 by LunaKat because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by vogon42
OK, this is not about child emotional abuse, but does backup the idea that bad things done in the name of religion are accepted since its religion

FTA

"No one was arrested because all those involved were men of God," he said.


Rather humorous video as well......these are "men of the cloth"

www.bbc.co.uk...


Whoa, lol..time for them to take a chill pill



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by LunaKat
 





I did not "paint the Catholic church with the guilt of abusing children." I said facts. I said what actually happened. I also said, if you can read, that I don't think Christianity is exactly abusive but that it encourages it in those who are abusive towards children. Please go back and re-read.



How does Christianity encourage abuse to children? Maybe to those who do not understand what was meant by "spare the rod spoil the child". That was explained to visionary by Mary saying that the rod back in that day was used for measurement.. and it implied that we needed to teach children the degree of their sinfulness. As an example.. a child who would lie about something..and let another child take the blame for something very wrong.. is not in the same degree of sin as a child who may have stolen a cookie when his mother asked him not to take cookies.

The bible says not to harm children..and let them come to Jesus.




I will admit it is very hard for me to think that some of you are not open minded when we point things out and the only thing you keep coming back with is my priest or Pope says we should believe this...or the Bible says this..overlooking all other materials that are out there.


I understand.. but there are things written that maybe incorrect. I would have to say..personally for me.. my decision to go back to my faith was based on things that have been said to visionaries ..those are the messages I hold to be true...as well as the lives of saints..such as Saint Pio.




You plunged right into this thread all upset when the rest of us here were discussing things calmly and talking to each other.


???.. really? maybe if you go back and read carefully ..you may see where some of the abuse came from? I merely stated my opinion.

I think your perceptions may be a little tainted..





I want to revise something I said earlier in this thread. The Church is emotionally abusive to kids. I'll tell you why I say that now...I'm seeing the aftereffects. People that get abused turn around and abuse others. You can't go to your priest or your Bible with your frustrations so you take it out on other people. You have wounds not being dealt with in your faith. They're speaking loud and clear. The abusive of religion would stop if the people realized what had been done to them. Take care of your own emotional wounds first.


Now thats some more find judgement.. .. yet you ask for respect?

I experienced no abuse from the church when I was younger (though I do realize many have and it was not the will of God)..

I experienced abuse in childhood and later ...from humanity and its ego and pride.. and it was in going back to my faith.. that I could find solace and healing for that abuse.

It is in the heart of Jesus..I find healing..as well as forgiveness for the hurts others have inflicted on me.

If anyone has taught me to deal with abuse from humanity.. it is Jesus. If anything has taken away the pain of abuse in my life... it is my faith in a loving and just God.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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Gabby "spare the rod and spoil the child" was left for each parent to discern what was meant by that. In parents that were already abusive it meant go ahead and take it out on your kids. You gave me your interpretation. Unfortunately that is not the interpretation that was used by those nuns I wrote about or by certain parents.

If you are talking about Padre Pio I know who you're talking about. If its another saint I don't. And I'm not at all trying to make you any other faith than the one that you choose for yourself. I have not a single problem with you as long as you do the same for me.

I already know what you wrote in the other thread. And I disagree wholeheartedly. Now there you go again, saying my perceptions are tainted...and yours are what Gabby? Angelic? Saintly? Do you and that member have a thing going on? Is this why you defend that rude person this way?

Gabby I'm not gonna retract what I said to you about emotional abuse and wounds. If you say there are none fine. I see something different in you and I've seen in others who were abused. I only wish we could speed ahead a bunch years and see if you see it the same way as you do now.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by gabby2011

How does Christianity encourage abuse to children? Maybe to those who do not understand what was meant by "spare the rod spoil the child". That was explained to visionary by Mary saying that the rod back in that day was used for measurement.. and it implied that we needed to teach children the degree of their sinfulness. As an example.. a child who would lie about something..and let another child take the blame for something very wrong.. is not in the same degree of sin as a child who may have stolen a cookie when his mother asked him not to take cookies.

The bible says not to harm children..and let them come to Jesus.




I was gonna let this slide but there is a larger issue here. First I've already explained how the church encourages child abuse. The church you go to..thats pretty odd what you've learned there. Because all sin is sin according to the church. This stuff you got about degrees, I think a number of other Christian denominations would disagree with you. Also I do know that the Catholic church does separate what they called mortal and venial sins. But you're talking small children. I ask you this..what is appropriate punishment for a child in those instances above that you mentioned? How exactly would you as a good Christian go about teaching your child their "degree of sinfulness?"

The very fact that you call something that is just kids "sinful" makes me shudder. So in addition to whatever wrong a child did..it is now your job as a parent to decide its degree of sinfulness? Come on you gotta be kidding.

edit on 28-12-2011 by LunaKat because: format



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by LunaKat
 





I already know what you wrote in the other thread. And I disagree wholeheartedly. Now there you go again, saying my perceptions are tainted...and yours are what Gabby? Angelic? Saintly? Do you and that member have a thing going on? Is this why you defend that rude person this way?


May I ask what rude person you are speaking of? I'm confused. I have nothing going on with any member..except those who choose to pray for me. I'm confused. Who is being rude by suggesting something that is not true?

I have never tried to imply that I am saintly or angelic ..never.

I am a sinner who is in constant need of mercy.... and I stumble and I fall.. I realize how much I need the grace of God..as well as His love to lead me to truth.




