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Christianity, is it child emotional abuse?

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posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

No, the thread asks if "Christianity" is child abuse without giving any qualifier. The OP doesn't mention that it's only nutjobs who call themselves Christians. The title asks if "Christianity" is child abuse. So again, with the wording of the thread, how am I to know that it doesn't really mean 'Christianity' despite what the thread title and OP state?


OK, actually here's a better Idea. I will paste in my ORIGINAL post below. I see you read the title, but apparently not the first post, hopefully this will help you understand the discussion. So (if you will, please), simply read the post, and let me know if you perceive this as child emotional abuse or not. ( I was a bit on the fence about it, until responses from others in this discussion)


********* here it is *****************
Originally posted by vogon42
As a child I can remember being forced to wear clothes that choked me, so I could sit (quietly) and listen to a man rant about fire and brimstone. About how we are all sinners doomed to hell. Then he would pass around a plate, and my parents would PAY for this. I soon learned to block the preaching out so I would not allow myself to feel damned and worthless.

However, I have other friends that also had the wonderful experience of forced confession (remember we are talking about children here), it does not take a lot to make a child feel forced. Certainly a man dressed in fancy robes, standing on a pulpit 9ft above you and screaming damnation could cause a child to feel forced.

Many I know would, as children, invent things to confess.....simply out of fear of what would happen if they had nothing to confess.

Years later while attending a LE academy, we covered the emotional abuse section of the child abuse subject. From that education, it really appears that my (and others) childhood experience with christianity seriously borderlines (if it isn't actually) emotional abuse.

Just curious to know how many others out there have this same viewpoint.
edit on 25-12-2011 by vogon42 because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


The first lesson of many Eastern traditions is to avoid wounding with the tongue. This is tied to pride. In essence, until we overcome our pride, we elevate our truth over any other. To know why Eastern thinking is tied to the concrete world as a primary starting point, you need to know the origin of linguistics. Agra Bio linguistics is a good starting point to see how the idiograms of language produce the abstract reasoning that follows as our development progresses. You are living in a Western and abstract culture. To see what I am saying, a person must place themselves in the previous reality by perspective. Like I said before, when universal truth is particularized, we only perceive a narrow awareness.

Like a baby desiring milk from the breast, we only later come to realize the bounty all around us. Pride keeps the awareness narrow and close to self. Keep this in mind if growth is the aim. The first lesson in broadening awareness is to value others first. The original premise of this thread was a wounding of others by particularizing a bias which was preconceived by prejudice.




edit on 25-12-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by sacgamer25
 



To make sure that I do not come across as righteous I feel like I need to include this. I have only done one thing, something that anyone can do; I had and still have complete faith in the entire word of God presented in the Bible. I am a sinner and consider myself to be unworthy of the gifts that have been given to me. It is this feeling of being unworthy that humbles me and fills me with the desire to spread the truth.


And here we are, back on topic!! Thank God!!
you said above:
I am a sinner and consider myself to be unworthy of the gifts that have been given to me.

Why do you think you are a SINNER and UNWORTHY? Because as a youngster someone in "authority" told you so, and claimed it was what Jesus had said, and that Jesus was the ONLY son of God. You believed it, because you were an impressionable child. And it scarred you for life.

Case in point. You are fine, sacgamer, you are a human being, with a Divine soul, struggling just like the rest of us to make sense of the mysteries that perplex us.

Blessed be.



No because my own conscious convicts me. I know right from wrong just like most of you. I always since I was a child wanted to do what was right, but I always found myself making the wrong choices. No religion was necessary, all I knew for certain was God is real and he loved me.

I guess I have somehow always known that each decision has but 2 choices. The loving choice and the other choice. Each time I have stepped away from the loving choice I was aware that I was doing the wrong thing. You see if you know what you are doing is wrong and do it anyway than you are a sinner. I never felt like God was condemning me as I always knew he loved me. I knew that I was condemning myself.

I knew that this could not be the way God wanted me to live. So God has shown me how to live for him and let myself, my human will, die. I can’t fully explain what has happened to me but in every way I am a changed person. I went from being willfully disobedient, a sinner, to a person who has become able to overcome my disobedience. I am forgiven and I now understand what Christ was teaching us and it was the most loving gift that I could have ever received.

You see I am no longer struggling to make since of anything. As a matter of fact when Christ says when seeing you do not see I get that. Everything makes since to me now, I am at peace. I know that God has called me and because I know this I am certain that I will be going to my father. I have no desire to do anything that is not the will of God.

I could not have come to this by the message of fear that I would never be good enough. It was Christ who told me that I was forgiven and good enough. You see I understand this because God as a father loves me unconditionally just as I love my own child. Nothing she does could separate her from me, so I know that I cannot be separated from him.