Gabby I'm not gonna retract what I said to you about emotional abuse and wounds. If you say there are none fine. I see something different in you and I've seen in others who were abused. I only wish we could speed ahead a bunch years and see if you see it the same way as you do now.


I only wish we could speed ahead a bunch of years as well.. to see if you would still see things the same way you do now?

You speak against judgement.. lunakat..yet you are fine with judging me..and your perceptions of abuse. The abuses I have endured came form human beings not living in the will of God as many of us have experienced.

I will never blame God for the sins of humans.. but I will go to Him for the healing.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by LunaKat
 


Well-spoken, Lunakat! star for you and applause (which you could hear if you were in my house!)


There seems to be a group of self-proclaimed "Christians" on ATS who POINTEDLY REFUSE to look at modern study among theologians, historians, scholars, researchers, and other spiritual leaders. When offered outside sources and reference materials, they say "I don't need to read ancient writings". No, they scoff and sneer and roll their eyes and laugh out loud when proven facts and well-researched documents or sources are offered up.

WHAT??!!!!

And then to say others are "bashing" them, or "lumping" them and being "cruel", and, as you say, NEVER EVER saying "huh, I did not know that, thanks! I'll look into it, maybe ask my religious leader about it"....But instead: "No no nononono....lalalalala I can't HEAR you!!" and then LOL
"You're so ignorant and stupid and wrong and such a liar and btw you're going to hell! But since I fear for your soul I'll pray for you" (and so on and so forth) "and remember that one thing you said months ago that I protested? Well, I'm going to bring it up again to show everyone how awful and mean and vile you are, and I will NOT go back and read your other posts to see what sort of person you really are, I'm going with my first impression and I will take it to my grave."

Then, they move on to another thread that deals with the very same or similar subject matter, lather, rinse, and repeat.
at the next person they can find to ridicule, condemn, and label as a "cruel judgmental liar".

If only people would be willing to read things that scare them, to give credit to scholars and experts and historians, or at the VERY LEAST, to read other members' post history and thread history (which is readily available and simple to do) to see what that member's accumulated postings contain.....
but no.

They just don't want to hear it. From anyone. Ever.

[sarcasm] Oh well, if there weren't people like that who believe their church leaders blindly, just think of all the ordained clergy who would find themselves unemployed! And if it weren't for all of us sinners, those blind followers would have no one to ridicule! Oh my! Oh noez! If everyone was "saved" and "perfect" and would just LISTEN AND BELIEVE, well, then, there wouldn't be any cause to abuse others....children AND adults

(...because, you know, those children who are unchurched are "barbarians" and those who are not beaten are "monsters"...and people who do research and look at scientific and/or overwhelming evidence from documents discovered and research done on the ground, of course, are "evil liars"... just bashing the poor meek believers...)

and where's the fun in that?
[/sarcasm]

DISCLAIMER:
I do not think all Christians are judgmental and self-righteous. And certainly there are those on ATS who are open-minded, interested, curious, and keep up with modern thinking and theology, and honestly want to do good unto others.


Lunakat, I'm going to "friend" you! And I will take the time to read your posts so that I can know your thoughts and opinions better...but I would bet we have some things in common!

Kind regards,
wildtimes



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by LunaKat
 





The very fact that you call something that is just kids "sinful" makes me shudder. So in addition to whatever wrong a child did..it is now your job as a parent to decide its degree of sinfulness? Come on you gotta be kidding.


??? A child who maliciously hurts another..needs to understand the severity of its actions. There are children who will do atrocious things.. and not nearly in the same category as a child who will steal a gumdrop from a store bin.

You say this is just kids?..how will they learn what is acceptable if they are not disciplined..and I don't mean hitting.

Is a parent supposed to say.. "oh isn't that cute.. I told little Johnny not to eat any of the cake because it is for a party tomorrow.. but he went in anyway and ate 1/3 and demolished it in the process."

Children are born with a penchant for sin .. observe toddlers playing with toys.. and you will see how when one has something....that is when some others want it.

With the proper teaching and discipline.. it is adults who teach children how to live and what is acceptable...as well as God.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by gabby2011



Gabby I'm not gonna retract what I said to you about emotional abuse and wounds. If you say there are none fine. I see something different in you and I've seen in others who were abused. I only wish we could speed ahead a bunch years and see if you see it the same way as you do now.


I only wish we could speed ahead a bunch of years as well.. to see if you would still see things the same way you do now?

You speak against judgement.. lunakat..yet you are fine with judging me..and your perceptions of abuse. The abuses I have endured came form human beings not living in the will of God as many of us have experienced.

I will never blame God for the sins of humans.. but I will go to Him for the healing.












I was referring to Colbe. You came into that thread telling me I should be grateful that he is praying for me. Obviously you did not even read back at all because if you had you would know I told Colbe over and over no to his attempts to convert me. I just wondered is all.

I have been been Pagan for 30 years. I have never looked back as I told Colbe. My soul is not up for grabs. I have a faith already and made my choice. You know its funny actually. I don't doubt that a Christian wouldn't steal my purse or someones Nikes...its actually more insidious than that. They go for the big guns..they want a grab at peoples eternal souls. Its very hard to get across the point "no."

I didn't try to blame the Christianity earlier in this thread..I openly said that its not exactly abusive (and if you had any clue what has happened in my life you would realize that I was being most generous in that. I showed more kindness than that Church ever deserves). But I do believe it now, just from all this conversation and seeing how todays Christian or at least the Catholics are.

I was in here talking already and you popped in here too but I'm not gonna keep going through this with you Gabby.



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