Although I know that my father believes in me and that I am worthy for if he didn’t he would not have given me this gift. But I myself still consider myself no more worthy of this gift than anyone else. I am humbled by this gift, with no thought of pride or self righteousness.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:04 PM
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reply to post by gabby2011
 


Uh, gabby. I did not start this thread.
And I did not go back and edit posts to change what they said.

I made peace in my heart with you, and you persist in browbeating me. If you want me to further subject myself to your tongue-lashings, accusations, and piety, that is not my problem.

I have spent hours of thought and effort trying to explain myself to you. Yet you refuse to hear anything but what your perceptions tell you, and continue to accuse me of lying. That is not love, gabby.

I wholeheartedly apologize to you for whatever words I have typed that have harmed you. You alone are in charge of your perceptions. No one can "make" you feel anything. In your mind you perceive me to have done evil and to be a non-repetant liar. These perceptions are false, and based on a few things I said in reaction to the irresponsible actions of a neglectful mother, and supsequently in my own defence against the cruel and demeaning things you say to me.

It is not my intention to be cruel. I am not perfect. I am outspoken when I see evil or neglectful things done. If your salvation rests on trying to belittle and slander me for who am, just so that you can feel pious about praying for me, the lowly, hell-bent sinner, then I simply have nothing more to say to you, nor to offer you.

Peace on earth, understanding, and goodwill. Those are what I strive for, whether you believe it or not.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by gabby2011
 



Thank you.. that is exactly the point I tried to make to wildtimes at the beginning of this thread.

There are nutjobs out there who believe they are doing the right thing.. in many religions.. including pagan religions.

To dump on Christianity as a whole because of a few misguided zealots is unfair.



And I acknowledged your point, repeatedly. I do not play the "one did so all of them do" game. I have over and over stated that SOME methods of teaching Christianity are abusive.

But you don't actually read and listen to what I say. Why not is beyond me.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by wildtimes......

Yet you have done the very same thing written above ^^ above ^^ by starting this thread in the first place.


Uh....actually this thread was started by me, not by wildtime.

(take a breath and calm down.....remember, its just a discussion)



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by wildtimes......

Yet you have done the very same thing written above ^^ above ^^ by starting this thread in the first place.


Uh....actually this thread was started by me, not by wildtime.

(take a breath and calm down.....remember, its just a discussion)



oops..sorry..my mistake..

but I suggest its you who needs to calm down.. I suggest you reread your posts and then tell me they are of a calm and discussing nature..


hypocrite much?



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:38 PM
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reply to post by gabby2011
 


ok, perhaps I could stand to calm down a bit, its just that I really dislike child abusers.
So naturally it sets me off a bit. Hate the fact that anyone could treat a child like that.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





I wholeheartedly apologize to you for whatever words I have typed that have harmed you. You alone are in charge of your perceptions. No one can "make" you feel anything. In your mind you perceive me to have done evil and to be a non-repetant liar. These perceptions are false, and based on a few things I said in reaction to the irresponsible actions of a neglectful mother, and supsequently in my own defence against the cruel and demeaning things you say to me.


You have lied.. but now you are apologizing..and I accept your apology.

You have had many perceptions about me that are false as well.. and subsequently in my defense I have fought back.. which I readily admit is no the way to deal with hurt.

Once again I thank you for finally apologizing to me..and acknowledging that you have been unkind.




You alone are in charge of your perceptions. No one can "make" you feel anything.


If that is true..so why did you write the words I quote below..?


And that is evil. You know, maybe THIS will make you smile. I was in tears, sobbing the other night, trying to "make up" with you and be understood. My husband had to pull me away from the computer to calm me down. Is that how you want people to feel? I think it is.


You were blaming me for how you felt..and yet how you perceived my words were your perception.. but you sure tried to pour on the guilt for the way you chose to feel didn't you?..and then you even said that it would make me smile?

WOW.. first you tell me that I am responsible for how things make me feel..yet you can throw the guilt trip on me for how you chose to make your perceptions feel?.. and you also have the audacity to say that the feelings you chose to have would make me smile?

Where is the love in that?
















edit on 25-12-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by vogon42
reply to post by gabby2011
 


ok, perhaps I could stand to calm down a bit, its just that I really dislike child abusers.
So naturally it sets me off a bit. Hate the fact that anyone could treat a child like that.


I understand.. and I strongly believe that Jesus doesn't care for it as well...like many things He sees done in his name.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by gabby2011

Originally posted by vogon42
reply to post by gabby2011
 


ok, perhaps I could stand to calm down a bit, its just that I really dislike child abusers.
So naturally it sets me off a bit. Hate the fact that anyone could treat a child like that.


I understand.. and I strongly believe that Jesus doesn't care for it as well...like many things He sees done in his name.





You know I hope the three of you can overcome your differences. We all came to this thread curious about what was being said. I think we all agree that some of the things in this video are taken to an extreme that we do not agree with. We all see that the one thing we all understand is that love should be guiding us and we did not see love guiding those children. But if we sit here and argue, to the point of hate, are we any better? We should focus more on what we agree on and be satisfied with our ability to disagree lovingly. No one wins an argument as all will receive wounds. It is only when we react in love that anything is accomplished.

I tell my six year old this, whenever you find yourself in an argument whoever chooses love first wins. For the one that choses loves first always walks away in peace. If we choose not to love we always walk away in anger. Therefore let me encourage each of you to choose love.
edit on 25-12-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 





I tell my six year old this, whenever you find yourself in an argument whoever chooses love first wins. For the one that choses loves first always walks away in peace. If we choose not to love we always walk away in anger. Therefore let me encourage each of you to choose love.


Thank you for your encouragement..

I have chosen love at times..and at other times I allow my sinful nature to take over.. its a daily battle.. but I will continue to try and fight my sinful nature.. and try to choose love.



posted on Dec, 27 2011 @ 07:37 PM
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I think the things we do are so out of place it becomes abusive. If they'd follow what the Bible clearly means if you read it as a WHOLE DOCUMENT we'd probably avoid most/all of these problems. Take the Pharisees that wanted to kill Jesus like it technically said to in Deuteronomy for so much as lighting a fire on the Sabbath and as happened to a few people for gathering wood on the Sabbath I think while wondering in the desert or something. But Jesus pointed out the context with what the WHOLE of scripture said.
This thing about fire and brimstone, I think people confuse serious sin with something God doesn't like. Serious sin is doing what the illuminati do, and I believe in such a hell hole for them. But the intended to do that stuff. Some of them at least. I think a large portion of the illuminati underlings that are very low on the totem pole are, like I hear they are, just scared of being tortured to death if they leave so they so bad things. I think they are not as guilty becuase they are doing bad things out of fear of being tortured.
There's a neat little thing I read about how sin is determined by how much one knows it's a sin (like are you 2 or 12 years old) how much you freely chose to (like the example above with the illuminati upper and lower minions) and a couple of other common sense things I forget right now. And in classic fashion, it's told by what I've found to be an organization that has portions of it's writings are good but they don't follow it, Catholics. It's the section in the Catholic catechism I think on mortal sin and what makes something that kind of sin. I'm by no means a fan of the way we run our church, but if you think about some of the documents that get put out like the writings of the saints like Mother Teresa I think was made a saint, there is good stuff there, you just wouldn't know it to look at the way we run our church in many ways.
But those 3 or 4 main areas that determine how serious a sin is is a CLASSIC thing people don't think about. They just say 'if you do x your going to hell' well, the fact that a child can step on a shotgun at age 2 and kill someone disproves that, and proves there are circumstances you have to look at. People can do bad stuff and it be very hard for them to make good choices, and though it's no less dangrous to be around them, it's not necessarily that they want to be that evil. There are all sorts of bad ways people abuse their children these days, and there are not many ways for them to find as much good teachings as other people are blest to have when people truely teach you right from wrong. I don't think a lot of the people that fornicate, do drugs, etc. are going to hell, simply because a lot of them probably came from a great big mess of a home life. I'd be worse off than I am now too if I came from a bad family.
Anyway, that's my thoughts. Nice post.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 07:25 AM
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In the Catholic church parents were taught "spare the rod and spoil the child." So it was ok to beat your kids with a belt or shove soap in their mouths and any number of disciplinary actions. When I was going to Catholic grammar school my best friend was a very shy, quite girl. She never acted out or anything. One day the nun called on her and she didn't know the answer to the question. So the nun had her hold out her hands and beat her wrists with a ruler in front of the whole class.

Ultimately no its not Christianity that actually is child abuse. Its the people who commit it. But Christianity encouraged parents and nuns to cross that line too easily.

This was back in 60's and I don't think they can get away with it anymore. I don't really know. I left 30 years ago.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by LunaKat
In the Catholic church parents were taught "spare the rod and spoil the child." So it was ok to beat your kids with a belt or shove soap in their mouths and any number of disciplinary actions. When I was going to Catholic grammar school my best friend was a very shy, quite girl. She never acted out or anything. One day the nun called on her and she didn't know the answer to the question. So the nun had her hold out her hands and beat her wrists with a ruler in front of the whole class.

Ultimately no its not Christianity that actually is child abuse. Its the people who commit it. But Christianity encouraged parents and nuns to cross that line too easily.

This was back in 60's and I don't think they can get away with it anymore. I don't really know. I left 30 years ago.


My experience with teaching children is that the kids who's parents practice corporal punishment are far better behaved and less of a burden to me than the kids who's parents coddle them with timeouts. The years change, new kids come into class, yet it's the same thing, the kids who's parents don't believe in spanking that I'm always dreading having to work with.

Growing up when I was a child, fear of dad blistering my behind for acting up was a fantastic motivator for me to behave as I was expected to.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by LunaKat
In the Catholic church parents were taught "spare the rod and spoil the child." So it was ok to beat your kids with a belt or shove soap in their mouths and any number of disciplinary actions. When I was going to Catholic grammar school my best friend was a very shy, quite girl. She never acted out or anything. One day the nun called on her and she didn't know the answer to the question. So the nun had her hold out her hands and beat her wrists with a ruler in front of the whole class.

Ultimately no its not Christianity that actually is child abuse. Its the people who commit it. But Christianity encouraged parents and nuns to cross that line too easily.

This was back in 60's and I don't think they can get away with it anymore. I don't really know. I left 30 years ago.


My experience with teaching children is that the kids who's parents practice corporal punishment are far better behaved and less of a burden to me than the kids who's parents coddle them with timeouts. The years change, new kids come into class, yet it's the same thing, the kids who's parents don't believe in spanking that I'm always dreading having to work with.

Growing up when I was a child, fear of dad blistering my behind for acting up was a fantastic motivator for me to behave as I was expected to.


Its also the reason for kids having to go into foster homes because of abuse of that.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by Jouislin
 



This thing about fire and brimstone, I think people confuse serious sin with something God doesn't like. Serious sin is doing what the illuminati do, and I believe in such a hell hole for them. But the intended to do that stuff. Some of them at least. I think a large portion of the illuminati underlings that are very low on the totem pole are, like I hear they are, just scared of being tortured to death if they leave so they so bad things. I think they are not as guilty becuase they are doing bad things out of fear of being tortured.


That's why there are different levels/degrees of punishment in Hell. Remember when Christ was cursing different cities and told one of them that it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than it would be for that city. "More tolerable" means there are different degrees of punishment.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:29 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by LunaKat
In the Catholic church parents were taught "spare the rod and spoil the child." So it was ok to beat your kids with a belt or shove soap in their mouths and any number of disciplinary actions. When I was going to Catholic grammar school my best friend was a very shy, quite girl. She never acted out or anything. One day the nun called on her and she didn't know the answer to the question. So the nun had her hold out her hands and beat her wrists with a ruler in front of the whole class.

Ultimately no its not Christianity that actually is child abuse. Its the people who commit it. But Christianity encouraged parents and nuns to cross that line too easily.

This was back in 60's and I don't think they can get away with it anymore. I don't really know. I left 30 years ago.


My experience with teaching children is that the kids who's parents practice corporal punishment are far better behaved and less of a burden to me than the kids who's parents coddle them with timeouts. The years change, new kids come into class, yet it's the same thing, the kids who's parents don't believe in spanking that I'm always dreading having to work with.

Growing up when I was a child, fear of dad blistering my behind for acting up was a fantastic motivator for me to behave as I was expected to.


OK, I admit as a kid I did some dumb stuff, and yes I got a butt whippin for it.
BUT I do not see how a NUN beating a child in front of an entire class is religion? It sounds rather sadistic to me.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by vogon42

OK, I admit as a kid I did some dumb stuff, and yes I got a butt whippin for it.
BUT I do not see how a NUN beating a child in front of an entire class is religion? It sounds rather sadistic to me.


Yeah it was and it bothers me until this day. Worst part of it was she was already shy and that drove her more inside to herself. She was the best friend I ever had too....we lost contact after my family moved. But that nun was horribly wrong. And thats why I say Christianity isn't really child abuse but it does encourage it in people who feel children should be punished or who are already abusive.

Unfortunately some people expect children to be little adults all the time and seen but not heard.

Couple that with "honor thy mother and thy father" and you got kids who are beaten at home who don't say a word. In the main there is nothing wrong with that statement to honor your parents...the tragedy is when a kid has abusive parents. And there was a time (not sure now) that no one would interfere in another family's problems. It was hidden under a code of silence. And the church, might not have been their intention, fostered it.



posted on Dec, 28 2011 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by vogon42
 



BUT I do not see how a NUN beating a child in front of an entire class is religion?


I didn't say it was.


The other member quoted the "spare the rod, spoil the child" old saying and I was trying to share my experiences with different children who all had parents with different views/ideas on punishment. Or to put it another way, the children who's parents spared the rod are generally the monsters of the class.



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